695 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

They can certainly try. Even if it only lasts for a century or less its still home. Unless there's a thedosian Hitler I doubt the elves be extinct. I see city elves lasting longer and integrating better with the other races than the xenophobic dalish.

Slavery isn't legal anymore. It'll take a LONG time for to change other's minds, but take a look at American history from the end of slavery to the civil rights movement.

All it takes is a few progressive individuals to make a small change. Then again this is a fictional world that has worse things to deal with

[Master Warder Z_]

if its a circle, where's my annulment option?

 

Ha!

[TheJediSaint]

if its a circle, where's my annulment option?

I think the best you can do is make sure you're not standing in the middle.

[Mistic]

I've been preaching Valley of the flowers for nearly a year, and TME only cemented my view on it.

 

Valley of the flowers?

[TheJediSaint]

Valley of the flowers?

I think he's referring to the Elven enclave in the Witcher series.  

[Mistic]

I think he's referring to the Elven enclave in the Witcher series.  

 

Ah, I get it now. Yes, that could work. I suppose the patron would be the neighbouring Orlesian Empire in the place of Nilfgaard. The civil war would actually be the ideal place for that. The same Wynne hoped that the mages could get a better treatment by helping Celene in the war (until the Mage-Templar war crushed all her hopes), the elves could be the element that would tip the balance... in exchange of autonomy. No Orlesian ruler would accept a complete secession of Orlesian territory, but a vassal state? That sounds more likely.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ah, I get it now. Yes, that could work. I suppose the patron would be the neighbouring Orlesian Empire in the place of Nilfgaard. The civil war would actually be the ideal place for that. The same Wynne hoped that the mages could get a better treatment by helping Celene in the war (until the Mage-Templar war crushed all her hopes), the elves could be the element that would tip the balance... in exchange of autonomy. No Orlesian ruler would accept a complete secession of Orlesian territory, but a vassal state? That sounds more likely.

 

The Valley is the perfect model.

 

It is Orelsian land, but ruled by eleven nobles, they tithe to the Monarchy, They enlist in its legions, they work its farms, but the land is theirs.

 

There they can live and be among their own kind, living under the law and influence of the Empire, Its not going to be a perfect solution and it likely wouldn't be easy.

 

But i think having elven soldiers, business men, and nobles interacting with their various counterparts would go a long way to mending some rifts, ALSO shared religion.

 

I CANNOT over stress that bit, there is no way i would support this only to have my hard work go up in flames in a century or so because the elves decided to alienate their trading partners and protectors by offending them on the religion issue again.

[Mistic]

The Valley is the perfect model.

 

It is Orelsian land, but ruled by eleven nobles, they tithe to the Monarchy, They enlist in its legions, they work its farms, but the land is theirs.

 

Yes, it sounds exactly like what Celene offered to the Dalish. Of course, they didn't like it.

 

"You seek to offer a partnership, to let us sit in Halamshiral and deal with shemlen merchants and flat-eared peasants who have forgotten everything of ancient Elvhenan, and bow to you on your throne in Val Royeaux."

 

Truth be told, even worded by the Keeper, it didn't look like a bad deal. Another thing is if Celene would have kept her word. Probably not, but maybe the Orlesian candidates will be more eager to negotiate now that a coup d'etat attempt has turned into a bloody civil war.

[Steelcan]

Yes, it sounds exactly like what Celene offered to the Dalish. Of course, they didn't like it.

 

"You seek to offer a partnership, to let us sit in Halamshiral and deal with shemlen merchants and flat-eared peasants who have forgotten everything of ancient Elvhenan, and bow to you on your throne in Val Royeaux."

 

Truth be told, even worded by the Keeper, it didn't look like a bad deal. Another thing is if Celene would have kept her word. Probably not, but maybe the Orlesian candidates will be more eager to negotiate now that a coup d'etat attempt has turned into a bloody civil war.

