695 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

Criticism of unrealistic and harmful proposals isn't anti-elf trolling, no more than criticism of a politician is being anti-identity (for whatever that politician is identified with).

 

Serious, viable, and sustainable should be the goal here for any truly pro-elf person. Short of that, identifying and addressing issues that stand to harm them is the next best thing.

 

Well, no not in an of itself, but...

 

Those who disobey this the most important law in the great state of "Take that evil Humans!" will of course be shot on sight.

 

The difference being that the Dalish have their heads lodged so far up their own asses it boggles the mind.

 

 

The new casteless! *It's gonna be elves*

 

 

Obviously I walk around kicking puppies and telling little children that they will never grow up to be anything worthwhile. I of course can never be anything but a cardboard cutout villain. All because I don't like your fictional race of special snowflakes.

 

SUBMIT TO THE SPECIAL SNOW FLAKE ELVES OR DIE!

 

o-o or just die if your talking to the TME dalish.

 

 

All filthy humans will be sent to death Elfification camps!

 

After all those filthy scumlords took away our totally universal magic and immortality!

 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, no but...

 

*quote snips*

People aren't exactly being invited to civil discussion when the mere mention of their opposistion to a Dalish nation, is met with wild accusations of homophobia, racism and a truckload of other unpleasantries.

Furthermore, the replies you quoted were all brought on, by someone saying they would support a war of human extermination from the new Elven homeland.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not all of them, and in fact they started before either of those things happened. I actually tried to make a point of avoiding ones that were a direct response to the revenge war discussion.

[Dabrikishaw]

With Chantry oversite.

[Medhia_Nox]

I totally support the freedom of the City Elves... I totally support the exile/extinction of the Dalish (not as a people, but as a culture).  It is antagonistic and incompatible with current Thedas.

 

Also, I'm not sure how magically binding what Briala says is... but the book makes it seem like the eluvians operate on a kind of "verbal magical genetics" and the people you specify are the ones capable of using them.  Well... she was very specific on who would get to use them. 

[Gervaise]

Thank you everyone who has contributed positively to this little thread; as always it seems there are a minority who prefer to ignore sensible debate.

 

For the record I do know that according to WoT Shartan converted to faith in the Maker (which I had always thought in doubt following his words in the Gauntlet).   Regardless of his religion it seems to me that he fought for his people's freedom and wanted a homeland for them, not because he was racist but because he wanted somewhere that they would be free from slavery and persecution.     The jury is still out on what went wrong on that but I still agree with him that taking away the Dales from the elves and herding them all (bar the Dalish) into alienages was a betrayal.   They could have removed the leadership and let the majority remain provided they accepted faith in the Maker, since that is what happened anyway in the alienages.    Whoever started that war, Orlais certainly benefited the most from it. 

 

As things stand I think there is a better chance of success in just getting individual countries to change their laws regarding elves.   Even Ferelden is guilty of discriminatory law in that respect.    Orlais is bad towards all commoners and Celene's mistake was in appearing to give preferential treatment to elven peasants, which was bound to cause resentment.   Her law with regard to admission to the university actually applied to all commoners but by making her stand over an elf opened the way to all the racism that followed.

 

If every race is treated equally under the law of each individual state, then there would be no need for a homeland for anyone.    I must admit that the idea of a state for all non-human outcast races does seem an alternative to a purely elven one.    A combination of elves, castless and surface dwarves and vashoth might actually have the requisite skills, strength and numbers to succeed.       The Dalish would be welcome to become part of it but I have a feeling that they would continue to hold themselves aloof from interaction with the rest.   Unless they change their way of thinking, for them an elven state will always be synonymous with a Dalish state because they don't recognise anyone but the Dalish as true elves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That type of state would still face kind of the same challenges as an elven state would. 

[Samahl]

I wonder how numerous the Dalish are... do they outnumber all vashoth and casteless dwarves combined? If so, I don't see why trying to curry favor with non-Dalish would be any more fruitful than doing so with the Dalish themselves.

[LobselVith8]

I wonder how numerous the Dalish are... do they outnumber all vashoth and casteless dwarves combined? If so, I don't see why trying to curry favor with non-Dalish would be any more fruitful than doing so with the Dalish themselves.

 

It's difficult to say. Considering that there are clans from the fringes of the Imperium to the kingdom of Rivain, I'd imagine there are quite a few of the People roaming the landscape of Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

I wonder how numerous the Dalish are... do they outnumber all vashoth and casteless dwarves combined? If so, I don't see why trying to curry favor with non-Dalish would be any more fruitful than doing so with the Dalish themselves.

It's curious. I would like to know how many clans are still left, as well. I would say maybe a thousand? I have no clue though. At the very least though, Masked Empire claims that the vast majority are out of the Dales, so most are scattered around Thedas.

[Roamingmachine]

Righto.....

 

Something for the anti-elf brigade: While criticism and argument are elements of a debate, absolutely no point in this thread was about debate. Look at the op, look at the headline. Where does it say anything about debating about the elven nation? It's marked clearly in intent and for its intended audience, yet here you are. What you are doing is not debating as there is no-one to convince, no audience to sway. You are here just to get a reaction from the pro-elf folks like me. I personally have very strong opinions about the Chantry and Qunari, but I wouldn't go to threads with titles like "The qun is love!"  and "Chantry rocks!".  Just because I don't like their opinions doesn't mean I get to trash them in threads (or any other venue...) that are clearly intended for people of the like mind, unless there's actual call for debate in the post. And even then, being civil beats sarcasm and snarkiness. Your opinions have no real meaning for me, but seeing the same names pop-up again and again with the same attitude is tiresome.

