695 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

These comparisons with human commoners are baseless and ignore everything we've witnessed and been told about human society.

Could you then explain to me what was wrong with the evidence I listed above?

 

or other posts even before that?

[Ryzaki]

I don't want to get too involved in this discussion, but according to Varric, the elves still have it worse than the humans in Darktown.  To paraphrase, he said "I'd hate to be an elf living in Darktown," or something along those lines.  I think it was in response to someone complaining about the alienage...  the point is, everything in the game suggests that elves are at the bottom of the social ladder.  These comparisons with human commoners are baseless and ignore everything we've witnessed and been told about human society.

 

Oh I never said they weren't at the bottom. I'm just saying they're not alone down there. The humans in darktown are probably treated better. But I highly doubt it's by any significant amount. An elf in the alienage probably has it better than a human in darktown, a human in lowtown has it better than an elf in the alienage, so on.

 

Also I'm pretty sure Varric's reaction was "you think this is bad? I'd hate to be an elf living in Darktown."

[Icy Magebane]

Could you then explain to me what was wrong with the evidence I listed above?

 

or other posts even before that?

I just pointed out one case of ignoring evidence in the game that elves have it worse than humans.  That is true in Darktown but people either didn't remember or chose to ignore Varric's assessment.  I'm not interested in trying to change anyone's mind on something they obviously are not willing to budge on, especially since this entire conversation is off-topic.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Clearly we need to remove the Dalish from the picture and then have the City Elves offer to throw all their support behind Gaspard in exchange for a semi-autonomous client state.

 

Unlike that hag Celene or that blind idealist Briala Gaspard is the kind of man with the sense of honor to keep his promises and the stubborness needed to FORCE the nobility to accept it.

 

The elves get their valley of the flowers, Orlais gets a strong emperor, and the Dalish are removed. Everyone wins!

[Steelcan]

I just pointed out one case of ignoring evidence in the game that elves have it worse than humans.  That is true in Darktown but people either didn't remember or chose to ignore Varric's assessment.  I'm not interested in trying to change anyone's mind on something they obviously are not willing to budge on, especially since this entire conversation is off-topic.

And I posted other in game evidence that suggests things aren't as one sided as you've said, and I am still awaiting a response to it.

[Lulupab]

People of Thedas are both racist and nationalists. If you didn't notice, the majority of humans in darktown were not from Kirkwall.

[Steelcan]

 

The elves get their valley of the flowers, Orlais gets a strong emperor, and the Dalish are removed. Everyone wins!

Subsequently this state can then be run as a proxy of Orlais, their own government and a way to sustain their traditions, in return for serving the crown

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Subsequently this state can then be run as a proxy of Orlais, their own government and a way to sustain their traditions, in return for serving the crown

 

Exactly!

[Ryzaki]

People of Thedas are both racist and nationalists. If you didn't notice, the majority of humans in darktown were not from Kirkwall.

 

I know it was mostly Fereldans.

 

Hawke might've ended up there if not for Gamlen D:

[Icy Magebane]

Eh... fine.  I guess I'll play along...

 

evidence is chevalier conduct against human populations as evidenced by Loghain's dialogue and the girl in the market, the behavior of Free Marchers towards Fereldens, Orlais's wars against other human nations, etc...

 

Now the ball is in your court

Part of the chevalier's initiation ritual is the murder of random city elves as they wander the alienage in a drunken stupor.  This isn't something that occurs in wartime against an enemy population, it is the standard practice of soldiers against their own citizens...  to me that suggests that the lives of elves mean nothing to the humans who rule Orlais.

 

In Kirkwall, there is an example of the Magister's insane son who kidnaps and murders elven children... even though Calder's actions aren't even a secret, the city guard ignores complaints against him.  Aveline's quest in Act 2 where she wants Hawke to help arrest the elves who killed a guard that raped their sister is another good example of how the law does not protect elves.  The crime was reported but nothing was done.  Only when they took the law into their own hands did the city guard become involved... it goes on and on.

 

Elves don't mean much to most humans... I see no evidence of this type of behavior against human commoners, as war crimes against foreign citizens are not exactly the same as terrorizing your own "citizens."

 

One final point... I've never heard of a "human purge," but alienages are frequently purged for one reason or another... coincidence?