 

Bending the knee is their only hope basically by this point, an independent kingdom isn't feasible for a variety of reasons, lack of international support, low population numbers, no economic development, etc...

 

Swallowing their pride and submitting will give them a way to preserve their culture and way of life, and reduce hostile exposure to humanity.

[Dean_the_Young]

...Because this thread did not have enough snark. /sigh

 

If you don't enjoy liberal heapings of snark, you are in the entirely wrong franchise.
 

[A Clever Name]

Bending the knee is their only hope basically by this point, an independent kingdom isn't feasible for a variety of reasons, lack of international support, low population numbers, no economic development, etc...

 

Swallowing their pride and submitting will give them a way to preserve their culture and way of life, and reduce hostile exposure to humanity.

Were I not so convinced the Dalish that make those decisions were stuck in their ways (such as Thelhen, what a dork), I'd say this is a really compelling compromise.  It's not like Celene ever said anything about forced conversion, right?  At least not that I can recall.  So the only thing holding them back, really, is the need to be "elves" again, reclaiming glories that have been lost and all that.  Focusing more on their security might give them the chance to move on and build their identities further, and could in the best case scenario ease racial tensions.  If you're feeling particularly optimistic about how it'd turn out.

 

You can have pride in your cultural identity without it putting a stranglehold on that identity's continued existence, after all.  Showing that your beliefs aren't harmful to another group's is a good way to start.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, it sounds exactly like what Celene offered to the Dalish. Of course, they didn't like it.

 

"You seek to offer a partnership, to let us sit in Halamshiral and deal with shemlen merchants and flat-eared peasants who have forgotten everything of ancient Elvhenan, and bow to you on your throne in Val Royeaux."

 

Truth be told, even worded by the Keeper, it didn't look like a bad deal. Another thing is if Celene would have kept her word. Probably not, but maybe the Orlesian candidates will be more eager to negotiate now that a coup d'etat attempt has turned into a bloody civil war.

 

Thelhen is hardly an example of how most Dalish would act when the People written about in elven lore and the clans we have encountered exhibited the exact opposite in terms of their attitude. Although given how little Celene's word means, it's probably for the best that her offer for "honorary lordship" wasn't accepted; having the Dales as a protectorate state wouldn't change the purges against elven populations, the abuse committed by Orlesian nobles, or the murders done by chevaliers as part of their initiation rite. Genuine autonomy for the Dales would prevent the Orlesians from having that kind of power in the elven kingdom.

[Master Warder Z_]

Genuine autonomy 

 

Is an impossibility unless if 90% of the world suddenly died.

[dragonflight288]

Is an impossibility unless if 90% of the world suddenly died.

 

Or if the neighboring country in question felt it was more prudent to focus their efforts elsewhere. 

[Han Shot First]

 Genuine autonomy for the Dales would prevent the Orlesians from having that kind of power in the elven kingdom.

 

Full autonomy is a bit of a pipe dream for the elves though. The Dalish don't have the numbers to maintain and keep secure an independent Elvish nation while surrounded by warlike human neighbors. An elven nation that isn't a vassal to a more powerful human state, like Orlais or Nevarra, is on borrowed time IMO. Eventually there is going to be war and it is going to share Arlathan's fate.

 

Their best bet would be an arrangement where they are vassals to one of the more powerful human kings or queens, so that they have a powerful protector, and so that they manage to keep their human neighbors divided rather than unified against them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or if the neighboring country in question felt it was more prudent to focus their efforts elsewhere. 

 

Your joking right?

 

It would be akin to the Qunari establishing a fortress city smack dab in the middle of Fereldan.

 

A random kingdom is suddenly subjected to the establishment of an illegal elven state within their lands.

 

It would be obliterated the minute the coin was available to pay the army to march.

 

Maybe even before that.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's not exactly their land if they have to bow to the Orlesian monarch who owns it, and who could tell them how to run it or kick them off whenever s/he wants.

 

And?

