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[Solas]

Badly, I imagine.

 

Is there anyone in the fandom who actually has experience in managing a government?

EM MY COUNTRY ON NATION STATES IS HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL I WILL HAVE YOU KNOW

[A Clever Name]

 

This is a forum. It is MEANT for debate, discussion and the exchange of ideas. No matter what the title of the thread says, it is these key values that are at the heart of a forum. Ideas and opinions should be challenged and criticized, because that is the way they evolve and improve.

However since the "defendant" elf-fanboys apparently takes even the slightest criticism as a personal attack against themselves, and every minority in existance (and even some fictional ones), and apparently start accusing us of real-life intolerance and racism, it doesn't exactly invite us to take ANY of you seriously, so you get ridiculed in response. Funny how that works.

Dude, calm down.  No one is taking criticism as a personal affront, from what I've seen.  Just because someone uses an analogy of real-world issues for comparison does not mean they are accusing you of real-world prejudice.  Unless they explicitly say that you are being as such, you might be reading too much into it.  And I understand the challenge and criticism to a point, but turn it around with us "elf fanboys" (I'm a girl, by the way ;P) doing the criticism of your standpoints and you become just as much a "defendant" as us.  From what I've seen on these forums criticism rarely comes with the change of a mindset - it all devolves into vitriolic nonsense that completely avoids the point of the thread topic.  If I tried to explain why one group acted in a particular way, I would be accused of being an "apologist," which I find not only hilarious but in bad taste.

 

Any way you put it and in whatever context, no one should be treated with any less respect for having a differing opinion.  Period.  Don't accuse every single "elf fanboy" of having a personal vendetta against you, either.  I certainly don't recall personally insulting you or accusing you of bigotry and I'd rather you not ascribe those traits to people who are innocent of any supposed accusation.  Why on earth would I hate you when I barely know you?

[Master Warder Z_]

For the record I do know that according to WoT Shartan converted to faith in the Maker (which I had always thought in doubt following his words in the Gauntlet). 

 

DAO as you also likely know came out long before WOT.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

 

Dude, calm down.  No one is taking criticism as a personal affront, from what I've seen.  Just because someone uses an analogy of real-world issues for comparison does not mean they are accusing you of real-world prejudice.  Unless they explicitly say that you are being as such, you might be reading too much into it.  And I understand the challenge and criticism to a point, but turn it around with us "elf fanboys" (I'm a girl, by the way ;P) doing the criticism of your standpoints and you become just as much a "defendant" as us.  From what I've seen on these forums criticism rarely comes with the change of a mindset - it all devolves into vitriolic nonsense that completely avoids the point of the thread topic.  If I tried to explain why one group acted in a particular way, I would be accused of being an "apologist," which I find not only hilarious but in bad taste.

 

Any way you put it and in whatever context, no one should be treated with any less respect for having a differing opinion.  Period.  Don't accuse every single "elf fanboy" of having a personal vendetta against you, either.  I certainly don't recall personally insulting you or accusing you of bigotry and I'd rather you not ascribe those traits to people who are innocent of any supposed accusation.  Why on earth would I hate you when I barely know you?

 

I didn't even once refer to myself... So this entire post is somewhat misplaced.... But... Good for you, I guess?

 

Matter of fact however, is that some of our mere presence in this thread has been repeatedly attacked, in a variety of ways. That isn't exactly conduct inviting to civil discussion.

[LobselVith8]

Thank you everyone who has contributed positively to this little thread; as always it seems there are a minority who prefer to ignore sensible debate.

 

For the record I do know that according to WoT Shartan converted to faith in the Maker (which I had always thought in doubt following his words in the Gauntlet).   Regardless of his religion it seems to me that he fought for his people's freedom and wanted a homeland for them, not because he was racist but because he wanted somewhere that they would be free from slavery and persecution.     The jury is still out on what went wrong on that but I still agree with him that taking away the Dales from the elves and herding them all (bar the Dalish) into alienages was a betrayal.   They could have removed the leadership and let the majority remain provided they accepted faith in the Maker, since that is what happened anyway in the alienages.    Whoever started that war, Orlais certainly benefited the most from it. 

