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we had that option in DA:O and it was retconned away, presumably because the writers didn't want it to exist
At that time they didn't. Notice that DA:I has different writers as well as writers from DAO. It doesn't always mean they will follow what a previous writer did. For example Awakening Anders was written by Gaider whereas DA2 Anders was written by Jennifer Hapler. Feel the difference?
yeah one was fun
Anyways, thats an individual character, if they wanted to examine the implications of an elvish homeland they had their chance, which leads me to believe that they have no plans of incorporating one into the setting
But of course I can't say for sure
True.
Sadly not I. Dalish are pretty much my if I had the choice to wipe them from my game state I would race. *shrug*
As for giving them a homeland in exchange for support a homeland where exactly? It'd have to not step on any human races I'd actually need toes since they could most likely provide me far superior support than the Dalish could.
If you accept submission as an option, you WILL submit. There are worse fates than death and a lifetime of being treated as barely more than animal is one of them.
I'm gonna differ to Tyrion lannister on this one, (spoiler'd for size)
And yet we see similar behavior to Fereldens after they have been conquered, ie Loghain's "I saw them beat a man to death for no reason" speech, or towards humans as is, viewing the local human population as a potential harem is not giving preferential treatment to them.
I'm going to admit that I am having trouble addressing this... the chevaliers are a blight on humanity and I'd prefer it if they were disbanded, or at the very least reformed. All I can say is that although they have unlimited power, this is not common for most military orders on Thedas. Most groups are not allowed to do whatever they want to other humans.
And that son can be held accountable for his actions, furthermore he was clearly insane. So vigilante murder should be given a free pass? Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if Kirkwall's upper class got wind of that?
Calder is only held accountable when the captain of the guard directly intervenes... Aveline is a hero, not your average city guard. The Kirkwall authorities had been covering for Calder for years, and would continue to do so unless Hawke chooses to intervene on behalf of the elves... as for the elves taking the law into their own hands, yes I support that. If a city guard can get away with rape, there's a flaw in the justice system and the only way to correct that is to take action. The nobles aren't interested in protecting elven women, so who cares what they think?
So its better that the Orlesians commit atrocities against Navarrans and Fereldens than elves? I'd argue that it isn't ok anywhere and legal institutions need to be created to protect the rights of elves and humans.
I'm not saying that... what I'm saying is that committing atrocities against people who live within your borders is a gross violation of a soldier's responsibilities. What they do on foreign soil is irrelevant, as they are not charged with protecting the citizens of other countries.
TME details the massacre of a village of humans for simply being beleived to have offered aid to an enemy (in a war they took no part in)
I'm sorry, but this seems to be an anomaly. Alienage purges are commonplace in Thedas, and can occur based on very little provocation. It's just not the same thing in my eyes.
Orlais is in civil war. If we decide to give them the Dales there are two people involved that can help us here. The humans living in the Dales, and the Dalish Elves. I'd say they are pretty balanced force. Because I doubt we can get the whole Orlais force to help us so we can only have access to certain and smaller armies.
Yeah I'm not going to ****** off Orlais unless I absolutely have to and giving the dalish some land is most likely not on the absolutely have to list.
Orlais is in civil war. If we decide to give them the Dales there are two people involved that can help us here. The humans living in the Dales, and the Dalish Elves. I'd say they are pretty balanced force. Because I doubt we can get the whole Orlais force to help us so we can only have access to certain and smaller armies.
the Dalish aren't exactly numerous and I wouldn't give my hopes up for the option existing, we have yet to get a choice where we can pick between three fully different outcomes. Celene and Gaspard are obviously choices, and I imagine the "third option" will be a marriage or something between the two to resolve the crisis, similar to how the geth/quarian issue was resolved in ME
we had that option in DA:O and it was retconned away, presumably because the writers didn't want it to exist
You hit the nail on the head right there. This is exactly so.
yes, wiping out yourselves rather than submit to a clearly more powerful force is noble and gallant and all that nonsense, children will go to bed hearing tales of the elvish rebellions, but they won't be elven children listening to them
What about guerrilla warfare? It's scarily effective against larger armies and would make great use of the mobility and elusiveness Dalish clans need to rely on. You don't have to be equally well-trained, well-equipped or have enough soldiers to win wars. Look at the Haitian Revolution, or the independence campaigns waged by Simón Bolívar. It's risky, but it's not an inherent death sentence if it's played right.
I'm going to admit that I am having trouble addressing this... the chevaliers are a blight on humanity and I'd prefer it if they were disbanded, or at the very least reformed. All I can say is that although they have unlimited power, this is not common for most military orders on Thedas. Most groups are not allowed to do whatever they want to other humans.
Calder is only held accountable when the captain of the guard directly intervenes... Aveline is a hero, not your average city guard. The Kirkwall authorities had been covering for Calder for years, and would continue to do so unless Hawke chooses to intervene on behalf of the elves... as for the elves taking the law into their own hands, yes I support that. If a city guard can get away with rape, there's a flaw in the justice system and the only way to correct that is to take action. The nobles aren't interested in protecting elven women, so who cares what they think?
