26 réponses à ce sujet

[Isac23]

So, apparently the relays were created by the Reapers to accelerate the rate in which civilizations advance.

 

I always understood how this made sense with ME1 Reapers, where Sovereign says "Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance, and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished."

 

It made sense to me that the mass relays would have been created to accelerate the rate in which civilizations advance because the Reapers wanted to harvest civilizations when they reached their apex. This would ensure civilizations would reach their apex quicker, meaning more harvests, meaning more Reapers.

 

 

HOWEVER bioware didn't seem to like the direction where the Reapers were going in ME1 and changed their motive to "we exist to bring order to the organic/synthetic conflict"... my only question is whether the creation of the mass relays still makes any sense in this context? Am I missing something?

 

Because it looks to me like if they truly wanted to resolve the organic/synthetic conflict then creating all this technology that would make it so that civilizations advanced much faster than they should have, and thus had capabilities of creating synthetics much faster than they should have, should be the LAST thing the Reapers would have ever done.

 

Do we just chalk this down to more terrible writing?

Or can anyone make sense of it?

[AlanC9]

Relays advancing the civilizations never made sense in the first place. You can reach some star systems in minutes rather than days, but how does this help? You contact other intelligent life faster, but the best that happens there is that everyone gets uplifted to match the tech leader.

If the Reapers really wanted to speed up the cycles, they should have started by giving agriculture to Cro-Magnon man. And the turian equivalents, etc. (Note that the asari apparently got agriculture and so forth from the Protheans, but screwed around for 45,000 years before getting their act together.)

[CronoDragoon]

The point wasn't to accelerate technology, it was to provide an extremely convenient technology around which the cycles would base their galactic infrastructure, making it very easy for the Reapers to jump in, take the Citadel, and shut down the relay network. This destroyed supply lines, divided the galactic forces, and won the war before it ever really started.

[Isac23]

The point wasn't to accelerate technology, it was to provide an extremely convenient technology around which the cycles would base their galactic infrastructure, making it very easy for the Reapers to jump in, take the Citadel, and shut down the relay network. This destroyed supply lines, divided the galactic forces, and won the war before it ever really started.

 

That makes more sense actually.

I still think the possible war benefits the relays would have provided wouldn't have been enough to justify the whole acceleration of technology bit, because even if that wasn't the point that was what ended up happening.

 

But looking at it that way does make it somewhat understandable.

Cheers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The point of the Relay system I think was to provide a trap of sorts that organics would utilize because of it's convenience, pooling together information in a single spot that the Reapers could immediately take. As we see from Ilos (and possibly Feros) any sort of unknown data puts a huge damper on their plans of cleaning up the galaxy so that information is key to them.

 

The convenience of the Relay network also provides an easy way to build a galactic infrastructure on, dramatically increasing the chances that the organics come to exclusively rely on the Relays for transportation and communication making them much easier to deal with.

 

Technology wise I think this insures that they don't start scampering off into the vastness of space; the Quarians, who are about as masterful at scampering as any race could be can only last a few weeks by themselves. This probably eliminates the success (although not quite) of any organic plan to launch an ark into space to find a new world or survive until the Reapers are gone.

 

I don't know if this is what the developers had intended -- I honestly don't know anymore with this bunch. But it helps me sleep at night knowing that the Reapers plan to crush us is reasonably solid.

[Han Shot First]

The odd thing about ME3 is that the Reapers seemingly deviate from the game plan they've been using for eons. Rather than attacking the Citadel and shutting down the relay network, isolating worlds and preventing them from reinforcing each other, the Reapers allow the civilizations of the galaxy to continue using the relay network.

 

Anyone got a good head canon reason on why that is?

 

The Cerberus Citadel coup may have been an attempt at that, considering Cerberus was the Reapers' indoctrinated pawns. But why no direct attack by the Reapers once that had failed?

[SporkFu]

The odd thing about ME3 is that the Reapers seemingly deviate from the game plan they've been using for eons. Rather than attacking the Citadel and shutting down the relay network, isolating worlds and preventing them from reinforcing each other, the Reapers allow the civilizations of the galaxy to continue using the relay network.

Anyone got a good head canon reason on why that is?

The Cerberus Citadel coup may have been an attempt at that, considering Cerberus was the Reapers' indoctrinated pawns. But why no direct attack by the Reapers once that had failed?

I honestly think it was a case of the reapers saying to the galaxy, "You think you've outsmarted us? Okay smart guys, we'll play it your way. Show us what you got."

