147 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Then, who built Ostagar? And the imperial highway?

Tevinter.

 

EDIT: Wait, that was rhetorical wasn't it?  

[Reznore57]

I laughed when I read this. That is a very interesting interpretation of the events. I really did get a chuckle out of that.

 

Well I just checked , they conquered the south , sort of.

They managed to build the Imperial Highway ,and occupy the land .

But it seems ferelden barbarian were a pain , and never fully submit...

 

So my mistake , sorry.

 

Still I don't understand how the elves were just destroyed.

[animedreamer]

Sorry if I misundersood. My bad, I thought you were saying that, since Tevinter crushed them so easily, they couldn't have such toys or powers. The thing is, the elves had them and Tevinter still managed to beat them. That country conquered all of Thedas, that is not a small feat.

 

I mean, it's like getting amazed at how the Romans could beat Carthage back in the old days. Especially how could they manage to beat them in the sea, where the Carthaginians were supposed to be the best of the best and where the Romans didn't have almost any experience. Given the similarities between Tevinter and Rome, the parallelism may be intended.

 

 

You said you didn't read TME, so it's a bit tricky to explain these things without spoiling the book too much. According to Felassan, a character from the book, Uthenera and some sort of immortality did exist... although the sleeping elves still needed some form of nourishment. Also, social classes were part of Arlathan, and it's very likely that the immortality thing was reserved to the nobility.

 

 

I should have the whole context to answer. Was he talking about the Dalish or the old elves? Because if it's the first, it's pretty obvious that the Dalish can't work with stone or metal, and that assuming that the elves of old had the same limitations doesn't make sense.
 

 

Well thank you for the extra insight. Hmm I have to really consider getting that book then. (I hate spin-off material for this very reason.)

[Master Warder Z_]

Still I don't understand how the elves were just destroyed.

 

It's obvious to me.

 

Arlathan was sunk and then crushed under a mountain of rock and debris before being compacted into the sinkhole it is today.

[animedreamer]

I thought that was a scene out of Naruto for a second there, was about to suggest the Tevinter Magisters had super hax eye powers.

[Master Warder Z_]

I thought that was a scene out of Naruto for a second there, was about to suggest the Tevinter Magisters had super hax eye powers.

 

<.<''

[Ianamus]

The real question is how the elves failed to protect their city from the tevinter magic. We know that both anti-magic and anti-blood magic abilities exist.

 

It's particularly jarring since the Dalish claim that all elves were mages, whereas only a handful of humans are/were.

[Master Warder Z_]

The real question is how the elves failed to protect their city from the tevinter magic. We know that both anti-magic and anti-blood magic abilities exist.

 

It's particularly jarring since the Dalish claim that all elves were mages, whereas only a handful of humans are/were.

 

Think about this though however, the only real counter to Blood Magic, Aka the Litany.

 

was created by the Circle, Chantry Scholars and the Templars all pooling their knowledge together, they made an actual counter to that magic, before that though? What was there to actually gain the put the knowledge together? The Circle allowed Magic to evolve beyond it's hedge witch craft stage, Admittedly the Ancient Magics of Tevinter were impressive, and they likely had their own form of schooling, but beyond that?

 

Its word to mouth, lore passed on, For all we know, Perhaps all the elves WERE magical, but it was akin to the Asari all being biotics, only a handful every amounted to anything with them.

 

So i view it this way, the elves are attacked by a force they have no real way of countering, and likely their only offensive capabilities are outmatched.

 

The Imperium won their war for a reason i'd assume.

[Ianamus]

Think about this though however, the only real counter to Blood Magic, Aka the Litany.

 

was created by the Circle, Chantry Scholars and the Templars all pooling their knowledge together, they made an actual counter to that magic, before that though? What was there to actually gain the put the knowledge together? The Circle allowed Magic to evolve beyond it's hedge witch craft stage, Admittedly the Ancient Magics of Tevinter were impressive, and they likely had their own form of schooling, but beyond that?

 

Its word to mouth, lore passed on, For all we know, Perhaps all the elves WERE magical, but it was akin to the Asari all being biotics, only a handful every amounted to anything with them.

 

So i view it this way, the elves are attacked by a force they have no real way of countering, and likely their only offensive capabilities are outmatched.

 

The Imperium won their war for a reason i'd assume.

 

I just struggle to believe that the incredibly rigorous and strict chantry-controlled circle managed to create something (the litany) to counter blood magic when they don't even allow medical dissections of corpses due to their fear of it and an ancient culture where mages were powerful and free could not. Blood magic muct have existed back then, and the tevinter mages must have been using it against the elves for a fair amount of time before beating them back to their capital.

