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Did the Elves embellish a lot of their forgotten history?


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#26
LobselVith8

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The title of this thread is a bit misleading - from what I can tell of your post, you're postulating that perhaps the elves concocted their utopian homeland in order to build up elven nationalism... which is not the same thing as their plight, as oppression of elves is an objective fact.

 

That doesn't really make sense to me, either. As for the knowledge of the Dalish, Merrill points out the limitations of the knowledge held by the clans, and how they admit the gaps of what they know - she talks about how no one knows who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, she mentions they don't know the names of all the Forgotten Ones, and that they don't know everything.

 

Also, Felassan remarks on elven immortality, Arlathan, and other aspects of elven lore, and given the implication that he might have been alive at the time, it doesn't seem as though it was fabricated.

 

Also, having recently listened to the Grand Oak Tree's telling of it, didn't the elves originally own the Brecilian Forest, but had it stolen from them after being killed by human invaders?

 

Elves populated and governed the whole of Thedas - called Elvhenan in their time. Humans basically immigrated from elsewhere, arriving in Par Vollen over a millennia ago.



#27
Gervaise

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It's not so much a case of embellishing but half remembered truths.   I'm pretty sure that much of what the elven slaves in Tevinter knew about their past was an oral tradition.   Apparently someone (Felicia Day I think) suggested they wrote it down on pieces of paper.   Paper is not a very durable substance and many slaves aren't even taught to read, so I think word of mouth is far more likely.   However, things can get altered in the telling and elaborated, that is part of the storytellers art, unless, of course, they are meant to remember things by rote to pass on.  

 

Arlathan Forest is very near to modern day Tevinter and their seat of power.    Therefore it seems likely that the attack on it was sudden and severe and that is why it succeeded.    The mages were meant to have used both dragons (under their control) and the aid of demons (likely blood magic) to subdue the elves.    However, sinking the city was probably to prevent an elven counter offensive; there was something in the seat of elven power that could have been used against them.    There has been much speculation in the past on the forums about a connection between Arlathan and the Golden City, but this seems unlikely considering the Tevinter were trying to reach the latter at a much later date and this would be unlikely if they knew it was a reflection of Arlathan in the Fade.

 

After destroying Arlathan, the Tevinter seem to have worked their way south.    There was a great battle on Sundermount and likely another in the Brecillian Forest.   The Tevinter mages were probably determined to kill or capture and enslave the elves because they didn't want them mounting a resistance to them in alliance with the barbarian tribes.   At some point in all this the elves shut down the eluvians, probably to prevent the Tevinter getting hold of them.   It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that this ensured that at least one, or more, ancient elf sleepers survived, who could still be awakened.    There is a legend among the Dalish that these ancients were able to see the world, identify enemies and send spirits to inform and aid the elves but Felassan dismisses this as over romantic folk tales but if they could do this and they were the ones located in Arlathan, that could account for its total destruction by the Tevinter.     I'm pretty sure that the "immortal" elven sleepers is the origin of the story that all elves were once immortal, although it could also be connected to their gods.   If these were spirits that closely interacted with the mortal world, may be contact with them did prolong life and when they retreated back into the Fade, so "immortality" went with them.

 

I think that some of the ancient history is probably pretty close to what happened, particularly since the elven slaves probably had to witness daily, monuments and murals of their masters that recorded their victory.    So in some ways if anyone might be accused of embellishment, it would be the Tevinter.   

 

The Dalish are a different matter.    They have been trying to piece together a culture from half remembered folk stories and what they have been able to find in ruins.   Naturally they want to imagine they are restoring a glorious past but really have no idea of what that might be and have largely filled in the gaps of their knowledge with their own concept of elvishness.     Ironically they seem to have become more like the human barbarian tribes that existed at the peak of Elvhanen than the actual ancient elves themselves.  


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#28
LobselVith8

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There's also the mystery of where humanity and the Qunari came from, why, they left, and why neither party seems to have record of their original homeland.

