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Guest_Faerunner_*
yes, the poor, unlanded, politically unrepresented, elves and humans alike
I have yet to see evidence that humans suffer attacks just as frequently, openly, and in just as great a number as elves.
All I'm seeing are arguments that "humans are occasionally victims = frequently and disproportionately far more often victims."
I have yet to see evidence that humans suffer attacks just as frequently, openly, and in just as great a number as elves.
All I'm seeing are arguments that "humans are occasionally victims = frequently and disproportionately far more often victims."
we don't exactly have access to the numbers now do we, but since human peasants are just as powerless and more numerous I doubt that the nobles only focus on elves for...reasons...
if you have a dev statement that conclusively says that elves suffer it more often then I will agree with you, in the absence of such I will assume the rates are roughly equal
if you have a dev statement that conclusively says that elves suffer it more often then I will agree with you, in the absence of such I will assume the rates are roughly equal
Why would you assume this? You have to the ignore the evidence we do have access to in order to reach this conclusion.
And hell, there's even the fact that a common occupation for elves is prostitution, and there's plenty of rape in that business.
Why would you assume this? You have to the ignore the evidence we do have access to in order to reach this conclusion.
And hell, there's even the fact that a common occupation for elves is prostitution, and there's plenty of rape in that business.
You don't have a dev statement do you
I have yet to see evidence that humans suffer attacks just as frequently, openly, and in just as great a number as elves.
All I'm seeing are arguments that "humans are occasionally victims = frequently and disproportionately far more often victims."
Prove they don't.
You've only seen elves because that's generally what the stories focus on. Have we had a "Denerim Human Peasant" Origin? How about an "Orlesian Serf" Origin, which game was that in?
Your argument boils down to ignoring or trying to downplay what doesn't fit your scenario, and assuming that the vacuum you want to work in is the only one that exists.
Prove they don't.
We can't "prove" anything. We can make conclusions based on the information we have available to us, though.
Your argument boils down to ignoring or trying to downplay what doesn't fit your scenario, and assuming that the vacuum you want to work in is the only one that exists.
lol
in DA2 we see Fereldens being turned back, sent back into the jowls of evil incarnate and others forced into menial almost slave labor by free marchers, I imagine that rapes and other forms of violence were also common.
The story doesn't focus on this, because the narrative isn't designed around human serfs
The alienage in Kirkwall is even more dilapidated than the rest of Lowtown. Elves are even poorer than poor humans.
in DA2 we see Fereldens being turned back, sent back into the jowls of evil incarnate and others forced into menial almost slave labor by free marchers, I imagine that rapes and other forms of violence were also common.
No one is trying to argue that peasants and serfs aren't raped. We're well aware that they are. The question is one of scale: are they raped as often as elves are? Are humans who rape humans able to get away with it as easily as humans who rape elves? What we've seen so far suggests "no".
No one is trying to argue that peasants and serfs aren't raped. We're well aware that they are. The question is one of scale: are they raped as often as elves are? Are humans who rape humans able to get away with it as easily as humans who rape elves? What we've seen so far suggests "no".
What we've seen so far isn't enough to call without a dev statement because we have yet to get a good look into the world of human peasants or serfs. We've seen the alienages and we've seen castles, not human huts
The alienage in Kirkwall is even more dilapidated than the rest of Lowtown. Elves are even poorer than poor humans.
Darktown is the worst area in Kirkwall apparently.
Even the alienage is preferable. And there's humans and elves alike in darktown.
What we've seen so far isn't enough to call without a dev statement because we have yet to get a good look into the world of human peasants or serfs. We've seen the alienages and we've seen castles, not human huts
I don't think we need a dev statement, you just need to look at Thedas. We don't need a dev statement to see that magesare seen as dangerous by people who haven't ever seen one because the Chnatry demonizes them. Similrly the Chantry goes to great lengths to never address the way the elves have been screwed over, and when they are taken in the middle of a wedding ceremony with a Chantry sister right there they do nothing. Whent hey find out Loghain is selling them into slavery all you get is a declaration that this will be discussed later. Because Ferelden doesn't deal in slaves. Elves aren't acctually people as far as the Chantry is concerned, and that spreads through the rest of Thedas.
