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Did the Elves embellish a lot of their forgotten history?


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#76
LobselVith8

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I'm sure it was not an actual developer who said they wrote things on scraps of paper and using a living person, passing on traditions by word of mouth, would be far more durable than scraps of paper.  

 

With all due respect, you would be mistaken. The developers stated that elves wrote down information on scraps of paper; Gaider even referenced it when he was discussing how the Creators were unlikely to be the same as the Old Gods who were worshiped by the Imperium.

 

Naturally the Creators aren't the same as the Old Gods.   As Gaider says the Old Gods aided the Imperium in destroying the elves.    If anything they were the Forgotten Ones, the enemies of the Creators.    Fact is all these various "gods" are probably spirits of one form or another, just more powerful than the ones we normally encounter.  

 

The topic was addressed by Gaider in a thread where some posters speculated that this could be the case. Given what Zathrian said about the Old Gods, I'm not so sure the Old Gods were the Forgotten Ones; I'm also doubtful the Creators were simply spirits.



#77
EmperorSahlertz

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The Elves didn't exactly fabricate it. They did have an acient continent spanning nation, and it was destroyed by the Tevinter. That is not in question. However, the Elves of Arlathan was probably not the utopia some Dalish would have you believe, and of course they embelish the story.


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#78
DuskWanderer

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It truly depends on what you meant by "embellish". I think the elves did demonize Tevinter, and gloss over their own failings


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#79
cjones91

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I think the whole 'We were immortal and humans were the reason that's not the case now' is embellishing somewhat.


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#80
LOLandStuff

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I say the ancient elves were up to no good, majorly screwed up, and threw all the blame on humans because "we can do no harms...QQ" 

That explains the puppy eyes from DA II, to feel sorry for them.



#81
LobselVith8

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It truly depends on what you meant by "embellish". I think the elves did demonize Tevinter, and gloss over their own failings

 

Tevinter enslaved all the elves and sank Arlathan with blood magic. That alone is sufficient reason for the elves to condemn the Imperium.


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#82
LOLandStuff

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Does Tevinter even mention anything about curbstomping Arlathan? Because all I remember is only elves b*****n' about it. And even if Tevinter acknowledges it, I'm sure it'll be a big fat lie and reason to brag about.

I still believe elves screwed up by summoning a demon who got loose and did it for the lulz. 



#83
cjones91

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Does Tevinter even mention anything about curbstomping Arlathan? Because all I remember is only elves b*****n' about it. And even if Tevinter acknowledges it, I'm sure it'll be a big fat lie and reason to brag about.

I still believe elves screwed up by summoning a demon who got loose and did it for the lulz. 

It's common knowledge that Tevinter taught the ancient elves blood magic and then betrayed them by sinking Arlathan into the sea while gatthering up the survivors as slaves.



#84
TK514

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That's misleading. The Dalish don't look back at the cost of their future - their current lifestyle is a matter of survival in what's essentially a hostile environment for them, so they can't settle and build a future for themselves when their refusal to surrender their culture and religion necessitates that they have to be on the move to avoid outsiders who threaten them. Their brethren in the Alienages are limited to impoverished and dilapidated sections of the human cities, and their roles are mainly limited to servitude. I'm not certain what you seriously expect them to do when they endure institutionalized racism generation after generation, century after century, for close to a millennia, particularly when entire populations in the cities can be subject to purges, while their nomadic counterparts are outlaws for their way of life and their religious beliefs.

 

As for their culture, the developers said the elves wrote down information on scraps of paper (when they were enslaved by the Imperium); Gaider even mentioned this specifically when he talked about how it was highly unlikely that the Creators were the same as the Old Gods (when he said that the Old Gods wanted Tevinter to destroy Arlathan).

 

Exactly.  They wander a continent they are unwelcome and outlawed in, scattered like fleas on a dog, rather than uniting, planning and moving forward.  TME pretty much spells out the Dalish plans for a comeback "Let the humans all die, then take over what's left behind".  Due to their insistence on clinging to a past that is as much (or more) myth and legend as it is reality, they have allowed themselves to be scattered, hunted, and brought to ruin.  They are not even a united people amongst their own clans anymore.  They're done.  All because they refused to look outward and forward.

 

Had they not been insular, self centered, and mired in the past, Arlathan might have been ready for Tevinter.  Instead they were crushed and enslaved.

Had they not been insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, the Dales might have forged friendships and allies with the rest of Thedas, and had support when Orlais came calling.  Instead, they were crushed and scattered.

If they weren't currently insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, this time on a clan by clan level, they might be a united people, ready to take steps to move away from a continent that looks down on them as little better than bandits and savages, and on to somewhere else on the planet where they don't have several thousands years reputation and prejudice for being losers. 

 

Looking forward would be doing something like what you yourself have suggested, and moving north of the Anderfels into territory unwanted and unsettled by the humans of the Chantry nations.  Instead, they would rather scurry around a subcontinent dominated by people who would as soon exterminate them as tolerate them, and mope about the past and the unfairness of it all. 
 