 

It's a place for them to live among their own, be ruled by their own, have successful, productive and beneficial lives.

 

They just have to accept reality and submit to human rule.

 

Maybe contribute forces for the army, and tithe to the Chantry or Monarchy or both.

 

It seems far more probable then marching to war against a race that is destined to win that conflict.

[LobselVith8]

Full autonomy is a bit of a pipe dream for the elves though. The Dalish don't have the numbers to maintain and keep secure an independent Elvish nation while surrounded by warlike human neighbors. An elven nation that isn't a vassal to a more powerful human state, like Orlais or Nevarra, is on borrowed time IMO. Eventually there is going to be war and it is going to share Arlathan's fate.

 

Their best bet would be an arrangement where they are vassals to one of the more powerful human kings or queens, so that they have a powerful protector, and so that they manage to keep their human neighbors divided rather than unified against them.

 

I don't share the opinion that it's a "pipe dream", particularly when Ferelden is weakened by the Blight and Orlais may suffer substantially because of the civil war and the Breach. Hypothetically speaking, there's also the inclusion of the Inquisitor and the support of the Inquisition. It wouldn't be out of bounds for the elves to reclaim control of the Dales, and maintain their independence from the Orlesian Empire.

 

Then again, the title for this thread is "Elf Supporters: How would you run a homeland?" It's not about debating the merits of a hypothetical elven homeland, but how one would preferably manage it.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't share the opinion that it's a "pipe dream", particularly when Ferelden is weakened by the Blight and Orlais may suffer substantially because of the civil war and the Breach. 

 

And you think the damage from that will last forever? Kingdoms rebuild, Empire are reforged.

 

That seems to be the thinking behind the invasion following a blight by the Dalish, and they were MUCH stronger then the elves today and they still lost.

[CrazyGobstopper]

The opening post appears to put aside the question of precisely how an elven population would come to control enough territory to constitute a homeland, so I will as well and focus simply on thoughts on governance and society.

 

One of the first questions that I think would need to be addressed is: What are the different factions? The Dalish are an obvious group, as are "City Elves" in the abstract. But neither category is wholly discrete unto itself. As the games and novels have told us, it is not uncommon for Dalish clans to go many years without having contact with another clan, at least until Arlathvhen is called. Due to this, some clans may have diverged culturally from others.

 

As far as City Elves are concerned, those living in Fereldan may potentially differ significantly from those living in Orlais - and those living in Nevarra, in Rivain, in Antiva, in Tevinter, and in various Free Marcher city-states. City elves from one Marcher city versus another may add to the complexity. And then, of course, you have elves who have lived in villages, rather than cities, all their lives. Should those elves be considered to be "city elves" as well, or should they be a separate group all on their own?

 

Based on historical migration patterns in our own world's history, cultural groups tend to stay close to one another when they move to a new land. For the sake of argument, I shall assume this would hold true in Thedas, as well. I don't think that is an unreasonable assumption to make, as people tend to prefer the familiar to the unfamiliar. I will postulate, then, that city elves from one nation are likely to migrate to the same areas of this new elven homeland as others of their original nation. As has already been remarked upon previously in this thread, we don't know what the population levels of elves - whether that be Dalish elves or city elves, or all elves total - is like in Thedas. However, if we assume each Thedosian nation that is likely to have a large exodus of elves to this new homeland has an elven population that can support one moderately-sized city, then we can expect a minimum of seven cities in the new nation¹.

 

The Dalish present a possible problem to that model. Some clans would probably welcome the chance to finally settle in one area, rather than so frequently be on the move before coming under attack from humans. The Dalish have been nomads for such a long period of time, though, that it may have become so engrained into their worldview of who they are that other clans may prefer to stay nomads even within the borders of their own nation. In any event, I would hope that enough Dalish clans would want to have one place to call "home" that they, too, could support a city of their own. I do think we can infer from the existence of Arlathvhen that the Dalish desire to be among their own kind - they simply have to be very careful about it currently and can't do it frequently, lest they invite undesirable attention.