 

Whether or not Shartan's alleged conversion was genuine is unknown, since it may have simply been done to solidify an alliance with Andraste and the human followers. It's hard to say with any certainty. The apparition of Shartan (in the ruins of the temple) does say, “It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves.”

 

The prospect of restoring Shartan's dream is something that I find appealing about the notion of your thread - a nation where the myriad of elves can live together, where they would be their own masters. Shartan was certainly an interesting figure; I've wondered if the elven Inquisitor might be in the vicinity of Haven (or the ruins of the temple) because of the apparition of Shartan.

 

As things stand I think there is a better chance of success in just getting individual countries to change their laws regarding elves.   Even Ferelden is guilty of discriminatory law in that respect.    Orlais is bad towards all commoners and Celene's mistake was in appearing to give preferential treatment to elven peasants, which was bound to cause resentment.   Her law with regard to admission to the university actually applied to all commoners but by making her stand over an elf opened the way to all the racism that followed.

 

Changing local laws in these nations wouldn't necessarily change how Andrastian humans view elves, and things can slide back the second a 'traditionalist' takes power; I think an elven homeland would have a much more solid future without running the risk of sliding back to how things have been for close to a thousand years for the elves.

 

If every race is treated equally under the law of each individual state, then there would be no need for a homeland for anyone.    I must admit that the idea of a state for all non-human outcast races does seem an alternative to a purely elven one.    A combination of elves, castless and surface dwarves and vashoth might actually have the requisite skills, strength and numbers to succeed.       The Dalish would be welcome to become part of it but I have a feeling that they would continue to hold themselves aloof from interaction with the rest.   Unless they change their way of thinking, for them an elven state will always be synonymous with a Dalish state because they don't recognise anyone but the Dalish as true elves.

 

You're making the mistake of confusing how some Dalish see the city elves with how all of them perceive their Andrastian counterparts, and we also know that some city elves are guilty of the same. According to hahren Sarethia's commentary about Alienage Culture, he said: "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere." The City Elf Origin and "The Masked Empire" features Andrastian elves who invoke the term 'flat ear' as well, while some city elves in the Denerim Alienage denigrated the Dalish as nothing more than "savages".

 

No group in Thedas is perfect, but more than a few of the common criticisms made about some the Dalish also apply to some of the city elves as well. That said, I think that most Andrastian and Dalish elves can work together for the betterment of their people (as well as the Qunari elves).

[A Clever Name]

 

I didn't even once refer to myself... So this entire post is somewhat misplaced.... But... Good for you, I guess?

 

Matter of fact however, is that some of our mere presence in this thread has been repeatedly attacked, in a variety of ways. That isn't exactly conduct inviting to civil discussion.

Really?  There's no need to be sassy.  And if it's a misplaced response then I apologize, but do recognize that you have just stated that you group yourselves with individuals that felt they were insulted.  As a matter of fact, repeatedly in the post I responded to you referred to the individuals as "us," which typically implies you include yourself in the affronted party (definition of us: "pronoun; me and at least one other person").  As I was responding specifically to your grievance, I felt the need to speak directly to you as opposed to a generalized group.

 

As I recall, people were expressing discontent with a few individuals who they claimed were frequenting the elf-specific threads and derailing the topic, none of which sounds like a personal attack to me, and unless the affronted parties can point out explicit language that is slanderous to their persons, I cannot consider it as such.  And as I said in my previous response, it was not every single person you felt the need to group together with your accusations.  Your most recent response shows a disinterest on your behalf in discussing this reasonably.  Unless I'm incorrectly interpreting it as a rather clear dismissal of an opinion you don't agree with?  Maybe that's the reason why civil discussion is nonexistent in these elf-specific threads, as opposed to vitriol and libel.