 

edit:  I'm not trying to be rude by not wanting to discuss this, but the topic gets tiresome for me... it seems kind of pointless to keep repeating these things.  Sorry if I sound rude at all...

[Roamingmachine]

As I said, then it is ok to defend themselves, I did not defend Howe or Vaughn or anything of the sort, they were scum, and laws need to be implemented to protect the rights of city elves from scum like them.  Why that isn't satisfactory to you is a bit beyond my understanding, could you perhaps clarify?

 

 

You can make all the laws you want but they are of no use when there is no real will to enforce them. Considering the deep-rooted, irrational hatred humanity of thedas has for elves, the enforcement of such laws would have to be draconian. Making the ruler quite unpopular and soon to be ex ruler.

[Lulupab]

I still think the Dalish should gather and live in gigantic forests like the chasind do. That way the humans cannot even dare to enter because the forest will protect itself.

This makes me remember the lore from The Elder Scrolls when the Nords got obliterated when they tried to attack Valenwood where the wood elves live. Its more fitting for Elves to be one with nature rather than living in cities. But that's just my opinion.

[Steelcan]

Eh... fine.  I guess I'll play along...

 

Part of the chevalier's initiation ritual is the murder of random city elves as they wander the alienage in a drunken stupor.  This isn't something that occurs in wartime against an enemy population, it is the standard practice of soldiers against their own citizens...  to me that suggests that the lives of elves mean nothing to the humans who rule Orlais.

 

In Kirkwall, there is an example of the Magister's insane son who kidnaps and murders elven children... even though Calder's actions aren't even a secret, the city guard ignores complaints against him.  Aveline's quest in Act 2 where she wants Hawke to help arrest the elves who killed a guard that raped their sister is another good example of how the law does not protect elves.  The crime was reported but nothing was done.  Only when they took the law into their own hands did the city guard become involved... it goes on and on.

 

The lives of elves mean nothing to the humans... I see no evidence of this type of behavior against human commoners, as war crimes against foreign citizens are not exactly the same as terrorizing your own "citizens."

 

One final point... I've never heard of a "human purge," but alienages are frequently purged for one reason or another... coincidence?

And yet we see similar behavior to Fereldens after they have been conquered, ie Loghain's "I saw them beat a man to death for no reason" speech, or towards humans as is, viewing the local human population as a potential harem is not giving preferential treatment to them.

 

And that son can be held accountable for his actions, furthermore he was clearly insane.  So vigilante murder should be given a free pass?  Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if Kirkwall's upper class got wind of that?

 

So its better that the Orlesians commit atrocities against Navarrans and Fereldens than elves?  I'd argue that it isn't ok anywhere and legal institutions need to be created to protect the rights of elves and humans.

 

TME details the massacre of a village of humans for simply being beleived to have offered aid to an enemy (in a war they took no part in)

[Steelcan]

You can make all the laws you want but they are of no use when there is no real will to enforce them. Considering the deep-rooted, irrational hatred humanity of thedas has for elves, the enforcement of such laws would have to be draconian. Making the ruler quite unpopular and soon to be ex ruler.

 

Then what do you suggest?  The elves rise up and get cast down again and again until there are no elves left?

[Ryzaki]

I still think the Dalish should gather and live in gigantic forests like the chasind do. That way the humans cannot even dare to enter because the forest will protect itself.

This makes me remember the lore from The Elder Scrolls when the Nords got obliterated when they tried to attack Valenwood where the wood elves live. Its more fitting for Elves to be one with nature rather than living in cities. But that's just my opinion.

Meh I'm all for the dalish getting their own lands and buggering off and leaving humans alone. City elves are the only elves that interest me anyway. Them I'd like to see gain power in the human government enough not to be treated like complete garbage.

[Lulupab]

Meh I'm all for the dalish getting their own lands and buggering off and leaving humans alone. City elves are the only elves that interest me anyway. Them I'd like to see gain power in the human government enough not to be treated like complete garbage.

We don't know if the city elves would stay if there was such a homeland for the Dalish. Usually the city elves don't have problems with the Dalish, its the other way around. And although the Dalish can be rude to city elves they have always accepted any if they wished to join the Dalish. There are some instances that the Dalish rescued a city elf from humans once they encountered them on the road for example and after that the city elf usually stays with the Dalish. The Dalish are simply mad that their brethren has given up, they don't hate them.