 

Unfortunately, the existence of one Dalish city compared to the existence of potentially a minimum of seven "city elf" cities is lopsided in representation against the Dalish. To attempt providing some measure of balance, I would expect the Dalish city to be the capital of this new homeland. The faith of the Creators would be the "official" religion of this new nation, but the high number of Andrastian elves would necessitate a level of religious tolerance that may be unprecedented in Thedas. The Chantry would be tolerated under the proviso that no organized force of Templars (or other militant arm) would be welcome, though there would be exceptions for small groups to act as bodyguards for Chantry representatives. There would also be a strong expectation that Chantry representatives within the border of this new nation would include Andrastian elves. All elves would be encouraged to learn as much about their historic roots as the various Dalish clans could possibly teach. Any clans that remain nomadic could be especially useful in this, as they could continue to spread elven history as they travel the nation.

 

Due to the varying national cultural heritages of city elves and their different upbringings compared to Dalish elves, the idea of a confederation of city-states within this new elven homeland is an enticing one. Unfortunately, I would think that a loose confederation would invite outside interference more quickly than would a united elven nation, as the potential for "divide and conquer" would be greater. The city elves in at least Fereldan and Kirkwall are used to a sort of consensus politics in which the (alienage) community attempts to decide upon matters as a group when possible. To city elves, hahrens are administrators and the closest example they have to a "mayor" (or bann). This seems to me a workable basis for the cities, then - elect a council of "elders" from the most respected members of the city, then that council can choose from among their number one "prime elder" to represent the city as a whole. Since elves from many alienages are likely to be converging into one city, the earliest such councils could conceivably be formed entirely by any already-chosen hahrens who have emigrated.

 

Towns, farming villages and other lands outside the confines of a city would be subject to the nearest city in boundary lines determined by the national government in a manner similar to the way freeholds and villages in Fereldan are subject to a bann or arl. They would not necessarily have representation of their own at the national level, though towns at the least should choose hahrens / elders to guide their daily lives.

 

In the Dalish city, much the same model may follow. The Keepers and Firsts would likely be looked upon to form governing councils, and from this number a "prime Keeper" should be chosen to represent the city as a whole. To the Dalish, hahrens are typically storytellers and caretakers of children, though they are of course still respected elders. As such, hahrens and warleaders may also be likely candidates for governmental leadership in the fledgling nation. 

 

So far I have described mainly a confederation-style system that I mused above I would likely want to avoid. As the capital city of the new elven nation, the Dalish city would also be the seat of its ruler - an elected position. This would not, however, be an attempt at mass democracy. Rather, a Landsmeet-esque gathering would be called wherein representatives of each city² would choose a leader. This position would be a life-long appointment, though the intention would not be for it to give birth to dynasties. The ruler would appoint his or her own choices to fill out an advisory cabinet to form the basis for the national government.

 

Taxes would be levied generally at the city level, though each city would be required to tithe portions of its tax revenue up to the national government for use in advancing national interests. A new order of Emerald Knights would be established to serve as the homeland's army. Logically, Dalish warleaders and warriors would initially form the founding corps of this order, and they would likely be instrumental in training city guard forces as well.

 

While the Dalish would likely prefer to remain isolationist, city elves would recognize the futility of such a measure. As such, economic and diplomatic relations with human nations - and Orzammar and/or Kal'Hirol, if at all possible - would be inevitable. Tevinter and Orlais are probably not the best options for interaction, but Fereldan, the Free Marches, Antiva, and Rivain could all be possibilities. Items for economic trade could consist of elven craftsmanship (who else can work wood the way the Dalish can?); crops from farmland; minerals, gems, and stones mined from the land; etc. An exchange of diplomats with at least one other human nation would be necessary for the new country to stand as its own entity among the nations of Thedas, and it would be particularly important for the new nation to attempt to forge lasting diplomatic relationships.