[Mistic]

You're making the mistake of confusing how some Dalish see the city elves with how all of them perceive their Andrastian counterparts, and we also know that some city elves are guilty of the same. According to hahren Sarethia's commentary about Alienage Culture, he said: "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere." The City Elf Origin and "The Masked Empire" features Andrastian elves who invoke the term 'flat ear' as well, while some city elves in the Denerim Alienage denigrated the Dalish as nothing more than "savages".

 

No group in Thedas is perfect, but more than a few of the common criticisms made about some the Dalish also apply to some of the city elves as well. That said, I think that most Andrastian and Dalish elves can work together for the betterment of their people (as well as the Qunari elves).

 

I think the criticism about the Dalish is that they don't consider the City Elves "good enough". As you point out, it seems a common trend among the elves in general that the nearer you are to the humans, the less elf you are. Every party is guilty of that, but we have only seen Dalish going as far as to not consider the majority of the elves part of the People (I mean, even in this forum I've seen "the People" used as a synonym for the Dalish instead of the elves themselves).

 

As for the "savages", I only saw it in DA:O for Pol and Taeodor. In fact, most references to the Dalish among the elves in the Denerim alienage was about them being legendary or characters from children's fairy tales. And we know how Marethari was welcomed to the alienage in DA2 and what Briala knew of them before meeting Felassan. All in all, we've seen no City Elf saying that the Dalish aren't "true" elves, even if some of them may consider their cousins very barbarian.

[LobselVith8]

I think the criticism about the Dalish is that they don't consider the City Elves "good enough". As you point out, it seems a common trend among the elves in general that the nearer you are to the humans, the less elf you are. Every party is guilty of that, but we have only seen Dalish going as far as to not consider the majority of the elves part of the People (I mean, even in this forum I've seen "the People" used as a synonym for the Dalish instead of the elves themselves).

 

Probably because the city elves don't use the term to identify their people or culture, while the Dalish do (and it seems to invoke the same usage from some Native American tribes who also used the term to identify themselves); even Flemeth uses the term when she sees Merrill, one of the Dalish.

 

As for the "savages", I only saw it in DA:O for Pol and Taeodor. In fact, most references to the Dalish among the elves in the Denerim alienage was about them being legendary or characters from children's fairy tales. And we know how Marethari was welcomed to the alienage in DA2 and what Briala knew of them before meeting Felassan. All in all, we've seen no City Elf saying that the Dalish aren't "true" elves, even if some of them may consider their cousins very barbarian.

 

Marethari's acceptance in the Kirkwall Alienage is certainly a contrast to how some elves in the Denerim Alienage spoke about them, but we also have Arianni and Merrill living in the Alienage for years now. And if some Andrastian elves view elves who leave the Alienage as tossing away what makes them elven, then what I see is a double-standard in how the Dalish are condemned as a whole for the views held by some of them, while the same people don't comment on how some of the city elves are guilty of the same behavior.

[Mistic]

Probably because the city elves don't use the term to identify their people or culture, while the Dalish do (and it seems to invoke the same usage from some Native American tribes who also used the term to identify themselves); even Flemeth uses the term when she sees Merrill, one of the Dalish.

 

The very word 'elf' descends from 'Elvhen', the vhenadahl actually means "Tree of the People" and they are knowledgeable enough to take issue because of it, as shown if you take Fenris to the Dalish camp for the first time. That last part sells the deal, since the affected part is noticing the appropriation and taking offence.

 

Marethari's acceptance in the Kirkwall Alienage is certainly a contrast to how some elves in the Denerim Alienage spoke about them, but we also have Arianni and Merrill living in the Alienage for years now. And if some Andrastian elves view elves who leave the Alienage as tossing away what makes them elven, then what I see is a double-standard in how the Dalish are condemned as a whole for the views held by some of them, while the same people don't comment on how some of the city elves are guilty of the same behavior.

 

I agree, it's a double standard. However, there's another thing. The City Elves are dicriminating against a minority. Sad, but typical. The Dalish are discriminating against the majority. Jarring. I mean, from a purely democratic point of view, the City Elves would actually be the "true" elves, as in the ones who would define what the generalization for being an elf is, while the Dalish would be just an eccentric minority.