Thing is, let's say the protheans fought extinction for the longest of all the cycles - and I say this because we really dunno much about the other cycles, except the Leviathan.

Anyway, the prothean harvest only took a few centuries... Leaving the the reapers with over roughly 49,000 years worth of time to kill. They've got nothing but time to fulfill their purpose... And time is irrelevant to them anyway.

So they just rolled with it. If our cycle was the first to keep the reapers from taking the citadel at the start, maybe the catalyst directed the reapers to delay that bit for a while, to see how far the variables would be altered.

Hell, maybe the reapers had grown complacent, and looked forward to a new challenge.

[JamesFaith]

The odd thing about ME3 is that the Reapers seemingly deviate from the game plan they've been using for eons. Rather than attacking the Citadel and shutting down the relay network, isolating worlds and preventing them from reinforcing each other, the Reapers allow the civilizations of the galaxy to continue using the relay network.

 

Anyone got a good head canon reason on why that is?

 

The Cerberus Citadel coup may have been an attempt at that, considering Cerberus was the Reapers' indoctrinated pawns. But why no direct attack by the Reapers once that had failed?

 

It is only my personal theory but I think that Citadel would be too much damaged during frontal assault. By Codex its outer shell is nearly impenetrable and their "insiders" - Keepers - no longer listen to them.

 

But thanks to attack on Batarian and Human space there is steady flow of refugees where they can hide indoctrinated agents for attack from inside. And because Reapers haven't agents on Citadel like Cerberus, they can't bring enough weapons through Citadel security and have to amass huge number of indoctrinated agents to overwhelm C-Sec and other people on board. And for this they need a lot of time.

 

Sure, its only my theory, but it works for me enough.

[JamesFaith]

And for topic.

 

I think that by offering us "easy way" for interstellar travel, Reapers suppressed are own research because suddenly there is no need to find something own and maybe even better. Like f.e. more effective FTL engines in Reapers ships.

 

It reminds me short-story by Harry Turtledove "The road not taken". Earth is in 2036 attacked by Roxolan empire, but when invaders have hyperengines and antigravity, rest of their technology in on level of 18th century (muskets and such) and they are still most edvanced race in their known universe. When we crushed them, our scientist found out that there was ridiculously easily way how to reach hyperspace, but we simply missed it and never found it and because of that we concentrated more on other science and become more advanced in every other aspect of war technology then Roxolan. 

[Farangbaa]

I honestly think it was a case of the reapers saying to the galaxy, "You think you've outsmarted us? Okay smart guys, we'll play it your way. Show us what you got."

Thing is, let's say the protheans fought extinction for the longest of all the cycles - and I say this because we really dunno much about the other cycles, except the Leviathan.

Anyway, the prothean harvest only took a few centuries... Leaving the the reapers with over roughly 49,000 years worth of time to kill. They've got nothing but time to fulfill their purpose... And time is irrelevant to them anyway.

So they just rolled with it. If our cycle was the first to keep the reapers from taking the citadel at the start, maybe the catalyst directed the reapers to delay that bit for a while, to see how far the variables would be altered.

Hell, maybe the reapers had grown complacent, and looked forward to a new challenge.

They change it up once and they lose.

Poor Reapers.

[themikefest]

The odd thing about ME3 is that the Reapers seemingly deviate from the game plan they've been using for eons. Rather than attacking the Citadel and shutting down the relay network, isolating worlds and preventing them from reinforcing each other, the Reapers allow the civilizations of the galaxy to continue using the relay network.

 

Anyone got a good head canon reason on why that is?

 

The Cerberus Citadel coup may have been an attempt at that, considering Cerberus was the Reapers' indoctrinated pawns. But why no direct attack by the Reapers once that had failed?

My guess is that the signal that the Prothean scientists used to prevent the reapers from using the Citadel in our cycle, also effected the signal to turn the relay network on and off. So they said to heck with the Citadel and went straight for the homeworlds.

 

The coup from Cerberus didn't make much sense. It would've made more sense had it been attempted after the Thessia mission. Have Thessia in place of the coup and then have the coup take place after the Geth/Quarian missions.

[KaiserShep]

Only thing about the coup is that if they had it occur later in the game, the conflict between Shepard and the VS would have to be resolved some other way beforehand, because it would be seriously annoying to have this character harbor some sort of mistrust the entire game. This is one of the reasons why I am glad that the Thessia decision that made the rounds around here didn't make it to the game, because my frustration would see the VS' end once and for all.