 

There are ancient human pyramids in Par Vollen that actually depict horned figures - the qunari. I suspect the humans and the qunari originated from the same place.



#29
Ianamus

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Well, technically Zathrian was only immortal because he was tied to the curse, no? But yes, I do agree that the eldest Dreamers/most powerful mages were the only ones to be able to extend their lives via magic.

 

If I remember the explanation was that his life was connected to the lady of the forest. Since no other spirit summoning led to an extended life (that I'm aware of) I suspect it was an ancient elven magic only he was aware of.



#30
Lulupab

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If I remember the explanation was that his life was connected to the lady of the forest. Since no other spirit summoning led to an extended life (that I'm aware of) I suspect it was an ancient elven magic only he was aware of.

 

Technically Zathrian was not bound to the lady. Both Zathrian and the lady were bound to the curse and when it ended both of them died.


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#31
Roamingmachine

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You cannot embellish something you don't know the truth of.  All the elves have are scraps of stories and their culture is synthesized from that. That culture is called the Dalish, not Elvhanen. Right or wrong, as it stands, the dale elves are the current experts on elven history and until something contradicts their interpretation there are no grounds to claim that they have been in error in anything in regards to the ancient culture.


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#32
Ianamus

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Technically Zathrian was not bound to the lady. Both Zathrian and the lady were bound to the curse and when it ended both of them died.

 

I see. I still think it's suspicious that the the only life-extending form of magic we've seen was from a Dalish mage, considering their belief that all of the old elves were immortal. I'm sure there has to be some kind of link. 

 

If eternal life is as simple as cursing a group of people I don't see why Tevinter magisters haven't tried it, unless they are simply unaware of the magic involved. 



#33
animedreamer

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Doubtful.

 

Look at the Arcane Warriors. It's something completely unparalleled.

no one is questioning the strength of their magic though, i think everyones given them their credit their, it's one of the reasons why Tevinter was so interested in conquering them wasn't it?



#34
animedreamer

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Of course the elves embellish their history. It's something every culture in Thedas does, even Genitivi admits it. However, I don't think your points are the best to showcase that point,.

 

 

The Eluvians are really an elven artifact. Even Imshael, one of the Forgotten Ones, was impressed in The Masked Empire. "Always have to respect old elven magic", in his own words. However, that just means that the Tevinter Imperium grew too powerful for the elves. And they lost. That's it. It's not as if in real world history powerful and more advanced empires didn't fall under barbarians. And there's always treason and internal problems that can weaken everyone.

 

 

According to World of Thedas, 250 years passed between humanity's arrival and the elves noticing the quickening (and that's assuming the quickening existed in the first place), and even then 2000 years passed between that and the Tevinter-Arlathan war, who happened over 1800 years before DA:O. Is it so hard to believe that in all those years humans and elves didn't coexist or even help each other at one point or another?

 

 

But who claims what about whom? The Dalish themselves don't work the stone because they are nomads. They just don't have the lands, the time or the resources. However, if you are talking about old elves, we know that the former slaves founded Halamshiral in the Dales, and that there are stone tombs under Thedas built for elven nobility, according to TME. Imagining a stone-built Arlathan is not far-fetched. Also, remember that cultures like ancient Mesopotamia (mud, yes), China and Japan (liked wood a lot) didn't use stone as often as the Romans, for example, yet they were great civilizations.

 

 

Indeed, Tevinter was the only organized human society that existed at the time of the fall of Arlathan. It's not odd; waves of tribes don't develop at the same time. Actually, apart from learning blood magic from the Old Gods, it's stated several times that one of the biggest influences on Tevinter was actually the old Dwarven Empire, so, yeah, mimic the neighbours was in effect for Tevinter.

 

As for Ferelden, yes, they are considered the most barbarian of the barbarians even by other Andrastian nations, since it wasn't born as a united and organized kingdom until 5:42, centuries after Orlais, the Free Marches, the Anderfels, Antiva, Nevarra, Rivain and, of course, Tevinter.