 

And that's not even getting into the dreamers, who could supposedly alter the real world through the fade. When demons are the source of blood magic how could the elven dreamers not see the tevinter mages coming or countered them?

 

As for the asari biotic comparison, I don't thinks its entirely accurate. In the DA verse any mage, no matter how weak, is still dangerously powerful. The untrained child conor ended up summoning a horde of demons and Meredith's young sister killed over 80 people as an abomination. If all of the elven population had magical ability I can't see how it would have been realistic for the majoirty of them to be untrained and for the elves to have no means of countering blood magic. Were that the case any small group of elven servants who'd had enough would have been able to destroy the entire empire on their own. 

 

What I'm getting at is: if they had the power to manage an entire population of mages internally (with all the demonic possessions and resorting to blood magic that would involve), how were they unable to cope with a vastly smaller number of human mages externally?

[animedreamer]

I just struggle to believe that the incredibly rigorous and strict chantry-controlled circle managed to create something (the litany) to counter blood magic when they don't even allow medical dissections of corpses due to their fear of it and an ancient culture where mages were powerful and free could not. Blood magic muct have existed back then, and the tevinter mages must have been using it against the elves for a fair amount of time before beating them back to their capital.

 

And that's not even getting into the dreamers, who could supposedly alter the real world through the fade. When demons are the source of blood magic how could the elven dreamers not see the tevinter mages coming or countered them?

 

As for the asari biotic comparison, I don't thinks its entirely accurate. In the DA verse any mage, no matter how weak, is still dangerously powerful. The untrained child conor ended up summoning a horde of demons and Meredith's sisters killed 80 people as an abomination. If all of the elven population had magical ability I can't see how it would have been realistic for the majoirty of them to be untrained and for the elves to have no means of countering blood magic. Were that the case any small group of elven servants who'd had enough would have been able to destroy the entire empire on their own. 

 

I get the feeling that the majority of Elves aren't really eager to fight, and it's the nobles who garnered most of the combative skill and ability. It's one of the things im most curious about with Ancient Elven culture. If the nobles were the leaders, warriors, most powerful mages and scholars. What did the commoner elves do? Did they do it with magic? Craftsman and similar needed artisans were probably not noble but were valued more than peasants, if Elves even had such things. I think its why some city elves pretty not to go back to the Dalish, out of fear that if they did gain enough people, some of them would likely still become the lesser or serfs to the Elven nobles.

[Ianamus]

I get the feeling that the majority of Elves aren't really eager to fight, and it's the nobles who garnered most of the combative skill and ability. It's one of the things im most curious about with Ancient Elven culture. If the nobles were the leaders, warriors, most powerful mages and scholars. What did the commoner elves do? Did they do it with magic? Craftsman and similar needed artisans were probably not noble but were valued more than peasants, if Elves even had such things. I think its why some city elves pretty not to go back to the Dalish, out of fear that if they did gain enough people, some of them would likely still become the lesser or serfs to the Elven nobles.

 

In masked empire it's outright said that lower-class elves washed the streets, mopped the floors, emptied toilets and served masters, just as with any culture. 

 

When Arlathan fell and the eluvian system was shut down many servants who had been attending to the dreamers were trapped to starve to death within the underground chambers. During the chaos of the fall of Arlathan some slit the throats of their dreamer masters as they slept, for revenge. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I just struggle to believe that the incredibly rigorous and strict chantry-controlled circle managed to create something (the litany) to counter blood magic when they don't even allow medical dissections of corpses due to their fear of it 

 

They were fighting a war against the Imperium at the time, i think a bunch of scruples went out the window once the exalted march was declared, victory was the objective then, not sticking to notions that would hinder the war effort, and you struggle truly on this? I could see even the Chantry being forced to concede that blood magic was danger enough, that it required research and study done on ways to counter act it.

 

and an ancient culture where mages were powerful and free could not. Blood magic muct have existed back then, and the tevinter mages must have been using it against the elves for a fair amount of time before beating them back to their capital.

 

Blood Magic existed according to lore when either demons or the old god Dumat offered it to the first Archon, so it presumably did exist back then, But beyond that if it did actually come from either source, and thus was conversely powered by the demons of the fade, then what exactly were the elves to do? Conduct their own research on it and come up with combat applications?

 

Do you know how long the war between Chantries lasted? And conversely do you know how long the war between the Imperium and elven kingdom lasted? I can guarantee you, the Chantry had much longer to come up with counter measures then the elves.

 

 

And that's not even getting into the dreamers, who could supposedly alter the real world through the fade. When demons are the source of blood magic how could the elven dreamers not see the tevinter mages coming or countered them?

