695 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

And then left before someone could can him.  If that's not divine foresight, I don't know what is.

Naw.  He'll be back in 50,000 years.

[Bugsie]

and the Dalish take pride in their heritage of violence, hatred, and isolation

So not that different to the other races of Thedas then. Humans are fractious and violent within their own populace waring repeatedly amongst nations, the Qun have waring factions and like the Dwarves, practise isolationist policies. To say the Dalish are the only race to monopolise these traits conveniently ignores the rest of the history and cultures of Thedas.

I get it, people hate the Dalish, and they're hypocrites who treat city elfs with contempt, but I would say that the inhabitants of Kirkwall treated their fellow humans with a similar contempt when refugees from Fereldan began to enter the city in droves. All of this though is sort distracting from the original purpose of the thread.

So on topic, I get the impression that desire for a homeland will more likely be driven by the Dalish then any of the other elves, I'm guessing the elves being disenfranchised for so long and separated (Dalish, City, Tevinter and Qun) it would be difficult to unite under one banner without some initial stress or conflict and erasure of those separately developed identities.

[Steelcan]

So why not bring it up where appropriate? And why does it matter if it's intentional?
 

He goes on to say:

"I can definitely see comparisons to Native Americans as well as a number of other peoples who have experienced oppression in our history. These cultural elements evidently have many real-world analogues, which is interesting but also a bit sad."

 

Because I am not a fan of drawing a conclusion where none was intended, there's a reason i don't bother arguing the hobbits are actually scots, and that's because its spelt out in the books "no metaphor here"

 

then compare them to the Native Americans and we can discuss the validity of it,  do not use an intentionally volatile example dripping with implications of calling others who disagree bigots

[TheJediSaint]

So not that different to the other races of Thedas then. Humans are fractious and violent within their own populace waring repeatedly amongst nations, the Qun have waring factions and like the Dwarves, practise isolationist policies. To say the Dalish are the only race to monopolise these traits conveniently ignores the rest of the history and cultures of Thedas.

I get it, people hate the Dalish, and they're hypocrites who treat city elfs with contempt, but I would say that the inhabitants of Kirkwall treated their fellow humans with a similar contempt when refugees from Fereldan began to enter the city in droves. All of this though is sort distracting from the original purpose of the thread.

So on topic, I get the impression that desire for a homeland will more likely be driven by the Dalish then any of the other elves, I'm guessing the elves being disenfranchised for so long and separated (Dalish, City, Tevinter and Qun) it would be difficult to unite under one banner without some initial stress or conflict and erasure of those separately developed identities.

Elves, both Dailish and City, should be integrated into human society and granted equal rights as human citizens.  Then they have equal opportunity to be complete assholes to anyone and everyone around them.  Just like their round-earned former oppressors.

[Samahl]

do not use an intentionally volatile example dripping with implications of calling others who disagree bigots

It wasn't intentionally volatile, I was confused. In order to take issue with the concept of elven pride, you have to have to disagree with the concept of oppressed groups having pride in their identities period, or else you're picking on the elves for no discernable reason. Therefore, if you reject elven pride, it would follow that you reject other forms of pride, which is what originally led to my question.

Until people actually have a reason to criticize elven pride while accepting real life pride, it's simply cognitive dissonance.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Elves, both Dailish and City, should be integrated into human society and granted equal rights as human citizens.  Then they have equal opportunity to be complete assholes to anyone and everyone around them.  Just like their round-earned former oppressors.

 

Exactly! I support equality of dickishness for all!

[masster blaster]

It wasn't intentionally volatile, I was confused. In order to take issue with the concept of elven pride, you have to have to disagree with the concept of oppressed groups having pride in their identities period, or else you're picking on the elves for no discernable reason. Therefore, if you reject elven pride, it would follow that you reject other forms of pride, which is what originally led to my question.

Until people actually have a reason to criticize elven pride while accepting real life pride, it's simply cognitive dissonance.

what?

[Rifneno]

So not that different to the other races of Thedas then. Humans are fractious and violent within their own populace waring repeatedly amongst nations, the Qun have waring factions and like the Dwarves, practise isolationist policies. To say the Dalish are the only race to monopolise these traits conveniently ignores the rest of the history and cultures of Thedas.