 

The elves had to live as wandering uncivilized tribes at one point in their history; it's just that the little we know about them starts when they already had a kingdom.

 

1.) The first point wasn't about whether or not the Eluvians were real, or whether or not Elves had great magic, i would have thought that much was a given since they have a bonus to magic just for being elves, and that the Tevinter Imperium went to war with them for a reason. The point was shouldn't they have done better in defending themselves assuming some actual massive force of elves ever existed in a military capacity, as someone mentioned the Arcane Warrior suggest they did.

 

2.) actually yeah.. it is hard to believe because we know they co-existed on the same continent for all that time. When the Tevinter Imperium came to conquer them they were taking Elves and Humans prisoner. 250 years isn't even that long if you believe that Elves lived to be even a 100 before entering Uthenera the "long sleep" thats 2 generation and a half, then they said they retreated for no offensive reason than that, but after Tevinter came along and enslaved their kind their immortality was completely lost. Again assuming they were beginning to quicken even before Tevinter came, what are we reducing their mortal lives to? 50, 60 years? That's a huge step down even before Tevinter came along then, yeah it's kind of hard to believe they lost longevity in a matter centuries? Did it happen as soon as they were put on the ships, after the first generation of slaves were born? What when.. it sounds a little to far-fetched that their genetic immortality just vanished but they as a collective group all experienced it, but are indeed still considered Elves. Though my point isn't that I don't think they are Elves, but rather it's more plausible that they lived naturally longer and healthier lives not being forced into poor living conditions, being subjected to beatings, experimentation, and forced interbreeding with humanity.

 

3.) The point of that was that Master Iien (I believe that was him), quipped they built their crafts from things other than stone or metal, yes Iron Bark is impressive and there are lots of lore surrounding how well made Elven bows and arrows are. It was never a question of how come they don't use stone or metal, but rather if they are using other materials would these cities actually resemble stone and metal made buildings and so on, I didn't read TME, but even in origins the stone temple that was underground was a joint venture by Elves and Dwarves so their is a reason to pause and think that the Elves likely co-existed and traded knowledge and skills with Dwarves and it's not to far fetched to think Humans as well if there ever were a need or time, so many different structures could have been influenced by any number of races in terms of their architectural design, including Hamashiral, or any number of stone structures that the Elves claimed as theirs.  I was also saying that having lived near humans or in some cases Dwarves is hard to believe that the Elves wouldn't have been influenced by their ways of life just as much as them theirs. It is very much likely that the Elves knew little of working stone and metal until the Dwarves showed them how, hence later buildings being better built to last. Assuming the Elves just built magic wood buildings that lasted longer than actual metal and stone seems silly. They got the knowledge for better buildings from somewhere and these coventures make the best since. So Isolation from other races didn't just sprang up because humans appeared, they must have been jointly cohabitating with humans and dwarves for sometime.



#35
Master Warder Z_

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Also, having recently listened to the Grand Oak Tree's telling of it, didn't the elves originally own the Brecilian Forest, but had it stolen from them after being killed by human invaders?

 

 

The Spirit Claims that, but the Soul trapped within the essence gem tells another tale, Also the Grand Oak could have been talking about the far later struggle between the Imperium and the elves, not whatever force of destruction united the elves and humans together.

 

It isn't clear, but it is definitely an interesting bit of history.



#36
Jedi Master of Orion

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Elves had something that threatened Tevinter, whatever it was we don't know for sure but there was something and I suspect it had to do with magic.

 

They immediately followed up enslaving the elves with a massive campaign to conquer all the other peoples of Thedas so I don't really see why Arlathan would be any different.



#37
Master Warder Z_

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They immediately followed up enslaving the elves with a massive campaign to conquer all the other peoples of Thedas so I don't really see why Arlathan would be any different.

 

Maybe the Imperium just wanted the old dream?

 

I mean all Empires have it.

 

Ruling the world, One banner and all that.



#38
Heimdall

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I'm sure their utopian idea of Elvhenan is mostly the result of rose tinted goggles.

