695 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

I think applying the actual logistics of running a nation is overthinking it a bit. This is all childish make believe nonsense. lol. It's good fun, but come on. The elves could run things purely from the abritrary will of the writers, if they are so inclined. It's not like we're playing a simulation or something.

Writer's intent is a whole different can of worms.  Speculating on that requires getting into their heads, which can be pretty weird and dangerous places from what I understand.

[Bugsie]

Writer's intent is a whole different can of worms.  Speculating on that requires getting into their heads, which can be pretty weird and dangerous places from what I understand.

Thar be dragons, or demons or just fans tears.

[Wolfen09]

I would probably do something like the free marches, a bunch of city states in a certain area for the elves....  however the dalish and city elves would have to unite and take over some land to build said country first, which means war with another country (unless someone gives them back the dales, like that will happen).

 

After that, it would be about dividing up the lands into said city states and having rulers elected to them.  Lets say 3 city states to each faction, 3 to dalish and 3 to city elves.  Those Elected to the seats in the city states of the city elves would be the representatives of their cities and those 3 elected for the dalish would represent the dalish.  These 6 would decide how to rule their areas, and in times of crisis for the whole (meaning all 6 areas) would meet to determine a course of action.  Majority rule, but 6 means there could be an even split, so we have a house of elected officals say 30, 5 from each area to vote when the 6 reps cant agree.  This might cause problems at first as the dalish might vote all together and the city elves might do the same.  Nothing is perfect, but this would give equal representation.

 

As for worship, im pretty sure there aren't many elves who try to force andraste down the throats of the dalish....  Unless tim teebow became an elf...  Anyway, freedom of worship, and im banking on the chantry being revised to a less radical faction in inquisition (hoping for no more exalted marches).

 

Mages, how to deal with this problem at this point.  Since there is no more circle, and the entire world is in upheaval at this, it really cant be decided.  However, a new system would have to be developed for the elven mages in this society, as the city elf mages would just run to hide with the dalish if we implemented a circle in the city states of the city elves.  If we are to monitor the city elf mages, we must have a way to monitor the dalish ones as well, this would mean having a very loose system which i can see many not agreeing upon.  If anything, the easiest solution would be to have the city elf mages sent to the dalish to train, and maybe allow them to bring their families?  This would bring a good measure of mages to the dalish allowing them to possibly apprentice and become keepers (like that chick from origins who took over for zathrian).  This would also keep them from taking the dalish mages away and locking them into a tower if we were to reverse the roles.  This is probably the hardest issue to deal with.

[Samahl]

Thedas seems to be used to monarchy, so this seems like a good start.

 

I don't think we should be basing infrastructure on what humans in Thedas are accustomed, but rather, what is most familiar to the elves. Both city elves and the Dalish are somewhat oligarchical, guided by elders/hahren and Keepers (and apparently warleaders). I think the best way to go is to have elected representatives for every clan and alienage, sort of like the dwarven Assembly. Of course, there should be some kind of central figurehead, though I'm not sure what the best way to go about choosing that figurehead is...

[Lulupab]

I don't think we should be basing infrastructure on what humans in Thedas are accustomed, but rather, what is most familiar to the elves. Both city elves and the Dalish are somewhat oligarchical, guided by elders/hahren and Keepers (and apparently warleaders). I think the best way to go is to have elected representatives for every clan and alienage, sort of like the dwarven Assembly. Of course, there should be some kind of central figurehead, though I'm not sure what the best way to go about choosing that figurehead is...

City elves are much more friendlier to the the Dalish and they actually bow before Marethari when she goes to the alienage. So I wouldn't be surprised if the central figure was Dalish, or better a noble family with one side being city elf and the other Dalish. This would probably work.

[Samahl]

City elves are much more friendlier to the the Dalish and they actually bow before Marethari when she goes to the alienage.

 

Attitudes towards elves of the other group seem to vary quite a bit from clan to clan and alienage to alienage. The Denerim elves weren't even sure the Dalish existed, and Merrill really seems to care about her neighbors in the Kirkwall alienage. It's overly simplistic, in my opinion, to use blanket statements for either group.

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the central figure was Dalish, or better a noble family with one side being city elf and the other Dalish. This would probably work.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the noble line started with Briala, actually, or the Inquisitor.

[OctagonalSquare]

I don't think we should be basing infrastructure on what humans in Thedas are accustomed, but rather, what is most familiar to the elves. Both city elves and the Dalish are somewhat oligarchical, guided by elders/hahren and Keepers (and apparently warleaders). I think the best way to go is to have elected representatives for every clan and alienage, sort of like the dwarven Assembly. Of course, there should be some kind of central figurehead, though I'm not sure what the best way to go about choosing that figurehead is...