Do you realize the Imperium had dreamers too correct? Whom is to say that theirs didn't strike first and kill the elven dreamers to mask their approach?

 

What I'm getting at is: if they had the power to manage an entire population of mages internally (with all the demonic possessions and resorting to blood magic that would involve), how were they unable to cope with a vastly smaller number of human mages externally?

 

There is nothing in the lore indicating that the elves had any notion of Blood Magic in the ancient times, so presumably that knowledge escaped them, or as i personally believe, they didn't meddle with it due to the influence it gave demons over them. As for possession? That's a relatively easy fix situation if its a singular abomination, and is cornered and run down by warriors soon after occurring, Abominations only become a major issue when they are let loose into a civil population that cannot defend themselves.

 

So i don't see much indicating that the elves would need to the massive martial strength you seem to think would.

As for the asari biotic comparison, I don't thinks its entirely accurate. In the DA verse any mage, no matter how weak, is still dangerously powerful. 

 

Incorrect, in and of themselves an untrained mage is no harder to kill then any one else, if they can not call forth the will to exert the natural energies about them.

 

 

The untrained child conor ended up summoning a horde of demons and Meredith's sisters killed 80 people as an abomination. 

 

Both of those involved a demon taking the reins, but listen to how Wynne speaks of mobs falling upon mage children should a harvest fail, the Mob usually wins.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I've always believed that the only group that one could ask about the Elves' history would be Tevinter. They are the only ones that were around when they still had a culture.

[TK514]

Of course they embellished.  Their entire original culture was wiped out when Tevinter turned them all into slaves.  All they had left were some myths and stories handed down from parent to child, some of which were eventually written, but many of which were simply oral tradition.

 

When Shartan and Andraste finally took advantage of Tevinter's misfortune, the elves had a chance to start over and create something great of themselves, and instead they clung to scraps of a dead past, making up things to fill the holes. 

 

This tendency to desperately look back, at the cost of their future, defines the elves of Thedas.

[Ianamus]

 

Blood Magic existed according to lore when either demons or the old god Dumat offered it to the first Archon, so it presumably did exist back then, But beyond that if it did actually come from either source, and thus was conversely powered by the demons of the fade, then what exactly were the elves to do? Conduct their own research on it and come up with combat applications?

 

There is nothing in the lore indicating that the elves had any notion of Blood Magic in the ancient times, so presumably that knowledge escaped them, or as i personally believe, they didn't meddle with it due to the influence it gave demons over them. As for possession? That's a relatively easy fix situation if its a singular abomination, and is cornered and run down by warriors soon after occurring, Abominations only become a major issue when they are let loose into a civil population that cannot defend themselves.

 

I seriously doubt that if blood magic existed no single elf would have ever thought to use it. There would have been elves who were tortured, spiteful, vengeful, stupid, or even all of the above. If demons were there to tempt them and blood magic provided an easy means to get revenge or to save their lives people would have turned to it, and the elves must have had a means of dealing with those people or they would have reaped absolute havoc. 

 

The only realistic reason I can see for blood magic not existing in the ancient elven culture is if it only came into existence after Dumat taught it to the first Archon. But considering it's generally learnt from demons, and that demons have little to no connection to the old gods that we are aware of... that doesn't seem particularly likely either. 

 

 

 

So i don't see much indicating that the elves would need to the massive martial strength you seem to think would.

 

 

I don't think that it means they had massive martial strength. I just can't see how a population supposedly made entirely of mages would have no means of handling blood magic. 

[Aolbain]

It's a super old oral tradition told by people with a grudge. The chance of most of it not being half-thruths, misunderstandings, conveniant erors and straight up lies is very slim.

[animedreamer]

Didn't Wynne or Alistair say the Life Gem that held the Arcane Warrior spirit, was likely formed from Blood Magic?

[Master Warder Z_]

Didn't Wynne or Alistair say the Life Gem that held the Arcane Warrior spirit, was likely formed from Blood Magic?

 

No, She compared it to their own Phylacteries. 

[Lulupab]

Elves didn't have contact with any denizens of the fade, they also didn't use blood magic (as far as we know). And we both know that both of these empowers magical abilities immensely. We also know that Tevinter controlled demons and used blood magic as well. Perhaps sometimes it backfired but we hear it several times that Tevinter dominated demons.

 

And the litany is only good before or during casting of blood magic, if for example the process of mind control is completed then the litany is useless. So its not that good of a counter but its the only thing that actually works against blood magic. 