I get it, people hate the Dalish, and they're hypocrites who treat city elfs with contempt, but I would say that the inhabitants of Kirkwall treated their fellow humans with a similar contempt when refugees from Fereldan began to enter the city in droves. All of this though is sort distracting from the original purpose of the thread.

So on topic, I get the impression that desire for a homeland will more likely be driven by the Dalish then any of the other elves, I'm guessing the elves being disenfranchised for so long and separated (Dalish, City, Tevinter and Qun) it would be difficult to unite under one banner without some initial stress or conflict and erasure of those separately developed identities.

Yes, pretty much.  Thedas is a complete crapsack world.  No surprise. There are no innocent factions, and few innocent individuals. People suck, and the Dalish are definitely included in that. It's just annoying to see people paint the Dalish as innocent little snowflakes while they're out murdering berrypickers and loosing megademons. I tried to be sympathetic with the Dalish, but my patience is at an end with the lot of them. Any of them look at me funny and I'll make The People into The Corpses given half a chance.

What really shocks me though is how many people honestly think this game is going to have a big happy ending for the elves. You can want it, but it doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'd pay double for a game that let me crucify every templar and qunari on the continent, but I know it's not going to happen. There's gonna be a lot of upset people when DAI comes out and they found out the inquisition is about stopping the big hole in the sky and not about their knife-eared pet projects.

[Steelcan]

It wasn't intentionally volatile, I was confused. In order to take issue with the concept of elven pride, you have to have to disagree with the concept of oppressed groups having pride in their identities period, or else you're picking on the elves for no discernable reason. Therefore, if you reject elven pride, it would follow that you reject other forms of pride, which is what originally led to my question.

Until people actually have a reason to criticize elven pride while accepting real life pride, it's simply cognitive dissonance.

No I don't have to reject other forms of pride if I reject the Dalish, all forms of pride should be judged on their own merits separate of other movements, otherwise equal credence would have to be given to white pride movements as well as black pride and so on.

 

And I can criticize Dalish pride because it is built on ignorance, violence, and isolation

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Seriously, people act like killing humans on sight is central to Dalish identity or something. It isn't. 

[LobselVith8]

Yes, pretty much.  Thedas is a complete crapsack world.  No surprise. There are no innocent factions, and few innocent individuals. People suck, and the Dalish are definitely included in that. It's just annoying to see people paint the Dalish as innocent little snowflakes while they're out murdering berrypickers and loosing megademons. I tried to be sympathetic with the Dalish, but my patience is at an end with the lot of them. Any of them look at me funny and I'll make The People into The Corpses given half a chance.

 

No one thinks that the Dalish are perfect. The people who find the Dalish to be interesting have also addressed when some of them have failed, and crossed the line (like Zathrian and Velanna). The issues arise when people disagree about certain matters.

 

What really shocks me though is how many people honestly think this game is going to have a big happy ending for the elves. You can want it, but it doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'd pay double for a game that let me crucify every templar and qunari on the continent, but I know it's not going to happen. There's gonna be a lot of upset people when DAI comes out and they found out the inquisition is about stopping the big hole in the sky and not about their knife-eared pet projects.

 

It's a thread focused on contemplating how we would run an elven homeland. You shouldn't be surprised that it's going to feature posts that contemplate how an independent elven nation should be governed.

[Steelcan]

Seriously, people act like killing humans on sight is central to Dalish identity or something. It isn't. 

yet part of their cultural identity is opposition, violently, to what they view as usurpers, literally a plague that rid them of their glorious utopian past

[Samahl]

No I don't have to reject other forms of pride if I reject the Dalish, all forms of pride should be judged on their own merits separate of other movements, otherwise equal credence would have to be given to white pride movements as well as black pride and so on.

I specifically said "oppressed groups". White people are not oppressed. Not for being white, anyway.

And I can criticize Dalish pride because it is built on ignorance, violence, and isolation

In what way?

[Samahl]

Double post.

[TheJediSaint]

yet part of their cultural identity is opposition, violently, to what they view as usurpers, literally a plague that rid them of their glorious utopian past

To be fair the the Dailish, It's only the jerks among them how really think killing humans is central part of their Dalishness.  I think most Dalish are more focused on preserving what's left of their culture and subsisting off the land.

[Rifneno]

Seriously, people act like killing humans on sight is central to Dalish identity or something. It isn't.