[bunch1]

Personally I think the mass relays are used to focus organics on the mass effect.  It becomes central to every part of society, including war.  Mass accelerators and kinetic barriers are the end result and the reapers have ships designed to have a bigger gun to punch through them and stronger shields to keep the organics from hurting them.  If left to there own devices some civilization may just go wild with energy weapons that would bypass their barriers and cut right through them and that would ruin the harvest.

[Arcian]

Do we just chalk this down to more terrible writing?

Or can anyone make sense of it?

Yes and no. This is the price for Super MAC's involvement.

[Display Name Owner]

It makes perfect sense I'd say. Having the Relays means the species that rise up all follow guided paths in their exploration of the galaxy, so the Reapers can easily keep track of where they've been so they now where to go and destroy things. It gives the Reapers a nice easily navigable map to follow come harvest time. Plus it ensures the civilisations all find the Citadel which is the big trap in the Reapers' usual MO. What doesn't make sense is that they didn't use it this time, but that's another thread. Basically, without the relays the whole harvest would just be messy. They just keep things neat and tidy.

 

When it comes to advancing species more quickly, I don't imagine the Reapers actually care how often they have to slaughter guys by the billions. as long as the whole process is ordered. The Catalyst's, um... "logic" is that organics creating synthetics is an inevitability so whether it happens sooner or later doesn't really matter as long as the Reapers sort it out.

[ZipZap2000]

It really doesn't matter how you look at it if they shut down the relays there would have been no final battle with a united fleet pouring through the relay to retake the Citadel, which conveniently was no longer impenetrable because they decided to install an elevator in the middle of one of their most brutally contested battlefields.

 

"The fighting here has been some of the worst on the planet"

 

So in the end this comes down to bad writing, the final battle should taken place with the reapers attacking the citadel in an attempt to break the fleets that were mobilising there not to make your way to a beam in London. Not what we got but the game was fun even if it was full of plot holes and super advanced but utterly stupid robots.

[TheEternalStudent]

They're main reason was to shape the nature of our growth. They knew we'd discover the citadel, and build along the mass relay network. This means when it comes time to Harvest they don't have to do recon to find out where our transport hubs are, just about every system with a Mass Relay probably has some sort of civilization, with the chances decreasing as you got farther and farther from them.

[Farangbaa]

Don't they move the relays around between cycles? i.e. place them near near-spaceflight cultures?

Somehow that information got in my head, but it might be headcanon. Or someone else's headcanon thrust into mine.

[Reorte]

Building relays shouldn't stop development, it'll advance it. No species capable of enough technology to get off its homeworld and find the relays will resist trying to work out how they work and adapt them to doing exactly what they want.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Don't they move the relays around between cycles? i.e. place them near near-spaceflight cultures?

Somehow that information got in my head, but it might be headcanon. Or someone else's headcanon thrust into mine.

 

I think there happen to enough Relays that any species is bound to find one at least in their system.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I honestly think it was a case of the reapers saying to the galaxy, "You think you've outsmarted us? Okay smart guys, we'll play it your way. Show us what you got."

Thing is, let's say the protheans fought extinction for the longest of all the cycles - and I say this because we really dunno much about the other cycles, except the Leviathan.

Anyway, the prothean harvest only took a few centuries... Leaving the the reapers with over roughly 49,000 years worth of time to kill. They've got nothing but time to fulfill their purpose... And time is irrelevant to them anyway.

So they just rolled with it. If our cycle was the first to keep the reapers from taking the citadel at the start, maybe the catalyst directed the reapers to delay that bit for a while, to see how far the variables would be altered.

Hell, maybe the reapers had grown complacent, and looked forward to a new challenge.

 

They had a big board meeting after the last one, but Sovereign was left out of it because it was in the galaxy.

 

Starbrat: "You know guys, we've been doing this over a billion years and it's the same every single time. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. We go in, herd 'em up, and slaughter 'em."

 

Reapers: "Yeah."

 

Starbrat: "It's not really any fun is it?"

 

Reapers: "No."

 

Starbrat: "What do you say we change it up a little, you know for sport?"

 

Harbinger: "Uh, I don't know if that's such a good idea."

 

Starbrat: "I wasn't asking."

 

Reaper 15,231: "What were you thinking, boss?"