 

Besides there are "good" things about blood magic as well. We know for a fact that it was knowledge of blood and blood magic that allowed grey wardens to become what they are (see word of Thedas). Surely you realized that you cannot simply dine on darkspawn blood and become a greywarden, its all a ritual and even then you might survive. Definitely blood magic.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think that it means they had massive martial strength. I just can't see how a population supposedly made entirely of mages would have no means of handling blood magic. 

 

Whatever your theory on Blood Magic is, it began with Tevinter, It came to the Imperium first.

 

Dollars to Doughnuts i'd bet the first usage of it elves saw, was during the invasion.

[LobselVith8]

Of course they embellished.  Their entire original culture was wiped out when Tevinter turned them all into slaves.  All they had left were some myths and stories handed down from parent to child, some of which were eventually written, but many of which were simply oral tradition.

 

When Shartan and Andraste finally took advantage of Tevinter's misfortune, the elves had a chance to start over and create something great of themselves, and instead they clung to scraps of a dead past, making up things to fill the holes. 

 

This tendency to desperately look back, at the cost of their future, defines the elves of Thedas.

 

That's misleading. The Dalish don't look back at the cost of their future - their current lifestyle is a matter of survival in what's essentially a hostile environment for them, so they can't settle and build a future for themselves when their refusal to surrender their culture and religion necessitates that they have to be on the move to avoid outsiders who threaten them. Their brethren in the Alienages are limited to impoverished and dilapidated sections of the human cities, and their roles are mainly limited to servitude. I'm not certain what you seriously expect them to do when they endure institutionalized racism generation after generation, century after century, for close to a millennia, particularly when entire populations in the cities can be subject to purges, while their nomadic counterparts are outlaws for their way of life and their religious beliefs.

 

As for their culture, the developers said the elves wrote down information on scraps of paper (when they were enslaved by the Imperium); Gaider even mentioned this specifically when he talked about how it was highly unlikely that the Creators were the same as the Old Gods (when he said that the Old Gods wanted Tevinter to destroy Arlathan).

[animedreamer]

No, She compared it to their own Phylacteries. 

Which brings up another interesting comparison that feels like blood magic, mages used phylacteries to preserve blood long past its expiring point, in order to track the bloods owner should he or she ever escape the circle.. ie using blood to magically track individuals, that seems like sanctioned blood magic to me. using the power inherent in ones own blood to manipulate or in this case collar oneself seems entirely like blood magic.

[Gervaise]

The idea that all elves were magical is I think something fanciful that the Keepers have cultivated in order to justify their leadership.    So far as I am aware Keepers are always mages and the guardians of lore.   This means they control the idea of what constitutes a "true elf".  

 

The evidence in Masked Empire is that there were different classes of elves and the servants seemed pretty mundane to me.   If they did have magic it must have been very simple, just as some mages can "barely light a candle" with their magic.    Briala had grown up as a city elf with the notion of a mythical world where everything was done by magic.    May be later generations just assumed that all their ancestors were magical, just as they believe all their ancestors were immortal.    I think the truth is there was a ruling elite who were magical and able to prolong their lifespan, possibly by joining themselves to spirits.     When tensions started to rise between humans and elves, the spirits withdrew, leaving the elves now with shortened lifespans.    So they started to isolate themselves in the hope of attracting the beneficent spirits back.   These spirits were in fact the Creators and that is why the withdrawal of their gods corresponds with the arrival of humans and loss of immortality.    

 

Just as we only tend to remember the identities and attributes of kings and generals, so the elves only remembered the attributes of their ruling elite but started applying them to everyone; essentially the humans are to blame so far as the elves are concerned not matter what the actual truth may be.

[Gervaise]

I'm sure it was not an actual developer who said they wrote things on scraps of paper and using a living person, passing on traditions by word of mouth, would be far more durable than scraps of paper.  

 

Naturally the Creators aren't the same as the Old Gods.   As Gaider says the Old Gods aided the Imperium in destroying the elves.    If anything they were the Forgotten Ones, the enemies of the Creators.    Fact is all these various "gods" are probably spirits of one form or another, just more powerful than the ones we normally encounter.  

[Master Warder Z_]

Of course they embellished.  Their entire original culture was wiped out when Tevinter turned them all into slaves.  All they had left were some myths and stories handed down from parent to child, some of which were eventually written, but many of which were simply oral tradition.

 

When Shartan and Andraste finally took advantage of Tevinter's misfortune, the elves had a chance to start over and create something great of themselves, and instead they clung to scraps of a dead past, making up things to fill the holes. 

 

This tendency to desperately look back, at the cost of their future, defines the elves of Thedas.

 

 Oh my.