Guest_Faerunner_*
when they move on from attacking guards to looting houses and such, then yes, they have brought the rule of law down upon themselves. No one deserves to exist at the whim of those in power, but violence is not the best tool for achieving it.
And when elves play nice but humans and local law enforcement attack them anyway, they're supposed to just sit there and take it?
Humans frequently attack, provoke, and drive elves to desperation while law enforcement either helps or looks on, yet they always bring the violence completely on themselves.
Yes it is paternalistic because the elves don't have a lot of other options. They can't effectively militarize because they lack weapons, training, infrastructure to support a war, and their centers of population are within human cities, armed revolt won't work in the long run.
And it's not like any of these situations can change. It's not like given time, opportunity and resources they can learn to militarize, gain weapons, train in fighting, move their centers of population outside human cities, create their own infrastructure, learn to govern and defend themselves so they don't have to rely on humans to do it for them, etc. NOPE. Their current skills, knowledge, resources and situation is cast in stone. It's completely permanent and will always be as it is now, so the only option is to keep treating them like helpless children at the mercy of an abusive and unpredictable parents.
Paternalism is so peculiar to me. It advocates subjugating a person or people "for their own good" because "they don't have the knowledge/resources to govern themselves" ... but the very reason they don't have the knowledge/resources to govern themselves is because of the aforementioned subjugation. It's like keeping a bird in a cage on the excuse that "it can't fly," but the reason it can't fly because there's no room in the cage. Rather than letting it out and letting it learn/extend it's wings, they keep it in the cage on account of lack of flight. Elves largely don't yet know how to collectively govern or defend themselves because humans have forcibly prevented them for centuries, therefore elves should just keep accepting human government and law enforcement over them instead of humans backing off and letting them learn how to manage themselves.
No one is trying to argue that peasants and serfs aren't raped. We're well aware that they are. The question is one of scale: are they raped as often as elves are? Are humans who rape humans able to get away with it as easily as humans who rape elves? What we've seen so far suggests "no".
Show me the comparison cases that allow you to draw this conclusion. Show me a human peasant or serf who was abused and received justice. Show me all this data you have on the serfs and peasants of Thedas that allows you to state that humans of equal social standing to elves aren't treated with equal disregard.
You can't, because that's not what the story has focused on. However, the poor humans we have met are generally treated just as badly, as the examples given have shown.
Were Loghain and his father able to appeal to the local magistrate? Were Liselle and her brother allowed to appeal to the Chevalier's superiors? Did either receive official justice? Show me where humans in the same situation somehow have it better.
I don't think we need a dev statement, you just need to look at Thedas. We don't need a dev statement to see that magesare seen as dangerous by people who haven't ever seen one because the Chnatry demonizes them. Similrly the Chantry goes to great lengths to never address the way the elves have been screwed over, and when they are taken in the middle of a wedding ceremony with a Chantry sister right there they do nothing. Whent hey find out Loghain is selling them into slavery all you get is a declaration that this will be discussed later. Because Ferelden doesn't deal in slaves. Elves aren't acctually people as far as the Chantry is concerned, and that spreads through the rest of Thedas.
instead of selling them into slavery Loghain was just killing them outright in his Civil War, yes they had it so much better
Whent hey find out Loghain is selling them into slavery all you get is a declaration that this will be discussed later.
Isn't it actually one of the least convincing arguments you can use in the Landsmeet?
Isn't it actually one of the least convincing arguments you can use in the Landsmeet?
Yep. I think only going on about Ostagar is worse. Well that or being an idiot and blackmailing people.
But rich nobles caring only about themselves isn't news.
And when elves play nice but humans and local law enforcement attack them anyway, they're supposed to just sit there and take it?
Humans frequently attack, provoke, and drive elves to desperation while law enforcement either helps or looks on, yet they always bring the violence completely on themselves.