The elves of Dragon Age are defined by focus on an incomplete past that may not even be real and doing nothing to prepare for the future.  That's what they do.


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#85
cjones91

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Exactly.  They wander a continent they are unwelcome and outlawed in, scattered like fleas on a dog, rather than uniting, planning and moving forward.  TME pretty much spells out the Dalish plans for a comeback "Let the humans all die, then take over what's left behind".  Due to their insistence on clinging to a past that is as much (or more) myth and legend as it is reality, they have allowed themselves to be scattered, hunted, and brought to ruin.  They are not even a united people amongst their own clans anymore.  They're done.  All because they refused to look outward and forward.

 

Had they not been insular, self centered, and mired in the past, Arlathan might have been ready for Tevinter.  Instead they were crushed and enslaved.

Had they not been insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, the Dales might have forged friendships and allies with the rest of Thedas, and had support when Orlais came calling.  Instead, they were crushed and scattered.

If they weren't currently insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, this time on a clan by clan level, they might be a united people, ready to take steps to move away from a continent that looks down on them as little better than bandits and savages, and on to somewhere else on the planet where they don't have several thousands years reputation and prejudice for being losers. 

 

Looking forward would be doing something like what you yourself have suggested, and moving north of the Anderfels into territory unwanted and unsettled by the humans of the Chantry nations.  Instead, they would rather scurry around a subcontinent dominated by people who would as soon exterminate them as tolerate them, and mope about the past and the unfairness of it all. 
 

The elves of Dragon Age are defined by focus on an incomplete past that may not even be real and doing nothing to prepare for the future.  That's what they do.

When the present has nothing to off to a group that lost everything sometimes clinging to the past works.


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#86
Lulupab

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Does Tevinter even mention anything about curbstomping Arlathan? Because all I remember is only elves b*****n' about it. And even if Tevinter acknowledges it, I'm sure it'll be a big fat lie and reason to brag about.
I still believe elves screwed up by summoning a demon who got loose and did it for the lulz.

 
Its actually a confirmed fact that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and Elvhenan.

Although its revealed in Masked Empire that Ancient elves were not so much different than Tevinter and had ruthless class system that tormented the lowest class and the empire was ruled by dreamers who were much like Magisters of Tevinter.
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#87
animedreamer

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Exactly.  They wander a continent they are unwelcome and outlawed in, scattered like fleas on a dog, rather than uniting, planning and moving forward.  TME pretty much spells out the Dalish plans for a comeback "Let the humans all die, then take over what's left behind".  Due to their insistence on clinging to a past that is as much (or more) myth and legend as it is reality, they have allowed themselves to be scattered, hunted, and brought to ruin.  They are not even a united people amongst their own clans anymore.  They're done.  All because they refused to look outward and forward.

 

Had they not been insular, self centered, and mired in the past, Arlathan might have been ready for Tevinter.  Instead they were crushed and enslaved.

Had they not been insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, the Dales might have forged friendships and allies with the rest of Thedas, and had support when Orlais came calling.  Instead, they were crushed and scattered.

If they weren't currently insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, this time on a clan by clan level, they might be a united people, ready to take steps to move away from a continent that looks down on them as little better than bandits and savages, and on to somewhere else on the planet where they don't have several thousands years reputation and prejudice for being losers. 

 

Looking forward would be doing something like what you yourself have suggested, and moving north of the Anderfels into territory unwanted and unsettled by the humans of the Chantry nations.  Instead, they would rather scurry around a subcontinent dominated by people who would as soon exterminate them as tolerate them, and mope about the past and the unfairness of it all. 
 

The elves of Dragon Age are defined by focus on an incomplete past that may not even be real and doing nothing to prepare for the future.  That's what they do.

 

Oww.

 

still... kingofpopcorn1.gif

 

Seriously, I need to read TME then... I need to know why the Dalish are falling a part so much.



#88
TK514

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When the present has nothing to off to a group that lost everything sometimes clinging to the past works.

 

You'd think that 700 years would be enough time to establish "This isn't working".



#89
TheJediSaint

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You'd think that 700 years would be enough time to establish "This isn't working".

The Dalish are just taking the Micky Mouse doctrine to its logical extreme.



#90
LobselVith8

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Exactly.  They wander a continent they are unwelcome and outlawed in, scattered like fleas on a dog, rather than uniting, planning and moving forward.  TME pretty much spells out the Dalish plans for a comeback "Let the humans all die, then take over what's left behind".

 

We know that TME featured an atypical clan who exhibited behavior that was contradictory to the ethos of the Dalish, as well as the behavior of Dalish clans we have read about in lore, and who we encountered in the story.

 

Due to their insistence on clinging to a past that is as much (or more) myth and legend as it is reality, they have allowed themselves to be scattered, hunted, and brought to ruin.  They are not even a united people amongst their own clans anymore.  They're done.  All because they refused to look outward and forward.

 

Our speculation about elven lore aside, the Dalish refuse to surrender their religion and their culture, making the clans targets of Andrastian humans and outlaws as a result. Their city cousins don't fare much better under human rule, despite their ancestors converting to the Andrastian faith. I'd say that bigotry, intolerance, and racism is the reason why the elves have suffered.