 

Starbrat: "I was thinking we just go around and come in all at once and roll over the galaxy in a giant blitz. Let them scramble around trying to organize. Let them try to build that stupid Crucible thing. Look we've got over 100,000 of us with all the destroyers, and we're nearly invulnerable. They won't stand a chance. It'll be fun, guys."

 

Harbinger: "Uh, I dunno, boss."

 

Starbrat: "I wasn't asking. So let's vote on it."

 

Harbinger: "Uh, you control us, so how is that a fair vote."

 

Starbrat: "It'll be unanimous. We'll have fun."

[Farangbaa]

'It'll be unanimous'

 

Need clean underwear now.

[SporkFu]

They had a big board meeting after the last one, but Sovereign was left out of it because it was in the galaxy.

Starbrat: "You know guys, we've been doing this over a billion years and it's the same every single time. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. We go in, herd 'em up, and slaughter 'em."

Reapers: "Yeah."

Starbrat: "It's not really any fun is it?"

Reapers: "No."

Starbrat: "What do you say we change it up a little, you know for sport?"

Harbinger: "Uh, I don't know if that's such a good idea."

Starbrat: "I wasn't asking."

Reaper 15,231: "What were you thinking, boss?"

Starbrat: "I was thinking we just go around and come in all at once and roll over the galaxy in a giant blitz. Let them scramble around trying to organize. Let them try to build that stupid Crucible thing. Look we've got over 100,000 of us with all the destroyers, and we're nearly invulnerable. They won't stand a chance. It'll be fun, guys."

Harbinger: "Uh, I dunno, boss."

Starbrat: "I wasn't asking. So let's vote on it."

Harbinger: "Uh, you control us, so how is that a fair vote."

Starbrat: "It'll be unanimous. We'll have fun."

Reaper 15,231: Awesome use of power boss.
Reaper 9,742: brown- noser.
Starbrat: Shut up, you. *to reaper 15,321* I think I've found my new Vanguard of Destruction. What's your name?
Reaper 15,231: Uhhh... I am Legion.
Reaper 9,742: It's a dumb-ass too. That name's been taken.
Reaper 15,231: D'Oh.
Starbrat: Homer it is.
Reaper 9,742: *points at 15,331* Ha ha!
Reaper 15,231: Why you little...
Harbinger: Why do these meetings always end like this?

[NeroonWilliams]

*sigh*

 

I always wonder why these discussions always slavishly regard the figure of 50,000 years as if it is a stopwatch that begins counting down again when the Reapers arrive.  And then they also assume that ANY civilization that isn't already spacefaring is safe from the Harvest.

 

Assuming both of these things simultaneously is LUDICROUS.

 

If a species just on the brink of spaceflight were to be skipped during one Harvest and then given an additional 50,000 years to develop without intervention?  Do you think that the Reapers would just sit back and say, "Boy, this species is starting to be able to be a real threat to us.  Too bad there's still another 47,000 on the clock.  Oh well."

 

Let's be clear.  Any civilization that has at the very least invented writing (and I would posit agriculture or metalsmithing as better benchmarks), will be likely to pose a grave threat to the Reapers by the time another 50,000 years goes by.  The "Yahg are safe" always struck me as insane logic on the part of everyone.

 

Now let's take a look at what the evidence presented in the story implies.  First off, the Protheans on Ilos disrupted the Reapers regular plan by altering the Keepers.  It is heavily implied that the Rachni were originally being recruited to be footsoldiers for the Reapers way back when we were talking to the last queen down on Noveria (the oily notes souring the songs).  This suggests that this Harvest is actually at least 1000 years LATE in happening.

 

So why DID the Reapers create the Mass Relays?  Sovereign's claims make good sense.  The easy access to a method of interstellar transportation that surpasses normal FTL drives is something that would stunt any research programs.  Why work to figure out how to do something that is readily available?  The Relay network eventually directs civilizations to the Citadel where great technology is just sitting, waiting to be used without ever understanding HOW it works.  Again fostering complacency.  So basically, the Relays work as roadblocks to technological development by giving easy access to advanced technology.

 

An easy analogy is this: How many of you have a smartphone?  Now, how many of you can create an app to run on it?  The answer from the VAST majority of you (even here on BSN) would be "Why would I put all that time and energy to write an app, when I can just go to the web and download one (or 50) that somebody else already made?"

 

My own theory (not backed up with concrete evidence) is that BOTH of the assumptions I pointed out at the start of this post are incorrect.  I believe that each cycle is not a set period of time, AND that any civilization that has advanced to the point of writing is subject to the Harvest.  I further posit (ZERO facts in evidence) that each Harvest is triggered by news reports via the Citadel (or the holdover such as Sovereign) of successful AI creations.  If it were me trying to maximize efficiency in the Harvest/dormancy cycle, that's how I would set it up.