And it's not like any of these situations can change. It's not like given time, opportunity and resources they can learn to militarize, gain weapons, train in fighting, move their centers of population outside human cities, create their own infrastructure, learn to govern and defend themselves so they don't have to rely on humans to do it for them, etc. NOPE. Their current skills, knowledge, resources and situation is cast in stone. It's completely permanent and will always be as it is now, so the only option is to keep treating them like helpless children at the mercy of an abusive and unpredictable parents.
Paternalism is so peculiar to me. It advocates subjugating a person or people "for their own good" because "they don't have the knowledge/resources to govern themselves" ... but the very reason they don't have the knowledge/resources to govern themselves is because of the aforementioned subjugation. It's like keeping a bird in a cage on the excuse that "it can't fly," but the reason it can't fly because there's no room in the cage. Rather than letting it out and letting it learn/extend it's wings, they keep it in the cage on account of lack of flight. Elves largely don't yet know how to collectively govern or defend themselves because humans have forcibly prevented them for centuries, therefore elves should just keep accepting human government and law enforcement over them instead of humans backing off and letting them learn how to manage themselves.
As I said, then it is ok to defend themselves, I did not defend Howe or Vaughn or anything of the sort, they were scum, and laws need to be implemented to protect the rights of city elves from scum like them. Why that isn't satisfactory to you is a bit beyond my understanding, could you perhaps clarify?
They've been in Alienages for the better part of a millennia, before that the Dales fell, before that Arlathan, clearly progress on that front is not coming, they can keep holding out I suppose, but I don't see it going very well.
Your tone seems to indicate that you are simply being hostile for hostility's sake, and I'd ask you to dial it back a bit please
Guest_Faerunner_*
Prove they don't.
You've only seen elves because that's generally what the stories focus on. Have we had a "Denerim Human Peasant" Origin? How about an "Orlesian Serf" Origin, which game was that in?
Your argument boils down to ignoring or trying to downplay what doesn't fit your scenario, and assuming that the vacuum you want to work in is the only one that exists.
The burden of proof is on you, not on us. If you're going to argue that poor humans suffer just as much as elves, you better back that up with evidence.
The burden of proof is on you, not on us. If you're going to argue that poor humans suffer just as much as elves, you better back that up with evidence.
evidence is chevalier conduct against human populations as evidenced by Loghain's dialogue and the girl in the market, the behavior of Free Marchers towards Fereldens, Orlais's wars against other human nations, etc...
Now the ball is in your court
Recall now, no one here is suggesting that the elves don't have it bad. They absolutely do.
Being victims, however, does not somehow make them immune to the consequences of open rebellion, nor does it make them some special case when a monarch deals with said rebellion by violently suppressing it.
Recall now, no one here is suggesting that the elves don't have it bad. They absolutely do.
Being victims, however, does not somehow make them immune to the consequences of open rebellion, nor does it make them some special case when a monarch deals with said rebellion by violently suppressing it.
They wouldn't be rebelling in the first place if they felt like they had another choice.
They wouldn't be rebelling in the first place if they felt like they had another choice.
and its a shortsighted and ultimately foolish idea, starting a rebellion they have little hope of winning will only serve to further antagonize human nobility, ie the ones best suited to help them.
Armed insurrection has a notoriously poor track record for gaining greater rights
They wouldn't be rebelling in the first place if they felt like they had another choice.
Why should motive matter when judging the monarch's response? The point here is that if the human peasantry were in open rebellion, the response would have been the same.
In fact, we know from TME that human communities don't even need to be in open rebellion. They can simply be suspected of maybe possibly being in position to aid rebellion and be punished for it.
Darktown is the worst area in Kirkwall apparently.
Even the alienage is preferable. And there's humans and elves alike in darktown.
I don't want to get too involved in this discussion, but according to Varric, the elves still have it worse than the humans in Darktown. To paraphrase, he said "I'd hate to be an elf living in Darktown," or something along those lines. I think it was in response to someone complaining about the alienage... the point is, everything in the game suggests that elves are at the bottom of the social ladder. These comparisons with human commoners are baseless and ignore everything we've witnessed and been told about human society.
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