I don't think they actually invented very much though.

#39
Heimdall

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Double Post

#40
Jedi Master of Orion

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Maybe the Imperium just wanted the old dream?

 

I mean all Empires have it.

 

Ruling the world, One banner and all that.

 

Well yeah, my point was I don't think the Elvhenan was uniquely threatening beyond being the only other empire in the known world at the time.



#41
Reznore57

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They immediately followed up enslaving the elves with a massive campaign to conquer all the other peoples of Thedas so I don't really see why Arlathan would be any different.

 

They never managed to conquer the south of Thedas.

Fereldan barbarians were better than the whole elven empire....



#42
Master Warder Z_

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Well yeah, my point was I don't think the Elvhenan was uniquely threatening beyond being the only other empire in the known world at the time.

 

I suspect along similar lines, I personally think the Imperium was motivated little beyond the prospect of acquiring a new labor force and neutralizing a regional rival.



#43
RedHotElite

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I see. I still think it's suspicious that the the only life-extending form of magic we've seen was from a Dalish mage, considering their belief that all of the old elves were immortal. I'm sure there has to be some kind of link.  

 

Just wanted to pop in and say that we've, also, seen life-extending magic being used by Avernus. It was blood magic, but still.


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#44
animedreamer

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I see. I still think it's suspicious that the the only life-extending form of magic we've seen was from a Dalish mage, considering their belief that all of the old elves were immortal. I'm sure there has to be some kind of link. 

 

If eternal life is as simple as cursing a group of people I don't see why Tevinter magisters haven't tried it, unless they are simply unaware of the magic involved. 

 

The magic involved was technically blood magic, perhaps a Elven version of blood magic, but blood magic none the less. Tevinter would indeed have been interested in the exact ritual that bound the two, but whether they would have come up with a similar idea I guess is... well anyones guess. I mean we don't know how magic works in Thedas or Magical Formula/Rituals are constructed. It could be overly complicated as Morrigan explains magic can be taught in different ways, the methods she knows, and the scripts shes read are different because Flemeth taught her a different way. I would assume the same with Elves and Tevinter, even if they are using the same medium, ie Blood Magic.



#45
Ianamus

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Just wanted to pop in and say that we've, also, seen life-extending magic being used by Avernus. It was blood magic, but still.

 

I forgot about Avernus, having never played the DLC myself. 

 

I'm quite interested in what the old elven culture was actually like. The reality, that is, not the Dalish ideal.

 

The Tevinter mages can't have been that numerous back when they defeated the elves, considering such a small percentage of humans have magical ability. Makes me wonder just how powerful the ancient elves really were. 

 

I can't imagine they were even as powerful as the modern-day Qunari, given the relative ease with which they were defeated. 



#46
animedreamer

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You cannot embellish something you don't know the truth of.  All the elves have are scraps of stories and their culture is synthesized from that. That culture is called the Dalish, not Elvhanen. Right or wrong, as it stands, the dale elves are the current experts on elven history and until something contradicts their interpretation there are no grounds to claim that they have been in error in anything in regards to the ancient culture.

 

The original title of the thread was, "Did the Elves invent or imagine their plight." I changed it because commenters seemed to find his misleading, the point of the entire thread is whether or not the Elves did indeed have what they claimed to have had, were what they claimed they were, knew what they claimed they knew, but that's to round about a thread title, so unless someone has the perfect that title that doesn't offend the discussion I wished to invoke, and garners the right commenters for the discussion at hand, please offer up. Three changes or four I don't mind changing it again.



#47
Mistic

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1.) The first point wasn't about whether or not the Eluvians were real, or whether or not Elves had great magic, i would have thought that much was a given since they have a bonus to magic just for being elves, and that the Tevinter Imperium went to war with them for a reason. The point was shouldn't they have done better in defending themselves assuming some actual massive force of elves ever existed in a military capacity, as someone mentioned the Arcane Warrior suggest they did.