Well, I did say there should be a parliament or congress.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think we should be basing infrastructure on what humans in Thedas are accustomed, but rather, what is most familiar to the elves. Both city elves and the Dalish are somewhat oligarchical, guided by elders/hahren and Keepers (and apparently warleaders). I think the best way to go is to have elected representatives for every clan and alienage, sort of like the dwarven Assembly. Of course, there should be some kind of central figurehead, though I'm not sure what the best way to go about choosing that figurehead is...

...so we're going from an admitted and unelected oligarchial system to a elected representative system modeled off of... an extremely repressive caste system in which suffrage exists only for the nobility-class?

 

I applaud the use of the beginning and end points, at least they are based in-lore, but where does the mass democracy in selecting the leadership class come from? The City Elves practice consensus politics, not democracy, while the Dalish have a long tradition of mage leadership.

[Dean_the_Young]

Firstly, This is a thread about an elven homeland in general not about the Dalish specifically, and it was still peppered with anti-elf trolling.

 

Criticism of unrealistic and harmful proposals isn't anti-elf trolling, no more than criticism of a politician is being anti-identity (for whatever that politician is identified with).

 

Serious, viable, and sustainable should be the goal here for any truly pro-elf person. Short of that, identifying and addressing issues that stand to harm them is the next best thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Their cultural identity certainly glorifies the violence the dalish of old (living in the dales) inflicted upon the other human nations

 

I disagree with this. Going by codex and their common talking points, the Dalish don't glorify what the Dales did (or, in the Blight, did not do) to other nations. Quite the inverse: the Dalish barely talk about foreign relations and human grievances at all.

 

The Dalish pride in the Dales pretty much amounts to 'we had our own land, and some awesome military that kept the dirty shem missionaries away.' They don't talk about how that was done, don't talk about the border conflict, don't talk the campaign in Orlais, don't talk about the inaction during the previous Blight, and so on.

 

The historical pride of the Dales is in the form of 'we were free and independent,' but very little is ever discussed about what 'free and independent' meant in practice.

[Samahl]

...so we're going from an admitted and unelected oligarchial system to a elected representative system modeled off of... an extremely repressive caste system in which suffrage exists only for the nobility-class?

 

It would be modeled off of how elves currently live today, not the Dales or Arlathan. Even city elves are guided by elders - those would be the people I'd expect to represent each clan/alienage.

 

I applaud the use of the beginning and end points, at least they are based in-lore, but where does the mass democracy in selecting the leadership class come from? The City Elves practice consensus politics, not democracy, while the Dalish have a long tradition of mage leadership.

 

I'm not sure how elders/hahren are decided on, so I defaulted to election, but it doesn't have to work out that way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I find myself perplexed as to how you read a post about elves, humans, and qunari working together for a better future for the Elvhen, and an independent Dales, and instead misconstrued it to be about killing innocent people.

 

Then again, I remain vexed as to why people who have made it clear, time and again, that they dislike the elves, continually bombard the elven threads about how much they despise the elves, people whom you seem to be familiar with. Maybe we can focus on the actual topic at hand for a change, or the people who dislike the elves can simply show some civility for the rest of us and allow us to discuss the topic? The thread is about the management of an elven homeland, not an invitation to express why you don't think an elven homeland should exist.

You didn't even bother to read the post I replied to did you?

[Mistic]

I applaud the use of the beginning and end points, at least they are based in-lore, but where does the mass democracy in selecting the leadership class come from? The City Elves practice consensus politics, not democracy, while the Dalish have a long tradition of mage leadership.

 

I suppose it should come from the City Elves, actually.

 

Consensus politics is actually the first step. Before democracy in a form we know today appeared in ancient Athens, there must have been tribal or local systems that were akin to primitive forms of democracy.

A primitive democracy is identified in small communities or villages when the following take place: face-to-face discussion in the village council or a headman whose decisions are supported by village elders or other cooperative modes of government.

 

Sounds suspiciously similar to the forms of government City Elves and Dalish have.

 

However, it's true that this is just a first step. The problem is when you have a society with too many people for that, as in a society where you can't know personally all of its members, so administrative posts have to be filled and matters discussed in an organized situation (like an assembly). And that's in a direct democracy, when population is still manageable; nowadays we have indirect/representative democracies because unless you live in a microstate, there are just too many people.

 

The consensus, as Legion would say, has to be imposed. Typically, people in power (because thay had more riches, or more supporters, or more weapons, etc.) could impose an authoritarian system, becoming the first forms of aristocracy. The question is, what would avoid that ending in the case of a free elven state? Because a country like that can't be managed like a Dalish tribe or an alienage, I think we can all agree on that.