[LobselVith8]

The very word 'elf' descends from 'Elvhen', the vhenadahl actually means "Tree of the People" and they are knowledgeable enough to take issue because of it, as shown if you take Fenris to the Dalish camp for the first time. That last part sells the deal, since the affected part is noticing the appropriation and taking offence.

 

Technically, the issue in that scene is how the guard doesn't regard Fenris (and other non-Dalish elves) as elves, which is what Fenris and Varric will remark on in the scene. I honestly don't think the use of 'the People' holds the same connotation that you do, because it seems (to me) to be the developers invoking an aspect of Native American culture for a fictional race who already share some similarities to these real world groups.

 

As for the vernacular of the Andrastian elves, Gaider did say, "The Dalish know some of the language. Their mastery of it is far from complete, but most Keepers will encourage their clans to use it as much as they can, but even they will mix it with the King's Tongue when they must. Many Dalish, in fact, will only use the most common phrases because that's all they know. City elves, meanwhile, use some of the words like "shemlen" or "vhenadahl" because that's become part of their lexicon -- but ask the average elf what those words actually mean and they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. "Shemlen" is "human" to them, but not "quick children"."

 

I agree, it's a double standard. However, there's another thing. The City Elves are dicriminating against a minority. Sad, but typical. The Dalish are discriminating against the majority. Jarring. I mean, from a purely democratic point of view, the City Elves would actually be the "true" elves, as in the ones who would define what the generalization for being an elf is, while the Dalish would be just an eccentric minority.

 

We aren't privy to how many Dalish there are roaming the length and breadth of Thedas, in comparison to how many Andrastian elves there are in the Alienages or residing in the Dales, or even how many elves follow the Qun.

[Mistic]

Technically, the issue in that scene is how the guard doesn't regard Fenris (and other non-Dalish elves) as elves, which is what Fenris and Varric will remark on in the scene. I honestly don't think the use of 'the People' holds the same connotation that you do, because it seems (to me) to be the developers invoking an aspect of Native American culture for a fictional race who already share some similarities to these real world groups.

 

Yet the guards were actually using "the People" and "Elvhen" to make that distinction. So at least the Dalish know that connotation... and some of them still use it that way.

 

Hawke: "Who are you people?"

Guard 1: "We are the last of the Elvhen."

Varric: "Keep that in mind, Hawke. Elves you see elsewhere? Figments of your imagination."

Guard 2: "They have given up their identity to live amon shemlen. They are Elvhen no more."

 

As for the vernacular of the Andrastian elves, Gaider did say, "The Dalish know some of the language. Their mastery of it is far from complete, but most Keepers will encourage their clans to use it as much as they can, but even they will mix it with the King's Tongue when they must. Many Dalish, in fact, will only use the most common phrases because that's all they know. City elves, meanwhile, use some of the words like "shemlen" or "vhenadahl" because that's become part of their lexicon -- but ask the average elf what those words actually mean and they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. "Shemlen" is "human" to them, but not "quick children"."

 

I would agree if it was another word. But it's 'Elvhen'. The words 'elf' and 'elven' come directly from that concept and, as I just put before, Varric himself can notice the connotation right away.

 

We aren't privy to how many Dalish there are roaming the length and breadth of Thedas, in comparison to how many Andrastian elves there are in the Alienages or residing in the Dales, or even how many elves follow the Qun.

 

No, but we can make numbers.

 

According to WoT, Dalish live in "small bands, often made up of only blood relatives". That's not much. TME offers a number for the Virnehn clan: less than 50. Let's suppose that is the "often" WoT mentions (and still looks a lot for a band of only blood relatives). For alienage numbers, we know that in the alienage of Val Royeaux there are 10.000 elves. Of course, that is a big city, so it's probably one of the most populous alienages around, but that's 200 Virnehn clans. You would need 200 similar clans in Orlais just to make up for the Val Royeaux alienage. We can guess that there are more alienages in other Orlesian cities, and that's without taking Halamshiral into consideration, even if that is a strange case.