 

Humans will almost certainly have to be tolerated within the borders of this new nation, as the elves will need merchants to bring in goods and necessities from other areas of Thedas. They may even need to hire humans and dwarves to help with the initial construction of new towns and cities - or at the very least to pass such necessary knowledge and skills on to elves. As in any other Thedosian nation, humans, dwarves, and qunari in the elven homeland would be subject to elven law. As elves have no representation in the governments of the human or dwarven nations, neither would individuals of other races have representation within the various governmental levels of the elven homeland. This does not mean that individuals of other races would not be able to own land and reside within the nation and have the protection of the law.

 

As for mages, the Dalish model should be adopted. Mages are rare enough as it is, and if trained and taught to respect their power they could be valuable members of society. They should not be shunned and locked away from society at large.

 

 

At the moment I can't think of anything else to say, and I doubt anyone will be crazy enough to read this wall-o-text anyway.  

 

 

¹ This assumption counts the Free Marches region as "one nation," rather than each city-state properly as its own sovereign nation, for the purposes of expediency.

² Assuming, as before, that generally one city = one elven faction.

[A Clever Name]

I don't share the opinion that it's a "pipe dream", particularly when Ferelden is weakened by the Blight and Orlais may suffer substantially because of the civil war and the Breach. Hypothetically speaking, there's also the inclusion of the Inquisitor and the support of the Inquisition. It wouldn't be out of bounds for the elves to reclaim control of the Dales, and maintain their independence from the Orlesian Empire.

 

Then again, the title for this thread is "Elf Supporters: How would you run a homeland?" It's not about debating the merits of a hypothetical elven homeland, but how one would preferably manage it.

But of course you're right.  This isn't about if an elven nation-state could, would or should exist, nor how it might fare.  This is about, if it did exist, how would we want to see it governed?  I love reading people's ideas on the subject, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.  To be completely honest I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of an elven homeland, just a bit leery.  After all, you trade one problem for another no matter what direction you take.  Every solution is going to have its drawbacks.  We just decide which are the most palatable.

 

 

 

Cheers to CrazyGobstopper for such a well thought out post!  I totally read all of it.     It sounds fairly workable, and I'm not ashamed to admit it's better than my own ponderings on the concept of an elven nation-state.

[dragonflight288]

Your joking right?

 

It would be akin to the Qunari establishing a fortress city smack dab in the middle of Fereldan.

 

A random kingdom is suddenly subjected to the establishment of an illegal elven state within their lands.

 

It would be obliterated the minute the coin was available to pay the army to march.

 

Maybe even before that.

 

If you were the emperor of Orlais, and you had Gaspard leading a civil war, a giant breach in the sky raining demons into your lands with new breaches opening, a mage and templar war throughout the kingdom, and a few elves setting up a homeland on the outskirts of your kingdom in a place most humans had abandoned because of all the previous troubles, where exactly would you put the highest priority? 

 

Kicking out the elves?

 

You only have limited resources and personnel. Are the elves setting up a homeland really such a big threat to the security of your nation that the civil war, the mage and templar war, and raining demons simply don't compare and most of your troops go to sorting out elves?

[Steelcan]

It's not exactly their land if they have to bow to the Orlesian monarch who owns it, and who could tell them how to run it or kick them off whenever s/he wants.

 

 

So you're admitting the Orlesian monarchy could go back on their word at any moment, but a situation in which the Dalish would merely run a speck of human land under the authority of human overlords is a "good deal"?

And its abetter deal than wandering the wilds shunned at every turn, they can either settle down or be blown aside.  Nomadic cultures do not fare well when up against sedentary civilizations

[Steelcan]

And you think the damage from that will last forever? Kingdoms rebuild, Empire are reforged.

 

That seems to be the thinking behind the invasion following a blight by the Dalish, and they were MUCH stronger then the elves today and they still lost.

The Irish had a similar idea in 1916, as did the Gauls in 60 BC