[Steelcan]

We don't know if the city elves would stay if there was such a homeland for the Dalish. Usually the city elves don't have problems with the Dalish, its the other way around. And although the Dalish can be rude to city elves they have always accepted any if they wished to join the Dalish. There are some instances that the Dalish rescued a city elf from humans once they encountered them on the road for example and after that the city elf usually stays with the Dalish. The Dalish are simply mad that their brethren has given up, they don't hate them.

it varies from clan to clan I imagine, some will be more welcoming, others less so

[Roamingmachine]

Then what do you suggest?  The elves rise up and get cast down again and again until there are no elves left?

I see no alternative to war. The humans of Thedas will not change through dialogue, and any magnamity from a single ruler can be wiped away on a whim from that very same ruler (and wouldn't change the fact that they are still under a human boot). The elves cannot outright win the war, but they don't really have to. They just need to make victory too costly for the human realms to stomach. It might end up in the end of the elven species, but i'm a firm believer in 'live free or die'.

[Ryzaki]

We don't know if the city elves would stay if there was such a homeland for the Dalish. Usually the city elves don't have problems with the Dalish, its the other way around. And although the Dalish can be rude to city elves they have always accepted any if they wished to join the Dalish. There are some instances that the Dalish rescued a city elf from humans once they encountered them on the road for example and after that the city elf usually stays with the Dalish. The Dalish are simply mad that their brethren has given up, they don't hate them.

 

They probably would for the sheer reason that reaching said homeland would be unfeasible for many of them. We have 3 instances of a CE staying with the dalish and we only saw about 2 clans. We don't know any stories about a CE who met the dalish and went back for...whatever reason. As for giving up...I'd argue that but it's late and *shrug*

[Steelcan]

I see no alternative to war. The humans of Thedas will not change through dialogue, and any magnamity from a single ruler can be wiped away on a whim from that very same ruler (and wouldn't change the fact that they are still under a human boot). The elves cannot outright win the war, but they don't really have to. They just need to make victory too costly for the human realms to stomach. It might end up in the end of the elven species, but i'm a firm believer in 'live free or die'.

yes, wiping out yourselves rather than submit to a clearly more powerful force is noble and gallant and all that nonsense, children will go to bed hearing tales of the elvish rebellions, but they won't be elven children listening to them

[Lulupab]

They probably would for the sheer reason that reaching said homeland would be unfeasible for many of them. We have 3 instances of a CE staying with the dalish and we only saw about 2 clans. We don't know any stories about a CE who met the dalish and went back for...whatever reason. As for giving up...I'd argue that but it's late and *shrug*

It doesn't matter what we think, the Dalish think the city elves have given up.

And we'll have to see how it goes, I have high hopes for the Elves in DA:I. Especially the Dalish. Something like giving them a homeland in exchange for their support in Inquisition would be perfect.

[Steelcan]

It doesn't matter what we think, the Dalish think the city elves have given up.

And we'll have to see how it goes, I have high hopes for the Elves in DA:I. Especially the Dalish. Something like giving them a homeland in exchange for their support in Inquisition would be perfect.

we had that option in DA:O and it was retconned away, presumably because the writers didn't want it to exist

[Ryzaki]

It doesn't matter what we think, the Dalish think the city elves have given up.

And we'll have to see how it goes, I have high hopes for the Elves in DA:I. Especially the Dalish. Something like giving them a homeland in exchange for their support in Inquisition would be perfect.

 

 

True.

 

Sadly not I. Dalish are pretty much my if I had the choice to wipe them from my game state I would race. *shrug*

 

As for giving them a homeland in exchange for support a homeland where exactly? It'd have to not step on any human races I'd actually need toes since they could most likely provide me far superior support than the Dalish could.

[Roamingmachine]

yes, wiping out yourselves rather than submit to a clearly more powerful force is noble and gallant and all that nonsense, children will go to bed hearing tales of the elvish rebellions, but they won't be elven children listening to them

If you accept submission as an option, you WILL submit. There are worse fates than death and a lifetime of being treated as barely more than animal is one of them.