 

Had they not been insular, self centered, and mired in the past, Arlathan might have been ready for Tevinter.  Instead they were crushed and enslaved.

Had they not been insular, self-centered, and mired in the past, the Dales might have forged friendships and allies with the rest of Thedas, and had support when Orlais came calling.  Instead, they were crushed and scattered.

 

Considering that elven lore reads that humans also introduced diseases to the Arlathan elves (similar to the Europeans who introduced diseases to the Native Americans), I'd call that into question. As for the Dales, considering how the Dalish talk about the human nations growing cold towards them because they followed the Creators and not the Makers, I'm not certain how many Andrastian kingdoms would have sided with "heathens" against the seat of Chantry power.

 

Looking forward would be doing something like what you yourself have suggested, and moving north of the Anderfels into territory unwanted and unsettled by the humans of the Chantry nations.  Instead, they would rather scurry around a subcontinent dominated by people who would as soon exterminate them as tolerate them, and mope about the past and the unfairness of it all. 

 

The Donarks is populated by people who drink the blood of their fallen enemies.

 

The elves of Dragon Age are defined by focus on an incomplete past that may not even be real and doing nothing to prepare for the future.  That's what they do.

 

The Dalish and the Andrastian elves are focused more on surviving day to day, whether it's in nomadic clans who have to be wary of outsiders, or the unfortunate denizens of the Alienage who have to scrape by on meager earnings as servants of humans. Building a future for themselves would be more plausible if the elves had their own homeland, where they could actually focus on building for the future, rather than just surviving.


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#91
cjones91

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You'd think that 700 years would be enough time to establish "This isn't working".

The present isn't either,the elves are still treated like garbage now and will continue to be in the near future.At least in the past they had something to  be proud of.



#92
AresKeith

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Its actually a confirmed fact that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and Elvhenan.

Although its revealed in Masked Empire that Ancient elves were not so much different than Tevinter and had ruthless class system that tormented the lowest class and the empire was ruled by dreamers who were much like Magisters of Tevinter.

 

Guess that's where Tevinter gets it from



#93
animedreamer

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The Dalish are just taking the Micky Mouse doctrine to its logical extreme.

 

Could you elaborate on what that means.. I tried to google it but the closest thing i got was a business law reference.



#94
TK514

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The present isn't either,the elves are still treated like garbage now and will continue to be in the near future.At in the past they had something to proud of.

 

Then it would behoove them to stop looking at the past and start planning for the future.  Perhaps a long, species-wide vacation to somewhere else.  Maybe somewhere where they have a chance on not being dominated by cultures that have proven to be unable to tolerate them for over two thousand years.



#95
Lulupab

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Guess that's where Tevinter gets it from

 

But notice that dreamers are very rare and elves had many of them so either:

 

1. Elves have a much higher chance of being dreamers

2. All Elves were mages so even though the chance is low there were still many dreamers among them.


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#96
LobselVith8

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Seriously, I need to read TME then... I need to know why the Dalish are falling a part so much.

 

The clans live on a continent where the Chantry criminalized their religion, and the human lords and lynch mobs of the Andrastian nations drive the clans away when they stay too long in one region. There are also the templars who pursue the clans for their mages, and we know Ariane protected her clan from at least one templar; Merrill explains that templars are part of the reason why the clans are nomadic. These issues are why the Dalish have to focus on surviving day to day, rather than settling down somewhere and building a future for themselves.


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#97
AresKeith

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But notice that dreamers are very rare and elves had many of them so either:

 

1. Elves have a much higher chance of being dreamers

2. All Elves were mages so even though the chance is low there were still many dreamers among them.

 

I was talking about the way they acted 



#98
Hanako Ikezawa

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The two things I think the elves have embellished was their society being an utopia and them being immortal.



#99
Lulupab

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I think even the Elves know that Elvhenan was utopia compared to their current living conditions and not in general.

 

The Elven lore itself mentions that the trickster made them fall. Ancient elves worshipped a pantheon of five gods and four goddesses. Their religion also mentions another set of gods called the "Forgotten Ones", the enemies of the elven pantheon. Only Fen'Harel, the trickster god of the elven pantheon, was able to walk freely between both groups. Elven legend attributes the failure of their gods to intervene in the fall of Elvhenan to Fen'Harel, who, it is claimed, deceived both the elven pantheon and the Forgotten Ones, trapping the former away in heaven and the latter in the abyss, where they could no longer influence events in the mortal world.

 

So in a sense Elven gods had the power to intervene in mortal world and actually had full physical contact with the dreamers. The elves counted on their gods to fight Tevinter blood magic, demons and even dragons but when their gods became trapped they actually lost hope and started to flee instead of fighting back, well most of them anyway.


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#100
Master Warder Z_

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The present isn't either,the elves are still treated like garbage now and will continue to be in the near future.At least in the past they had something to  be proud of.

 

Pfft, an Empire that crumbled inside two decades against a better Empire.