Just people who read the lore, or even the codex. Have you even played a bigot elf in DAO? Your origin literally starts with "HOO-MANS! WE MUST KILL THEM!"

No one thinks that the Dalish are perfect. The people who find the Dalish to be interesting have also addressed when some of them have failed, and crossed the line (like Zathrian and Velanna). The issues arise when people disagree about certain matters.

LOL @ not listing Merrill first and foremost among the failures.

[Bugsie]

Elves, both Dailish and City, should be integrated into human society and granted equal rights as human citizens.  Then they have equal opportunity to be complete assholes to anyone and everyone around them.  Just like their round-earned former oppressors.

LOL, somehow I don't see integration being as successful as the development of an Elven homeland, although it is an option, for all the full citizen rights offered to them acceptance as anything other than servants and slaves might be harder to come by from the rest of the populace. Probably just lead to more unrest.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the elves in general, but I don't slavishly hold their culture (the Dalish) above or below any of the others in Thedas. I've recently been playing as a Dalish elf (for the first time) and have enjoyed it quite a bit. I only ever rolled humans before.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

yet part of their cultural identity is opposition, violently, to what they view as usurpers, literally a plague that rid them of their glorious utopian past

 

Their cultural identity is about refusing to live under human rule. Anything else is up to the individuals and clans. Violence isn't inherently part of it. 

 

Also humans are the reason for ridding them of their glorious past, quickening or not.

[Steelcan]

I specifically said "oppressed groups". White people are not oppressed. Not for being white, anyway.

In what way?

And I can argue that point, recently Zimbabwe passed laws barring whites from holding land or owning property, hardly in a first world western nation, but it does exist

 

I shouldn't need to point out why the dalish can be easily viewed to hold such views

[Steelcan]

Their cultural identity is about refusing to live under human rule. Anything else is up to the individuals and clans. Violence isn't inherently part of it. 

 

Also humans are for ridding them of their glorious past, quickening or not.

Their cultural identity certainly glorifies the violence the dalish of old (living in the dales) inflicted upon the other human nations

[TheJediSaint]

LOL, somehow I don't see integration being as successful as the development of an Elven homeland, although it is an option, for all the full citizen rights offered to them acceptance as anything other than servants and slaves might be harder to come by from the rest of the populace. Probably just lead to more unrest.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the elves in general, but I don't slavishly hold their culture (the Dalish) above or below any of the others in Thedas. I've recently been playing as a Dalish elf (for the first time) and have enjoyed it quite a bit. I only ever rolled humans before.

As Dean tends to point out, integration is a western liberal idea which would be completely alien in Thedas.  Basically, what the Elves need is for Thedas to have an equivalent to the Enlightenment happen so that human become more tolerant of them.   That's probably a few centuries away, at best.

[LobselVith8]

Just people who read the lore, or even the codex. Have you even played a bigot elf in DAO? Your origin literally starts with "HOO-MANS! WE MUST KILL THEM!"

 

You can shape the personality of your Dalish protagonist, and I don't recall anyone at the Dalish camp condoning or encouraging the notion of killing all the humans.

 

LOL @ not listing Merrill first and foremost among the failures.

 

I don't see Merrill's construction of the Eluvian as a failure, especially not after "The Masked Empire". It's one of those issues you and I can respectfully agree to disagree on.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just people who read the lore, or even the codex. Have you even played a bigot elf in DAO? Your origin literally starts with "HOO-MANS! WE MUST KILL THEM!"

 

And do you have to kill them? No.

 

There's a codex in the game that states outright that most Dalish elves just want to be left alone and don't go round trying to kill humans. There's also plenty of Dalish elves that are friendly.In fact I'd say most of them are.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Their cultural identity certainly glorifies the violence the dalish of old (living in the dales) inflicted upon the other human nations

 

Uh, no it doesn't. All the stories they seem to remember (or at least tell) about the Dales are about the humans crushing it.

[Samahl]

And I can argue that point, recently Zimbabwe passed laws barring whites from holding land or owning property, hardly in a first world western nation, but it does exist

I'm not even going to get into this in detail, but no, there are no laws against white people owning land in Zimbabwe. There's a lot of history behind that whole situation.

I shouldn't need to point out why the dalish can be easily viewed to hold such views

Clearly, I don't understand, so maybe you should.

...or not, since this a thread for elf supporters.