 

That's only in Orlais. Now add up every Andrastian country with alienages, then the Tevinter slaves and I suppose the Qunari elves too. Hell, Celene killing "a few thousand elven lives" in Halamshiral amounts for 20 Virnehn clans.

[Lady Nuggins]

No, but we can make numbers.

 

According to WoT, Dalish live in "small bands, often made up of only blood relatives". That's not much. TME offers a number for the Virnehn clan: less than 50. Let's suppose that is the "often" WoT mentions (and still looks a lot for a band of only blood relatives). For alienage numbers, we know that in the alienage of Val Royeaux there are 10.000 elves. Of course, that is a big city, so it's probably one of the most populous alienages around, but that's 200 Virnehn clans. You would need 200 similar clans in Orlais just to make up for the Val Royeaux alienage. We can guess that there are more alienages in other Orlesian cities, and that's without taking Halamshiral into consideration, even if that is a strange case.

 

That's only in Orlais. Now add up every Andrastian country with alienages, then the Tevinter slaves and I suppose the Qunari elves too. Hell, Celene killing "a few thousand elven lives" in Halamshiral amounts for 20 Virnehn clans.

 

That does seem to indicate that non-Dalish elves vastly outnumber the Dalish.  Which means that maybe any sort of elven revolution would need to come from within the Alienages.  Problem being that the Alienages are human-controlled, poverty-stricken, and probably isolated from all the other Alienages.  So the question becomes: what would it take for City Elves to have any sort of uprising, and how would they manage it? 

[StrangeStrategy]

Badly, I imagine.

 

Is there anyone in the fandom who actually has experience in managing a government?

 

That never stopped anyone from trying!

- I think every Dalish Keeper will be part of the "Council". They all have turns to discuss and "Arlathvhen" occurs more often, so they can always communicate. The First(s) will be in attendance, to listen and learn next to their keeper.

- City Elves will be allowed to worship the Maker. They will however, be kept further to the edges of the Dales when "Real" elves (IE the Dalish) get mad and blame the Maker-Worshipping flat ears for their lack of immortality despite the reunification of the elves. C'mon, we know it will happen.

 

- The City Elves serve as diplomats and are the only ones who will regularly/commonly deal with humans, if they wish. To attain immortality, they need to separate from humans after all... So the Dalish will be reclusive, the City Elves won't need to change much.

 

- Worship of the Maker will be permitted by anyone. This is half to keep the Chantry placated, even if they've lost their Templars (And ability to Exalted March?) but those who worship the Maker won't be at the heart of the Dales. They'll be closer to humans... And who am I kidding, looked down upon.

 

- The elves (all of them) will try to have few dealings with the humans and dwarves and qunari. They will deal when necessary to prevent the Fall of the Dales 2.0, but they won't let humans inside the Dales.

 

- Those who wish to leave the Dales are free to do so, clans are free to wander, so long as they return to report at Arlathvhen every now and then with old knowledge they may have found.

[Tevinter Rose]

That does seem to indicate that non-Dalish elves vastly outnumber the Dalish.  Which means that maybe any sort of elven revolution would need to come from within the Alienages.  Problem being that the Alienages are human-controlled, poverty-stricken, and probably isolated from all the other Alienages.  So the question becomes: what would it take for City Elves to have any sort of uprising, and how would they manage it? 

 

That's a good question. I honestly don't know what it will take since alienage elves have a lot of atrocities committed against them already and haven't had a proper uprising yet. I'm guessing it will take the Inquisitor to shake things up and help lead them in their revolution

[LobselVith8]

Yet the guards were actually using "the People" and "Elvhen" to make that distinction. So at least the Dalish know that connotation... and some of them still use it that way.

 

Hawke: "Who are you people?"

Guard 1: "We are the last of the Elvhen."