[Hellion Rex]

It's difficult to say. Considering that there are clans from the fringes of the Imperium to the kingdom of Rivain, I'd imagine there are quite a few of the People roaming the landscape of Thedas.

Speaking of, what is the Imperium view of the Dalish? Do they basically just stay out of each other's way?

[LobselVith8]

It's curious. I would like to know how many clans are still left, as well. I would say maybe a thousand? I have no clue though. At the very least though, Masked Empire claims that the vast majority are out of the Dales, so most are scattered around Thedas.

 

Since the Arlathvenn is supposed to take place in the Dales, I imagine some of the clans might be in the nation now.

 

Speaking of, what is the Imperium view of the Dalish? Do they basically just stay out of each other's way?

 

Apparently, some of the clans are basically little more than bandits in the Imperium, so I'm guessing confrontations can end up getting violent between the Dalish and the Magisters or their entourage.

[Nukekitten]

That's, uh, not the same thing at all. Extrapolating the general tenor of non-Dalish elven sentiment about magic - the opinions of tens or hundreds of thousands of individuals - from one source is not the same thing as expecting to see something in your bank account and not finding it.

 
I think we might be talking at cross purposes? ;

The person I was replying to was saying that we didn't know whether Fenris' opinion was the majority or minority - invoking absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence - and I was saying that I didn't think it worked like that in response to him.
 
If Fenris' views were in the majority, I think we'd expect to see it. They're... pretty vocal views after all.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Well, no not in an of itself, but...

 

 

So when you speak of trolls, you really mean... one person of note.

 

Just call Cheese out by name, then. It's not hard.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So when you speak of trolls, you really mean... one person of note.

 

Just call Cheese out by name, then. It's not hard.

 

It's not only him, but I didn't actually realize how high a percentage of it was until I tallied it all up for the record.

[Wulfram]

I think most people have less hatred of Mages than Fenris, but plenty of fear.  Probably including the city elves.  Perhaps balanced by some resentment for children taken away by Templars, like among humans but perhaps stronger because it's humans taking away elvish kids.

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

Since the Arlathvenn is supposed to take place in the Dales, I imagine some of the clans might be in the nation now.

 

...considering the Orlesian Civil War is spilling into the Dales, it might be a good idea to relocate Arlathvenn.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's not only him, but I didn't actually realize how high a percentage of it was until I tallied it all up for the record.

 

Isn't data analysis wonderful?

[LobselVith8]

...considering the Orlesian Civil War is spilling into the Dales, it might be a good idea to relocate Arlathvenn.

 

It seems to have been in motion some time before the Orlesian civil war and the crisis with the Breach; given the brewing Mage-Templar War in Ferelden, I also doubt anywhere in the nearby vicinity would be any safer for the assembled clans. It was something I took into account for my hypothetical scenario about an independent Dales, as I figured it could have been accomplished with large assembly of the clans working alongside the elves of the Dales towards a common goal, and possibly a few Qunari elves who might be in the general area (perhaps from Kirkwall or Qundalon in the Anderfels).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Righto.....

 

Something for the anti-elf brigade: While criticism and argument are elements of a debate, absolutely no point in this thread was about debate. Look at the op, look at the headline. Where does it say anything about debating about the elven nation? It's marked clearly in intent and for its intended audience, yet here you are. What you are doing is not debating as there is no-one to convince, no audience to sway. You are here just to get a reaction from the pro-elf folks like me. I personally have very strong opinions about the Chantry and Qunari, but I wouldn't go to threads with titles like "The qun is love!"  and "Chantry rocks!".  Just because I don't like their opinions doesn't mean I get to trash them in threads (or any other venue...) that are clearly intended for people of the like mind, unless there's actual call for debate in the post. And even then, being civil beats sarcasm and snarkiness. Your opinions have no real meaning for me, but seeing the same names pop-up again and again with the same attitude is tiresome.

This is a forum. It is MEANT for debate, discussion and the exchange of ideas. No matter what the title of the thread says, it is these key values that are at the heart of a forum. Ideas and opinions should be challenged and criticized, because that is the way they evolve and improve.

However since the "defendant" elf-fanboys apparently takes even the slightest criticism as a personal attack against themselves, and every minority in existance (and even some fictional ones), and apparently start accusing us of real-life intolerance and racism, it doesn't exactly invite us to take ANY of you seriously, so you get ridiculed in response. Funny how that works.

[TheJediSaint]

Speaking of, what is the Imperium view of the Dalish? Do they basically just stay out of each other's way?

Dalish are probably seen as potential slaves by Tevinter, assuming they could catch them.

[TK514]

I would start by moving my elven people anywhere but the human owned and dominated continent we've seen so far.  Anything and everything else would wait until that exodus had been achieved.

 

Then assuming free land could be found elsewhere on the globe, I would found two kingdoms, because no kingdom mixing the Dalish and the City Elves would ever stand the test of time without destroying the culture of one or the other.  As respectful neighbors supporting each other, they have a chance.  Together they have none.

[Star fury]

I always find it funny that posters from XXI century automatically assume their views on government are relevant in a basically medieval society with all xenophobia, racism, religious fanaticism, aristocracy treating commoners like dirt. You can add animosity between humans and elves, mages and templars.
There will be no democracy, no equal rights in any society in Thedas, an elf society including. Elven kingdom(provided they can create one) will be either a feudal monarchy or a theocracy.

[Star fury]

So when you speak of trolls, you really mean... one person of note.
 
Just call Cheese out by name, then. It's not hard.

I see that Warder z trolls not only the Leliana thread.