 

Interestingly, I think the division of elves in Dalish tribes and alienages from different countries could lead to a Roman system because of necessity. The concept would be that of the Roman tribes. After all, even legend admitted that Rome was founded by different ethnic tribes (and that it started with a war for their women), Romans and Sabins, then Etruscans. Each tribe was divided into curiae, and these curiae units represented each a vote in the comitia curiata, the oldest legislative assembly of Rome (the famous Senate was actually a council of senex, "the elders", based on gens/family clan rather than tribe).

 

So that could be it. The main problem of a free elven country would be how to assimilate the different origins of its citizens, beginning from the main division between Dalish and City Elves, and ending with clans (for the Dalish) and nations or even further down to alienages (City Elves). Necessity could force them to adopt a system who gives votes to the "curiae" to make everyone more or less satisfied, with some arbiter (oh, yes, a king sounds more than plausible, or a council of elders, or both, like the Romans) to mediate and take executive action. Far from the democratic utopia one may wish, and another can of worms for the future (Roman history was... interesting, to say the least), but somewaht realistic, I think.

[Rifneno]

You can shape the personality of your Dalish protagonist, and I don't recall anyone at the Dalish camp condoning or encouraging the notion of killing all the humans.

And I haven't personally seen a guy wearing white sheets talk about killing "all" the black people. Doesn't mean they're not racist filth. And so a lot of the Dalish.

(Samahl's right, analogies are fun!)
 

I don't see Merrill's construction of the Eluvian as a failure, especially not after "The Masked Empire". It's one of those issues you and I can respectfully agree to disagree on.

No, I don't think so. I don't respect anyone who thinks making deals with pride demons is a good idea. Anyone. Under any circumstance. At any time. For any reason.

Maybe the anti-elf people in here might find it interesting to try and consider how they would run an elven homeland. Otherwise, all the anti-Dalish negativity is getting quite tiresome.

Oh, good idea. How would I like to see an elven homeland run? The same way I'd like to see any government that's based around race: fire. Burn it to the ground, then spit upon its ashes.
Segregation is bad. Always has been, always will be.

[Samahl]

And I haven't personally seen a guy wearing white sheets talk about killing "all" the black people. Doesn't mean they're not racist filth. And so a lot of the Dalish.

(Samahl's right, analogies are fun!)

 

So you think the majority of white people are KKK members? Uh...

 

No, I don't think so. I don't respect anyone who thinks making deals with pride demons is a good idea. Anyone. Under any circumstance. At any time. For any reason.

 

Strawman. Lob didn't say dealing with demons was a good idea, just that Merrill didn't fail in the construction of the eluvian.

 

Oh, good idea. How would I like to see an elven homeland run? The same way I'd like to see any government that's based around race: fire. Burn it to the ground, then spit upon its ashes.
Segregation is bad. Always has been, always will be.

 

So, planning on bringing down pretty much every single government in Thedas, then?

[Rifneno]

So, planning on bringing down pretty much every single government in Thedas, then?

Naw. Saving my strength for SJWs.

[Samahl]

Naw. Saving my strength for SJWs.

 

Well, I'm glad you're open about your hypocrisy.

[LOLandStuff]

 

Strawman. Lob didn't say dealing with demons was a good idea, just that Merrill didn't fail in the construction of the eluvian.

 

She failed since all she did was build a kitschy mirror that's not even working.

[Lulupab]

She failed since all she did was build a kitschy mirror that's not even working.

Technically the Eluvian was working, there was no one on the other end to connect

[EmperorSahlertz]

It's not equivalent, but it has similarities, which I've demonstrated. I'm legitimately perplexed about how people can detach from the real world so readily.

Because taking pride in your sexuality is NOT the same as taking pride in being a racist. The ONLY similarity between the two is that they take pride in something they feel define them.

[LOLandStuff]

Technically the Eluvian was working, there was no one on the other end to connect

 

Because any sane person knows better than to interact with Merrill.

I'm sure she got added to the ignore list as soon as possible.

[Lulupab]

Because any sane person knows better than to interact with Merrill.
I'm sure she got added to the ignore list as soon as possible.

Or Maybe all Eluvians are destroyed or worse, she "cleansed" the mirror with blood magic so it was no longer tainted hence Darkspawn didn't come out of it like before. Another alive person in front of another Eluvian is necessary to have the connection Merril wanted.

[LOLandStuff]

Or Maybe all Eluvians are destroyed or worse, she "cleansed" the mirror with blood magic so it was no longer tainted hence Darkspawn didn't come out of it like before. Another alive person in front of another Eluvian is necessary to have the connection Merril wanted.

 

Or maybe it was just another ordinary mirror with a chunk of previously tainted mirror, and the demon just BS her.

Besides, it was a lonely mirror who surely needed to be connected to the eluvian relay for it to work.