Varric: "Keep that in mind, Hawke. Elves you see elsewhere? Figments of your imagination."

Guard 2: "They have given up their identity to live amon shemlen. They are Elvhen no more."

 

I'm still not seeing how the term "the People" is equivalent to the view that only the Dalish are truly elves.

 

I would agree if it was another word. But it's 'Elvhen'. The words 'elf' and 'elven' come directly from that concept and, as I just put before, Varric himself can notice the connotation right away.

 

In a sentence where the guard states that the Dalish are the last remnants of the elves, not in terms of the usage of "the People".

 

According to WoT, Dalish live in "small bands, often made up of only blood relatives". That's not much. TME offers a number for the Virnehn clan: less than 50. Let's suppose that is the "often" WoT mentions (and still looks a lot for a band of only blood relatives). For alienage numbers, we know that in the alienage of Val Royeaux there are 10.000 elves. Of course, that is a big city, so it's probably one of the most populous alienages around, but that's 200 Virnehn clans. You would need 200 similar clans in Orlais just to make up for the Val Royeaux alienage. We can guess that there are more alienages in other Orlesian cities, and that's without taking Halamshiral into consideration, even if that is a strange case.

 

That's only in Orlais. Now add up every Andrastian country with alienages, then the Tevinter slaves and I suppose the Qunari elves too. Hell, Celene killing "a few thousand elven lives" in Halamshiral amounts for 20 Virnehn clans.

 

The problem is we don't know how many clans there are, simply that there are Dalish roaming most of the continent. The fact that there are multiple clans within a specific region (hence how the elven messenger was able to rally other clans to contribute to participating against the Fifth Blight) only confounds any attempt to try to quantify how many Dalish elves there are in total.

[Samahl]

So the question becomes: what would it take for City Elves to have any sort of uprising, and how would they manage it? 

 

With the help of Briala and the eluvian network, presumably.

[Master Warder Z_]

With the help of Briala and the eluvian network, presumably.

 

Those seem to be buried for the most part and in remote locations, moving them would require much effort and expense and news like that doesn't stay secret, besides both factions of Orlais know about her and the mirrors.

 

You think they will leave her be?

[Samahl]

You think they will leave her be?

 

I don't know, as I haven't read TME and have been relying on what other posters have said about it.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't know, as I haven't read TME and have been relying on what other posters have said about it.

I'd recommend it. Pretty good book with lots of lore goodies. However, Z is right. Both sides know what to look for and are fully aware of the eluvians and their capabilities.

[Samahl]

I'd recommend it. Pretty good book with lots of lore goodies.

 

I might pick it up once it's actually in at the library. I wonder if demand will increase or decrease following Inquisition...?

[Steelcan]

That does seem to indicate that non-Dalish elves vastly outnumber the Dalish.  Which means that maybe any sort of elven revolution would need to come from within the Alienages.  Problem being that the Alienages are human-controlled, poverty-stricken, and probably isolated from all the other Alienages.  So the question becomes: what would it take for City Elves to have any sort of uprising, and how would they manage it? 

Short of acquisition of vast amounts of armaments and a few geniuses to lead them, I don't see it happening

[Master Warder Z_]

Short of acquisition of vast amounts of armaments and a few geniuses to lead them, I don't see it happening

 

Also they wouldn't have the ability or skill to counteract the ability of the royal armies of the various nations they are within, say they actually initially succeed and push the local noble's forces out, what does that accomplish other then him running to the monarchy?

[Steelcan]

Also they wouldn't have the ability or skill to counter act the ability of the royal armies of the various nations they are within, say they actually initially succeed and push the local noble's forces out, what does that accomplish other then him running to the monarchy?

they also lack basic tools like horses for cavalry

[Master Warder Z_]

they also lack basic tools like horses for cavalry

 

And the chevaliers are the best mounted force in the known world...

[Steelcan]

And the chevaliers are the best mounted force in the known world...

https://www.youtube....h?v=EmTz7EAYLrs

 

just replace the corrupted elves with moronic ones