[bunch1]

*sigh*

 

I always wonder why these discussions always slavishly regard the figure of 50,000 years as if it is a stopwatch that begins counting down again when the Reapers arrive.  And then they also assume that ANY civilization that isn't already spacefaring is safe from the Harvest.

 

Assuming both of these things simultaneously is LUDICROUS.

 

If a species just on the brink of spaceflight were to be skipped during one Harvest and then given an additional 50,000 years to develop without intervention?  Do you think that the Reapers would just sit back and say, "Boy, this species is starting to be able to be a real threat to us.  Too bad there's still another 47,000 on the clock.  Oh well."

 

Let's be clear.  Any civilization that has at the very least invented writing (and I would posit agriculture or metalsmithing as better benchmarks), will be likely to pose a grave threat to the Reapers by the time another 50,000 years goes by.  The "Yahg are safe" always struck me as insane logic on the part of everyone.

 

Now let's take a look at what the evidence presented in the story implies.  First off, the Protheans on Ilos disrupted the Reapers regular plan by altering the Keepers.  It is heavily implied that the Rachni were originally being recruited to be footsoldiers for the Reapers way back when we were talking to the last queen down on Noveria (the oily notes souring the songs).  This suggests that this Harvest is actually at least 1000 years LATE in happening.

 

So why DID the Reapers create the Mass Relays?  Sovereign's claims make good sense.  The easy access to a method of interstellar transportation that surpasses normal FTL drives is something that would stunt any research programs.  Why work to figure out how to do something that is readily available?  The Relay network eventually directs civilizations to the Citadel where great technology is just sitting, waiting to be used without ever understanding HOW it works.  Again fostering complacency.  So basically, the Relays work as roadblocks to technological development by giving easy access to advanced technology.

 

An easy analogy is this: How many of you have a smartphone?  Now, how many of you can create an app to run on it?  The answer from the VAST majority of you (even here on BSN) would be "Why would I put all that time and energy to write an app, when I can just go to the web and download one (or 50) that somebody else already made?"

 

My own theory (not backed up with concrete evidence) is that BOTH of the assumptions I pointed out at the start of this post are incorrect.  I believe that each cycle is not a set period of time, AND that any civilization that has advanced to the point of writing is subject to the Harvest.  I further posit (ZERO facts in evidence) that each Harvest is triggered by news reports via the Citadel (or the holdover such as Sovereign) of successful AI creations.  If it were me trying to maximize efficiency in the Harvest/dormancy cycle, that's how I would set it up.

In regards to the time between harvest I always figured 50,000 to be an average, some times it would be shorter, sometimes longer.  Vigil on Ilos believes that Sovereign was left behind to monitor organics and how advanced they became, if it was set then they wouldn't have left behind a member of their force alone and risked his being caught alone and getting killed, they didn't know the protheans would disable the citadel after all.

 

As for a tech roadblock I'm not so sure.  A lot of what the council uses is actually Prothean tech, from things like bacons and archives that were left behind, the only thing the reapers left behind were the citadel and the relays.  Of the two cycles we know of with some detail, the prothens were starting to make relays and both cycles were making progress on the keepers and citadel.  It is also important to remember that regular ftl is also very fast in the ME universe, something like 20 ly a day for civilian ships if I recall right, so even without the relay network it would only take 13 years to cross the 100,000 light year wide galaxy.  Sure, it's a lot longer then 5 minutes, but it is manageable for a human and the like, a bit long for a salarian, and laughably easy for an asari or krogan. 

 

I don't think the harvest is just triggered by the creation of ai.  The protheans had been at war with an ai for some time if I recall right and their was nothing to stop the reapers from just popping out.  I guess the scout reaper may have been sleeping during the beginning of the war and called for backup when he woke.  But if for some reason a civilization didn't make ai I still think the reapers would come to harvest them.

 

I still think that the relays are there mostly to focus organics on ezo and mass effect because you need that to work the relays and it's relatively easy to find refined fuel from past civilizations that just 'happen' to be left behind when new organics are setting out into space.  The last things the reapers want is come back for the harvest and face some new kind of tech like high powered energy weapons that can bypass their shields and cut through their armor.  Much better to let the organics have the tech to build very powerful mass drivers that they are equipped to stop.