 

Sorry if I misundersood. My bad, I thought you were saying that, since Tevinter crushed them so easily, they couldn't have such toys or powers. The thing is, the elves had them and Tevinter still managed to beat them. That country conquered all of Thedas, that is not a small feat.

 

I mean, it's like getting amazed at how the Romans could beat Carthage back in the old days. Especially how could they manage to beat them in the sea, where the Carthaginians were supposed to be the best of the best and where the Romans didn't have almost any experience. Given the similarities between Tevinter and Rome, the parallelism may be intended.

 

2.) actually yeah.. it is hard to believe because we know they co-existed on the same continent for all that time. When the Tevinter Imperium came to conquer them they were taking Elves and Humans prisoner. 250 years isn't even that long if you believe that Elves lived to be even a 100 before entering Uthenera the "long sleep" thats 2 generation and a half, then they said they retreated for no offensive reason than that, but after Tevinter came along and enslaved their kind their immortality was completely lost. Again assuming they were beginning to quicken even before Tevinter came, what are we reducing their mortal lives to? 50, 60 years? That's a huge step down even before Tevinter came along then, yeah it's kind of hard to believe they lost longevity in a matter centuries? Did it happen as soon as they were put on the ships, after the first generation of slaves were born? What when.. it sounds a little to far-fetched that their genetic immortality just vanished but they as a collective group all experienced it, but are indeed still considered Elves. Though my point isn't that I don't think they are Elves, but rather it's more plausible that they lived naturally longer and healthier lives not being forced into poor living conditions, being subjected to beatings, experimentation, and forced interbreeding with humanity.

 

You said you didn't read TME, so it's a bit tricky to explain these things without spoiling the book too much. According to Felassan, a character from the book, Uthenera and some sort of immortality did exist... although the sleeping elves still needed some form of nourishment. Also, social classes were part of Arlathan, and it's very likely that the immortality thing was reserved to the nobility.

 

3.) The point of that was that Master Iien (I believe that was him), quipped they built their crafts from things other than stone or metal, yes Iron Bark is impressive and there are lots of lore surrounding how well made Elven bows and arrows are. It was never a question of how come they don't use stone or metal, but rather if they are using other materials would these cities actually resemble stone and metal made buildings and so on, I didn't read TME, but even in origins the stone temple that was underground was a joint venture by Elves and Dwarves so their is a reason to pause and think that the Elves likely co-existed and traded knowledge and skills with Dwarves and it's not to far fetched to think Humans as well if there ever were a need or time, so many different structures could have been influenced by any number of races in terms of their architectural design, including Hamashiral, or any number of stone structures that the Elves claimed as theirs.  I was also saying that having lived near humans or in some cases Dwarves is hard to believe that the Elves wouldn't have been influenced by their ways of life just as much as them theirs. It is very much likely that the Elves knew little of working stone and metal until the Dwarves showed them how, hence later buildings being better built to last. Assuming the Elves just built magic wood buildings that lasted longer than actual metal and stone seems silly. They got the knowledge for better buildings from somewhere and these coventures make the best since. So Isolation from other races didn't just sprang up because humans appeared, they must have been jointly cohabitating with humans and dwarves for sometime.

 

I should have the whole context to answer. Was he talking about the Dalish or the old elves? Because if it's the first, it's pretty obvious that the Dalish can't work with stone or metal, and that assuming that the elves of old had the same limitations doesn't make sense.
 



#48
animedreamer

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They never managed to conquer the south of Thedas.

Fereldan barbarians were better than the whole elven empire....

I laughed when I read this. That is a very interesting interpretation of the events. I really did get a chuckle out of that.



#49
animedreamer

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Just wanted to pop in and say that we've, also, seen life-extending magic being used by Avernus. It was blood magic, but still.

 

and his lasted centuries, even when compared to Zathrian, Avernus must have been what over 200 years old?



#50
Mistic

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They never managed to conquer the south of Thedas.

Fereldan barbarians were better than the whole elven empire....

 

Then, who built Ostagar? And the imperial highway?