I'm not saying that... what I'm saying is that committing atrocities against people who live within your borders is a gross violation of a soldier's responsibilities. What they do on foreign soil is irrelevant, as they are not charged with protecting the citizens of other countries.
I'm sorry, but this seems to be an anomaly. Alienage purges are commonplace in Thedas, and can occur based on very little provocation. It's just not the same thing in my eyes.
Exactly, they are a blight upon humanity and elves, so we can call this one equal.
Calder is also insane, unless you propose we hold him responsible for his actions when he is very clearly not in his right mind, there isn't much more we can to in this. Because what the human nobles think and feel is pretty important for the elves, unless they want to be on the recieveing end of another purge for blatantly flouting the law.
And I'd say that beating farmers to death for no reason is just as bad no matter where the farmer live or the soldier is from. Nor does it matter if he is elven or human.
it may be seen anomalous only because it is in a civil war, the Orlesians behaved similarly in Ferelden and presumably their other conquests
What about guerrilla warfare? It's scarily effective against larger armies and would make great use of the mobility and elusiveness Dalish clans need to rely on. You don't have to be equally well-trained, well-equipped or have enough soldiers to win wars. Look at the Haitian Revolution, or the independence campaigns waged by Simón Bolívar. It's risky, but it's not an inherent death sentence if it's played right.
they city elves don't have the equipment, hell they don't even have farming equipment in most cases, nor do they have a knowledge of the countryside due to their living in a very urban setting, and they as yet don't have a unifying voice and leader to get behind
they city elves don't have the equipment, hell they don't even have farming equipment in most cases, nor do they have a knowledge of the countryside due to their living in a very urban setting, and they as yet don't have a unifying voice and leader to get behind
Which will hopefully change once Briala shows up.
Calder is also insane, unless you propose we hold him responsible for his actions when he is very clearly not in his right mind, there isn't much more we can to in this. Because what the human nobles think and feel is pretty important for the elves, unless they want to be on the recieveing end of another purge for blatantly flouting the law.
Before I go through the rest of this post, let me make it clear that my issue is not with Calder, it's with the system that keeps him out of prison. The guards and nobles let him operate for years without giving him a life sentence... the guy is a monster, but he keeps getting off because he only attacks elves. While his father might still have protect him if he had targeted human children, we have no way of knowing this... (edit: in that case, perhaps one or more of the guards would take an interest in seeing justice done... we don't know)
As for the second point... eh... yeah, the elves probably should have been stealthier, but they were still right to kill that guard. The fact that the whole alienage can suffer because of the actions of two residents shows how unfair the system is.
And I'd say that beating farmers to death for no reason is just as bad no matter where the farmer live or the soldier is from. Nor does it matter if he is elven or human.
it may be seen anomalous only because it is in a civil war, the Orlesians behaved similarly in Ferelden and presumably their other conquests
TBH I'm not really trying to debate the morality of these actions, I'm primarily trying to address their legality. I think that all of this kind of behavior should be outlawed, but again, the chevaliers have special privileges. The problem is that such attacks occur on elves outside of wartime by their own "protectors." This is a big difference. This behavior is legal against elves but not human commoners in most countries.
Orlais is in civil war. If we decide to give them the Dales there are two people involved that can help us here. The humans living in the Dales, and the Dalish Elves. I'd say they are pretty balanced force. Because I doubt we can get the whole Orlais force to help us so we can only have access to certain and smaller armies.
Celene/Gaspard disapprove -100 OH NOES!! I needs them for my Wars.
If you accept submission as an option, you WILL submit. There are worse fates than death and a lifetime of being treated as barely more than animal is one of them.
This reminds me of a quote from ASOIAF where Asha or Theon says how their father was wise enough to bend the knee instead of being utterly crushed so that they could fight on at the next oppotunity. Since defeat at the hands of the worlds most powerful nation is kind of inevitable, how about they bend the knee now and work on their rights and freedoms in a way that would better work out for them.
Which will hopefully change once Briala shows up.
And it may not, we need to wait and see, but as I said I am skeptical of three different solutions to the crisis in Orlais
they city elves don't have the equipment, hell they don't even have farming equipment in most cases, nor do they have a knowledge of the countryside due to their living in a very urban setting, and they as yet don't have a unifying voice and leader to get behind
Sorry, I was responding specifically about the Dalish because I thought we were addressing them in particular? I must have read it incorrectly. But the Dalish are certainly militarized and have the advantage of terrain knowledge, which is why I mentioned it. I wouldn't have brought it up if I thought we were addressing the city elves, although I suppose if they had some sort of leader (like Briala may be inclined to do) to get behind they could be taught how to fight in such a manner.
Before I go through the rest of this post, let me make it clear that my issue is not with Calder, it's with the system that keeps him out of prison. The guards and nobles let him operate for years without giving him a life sentence... the guy is a monster, but he keeps getting off because he only attacks elves. While his father might still have protect him if he had targeted human children, we have no way of knowing this... (edit: in that case, perhaps one or more of the guards would take an interest in seeing justice done... we don't know)
As for the second point... eh... yeah, the elves probably should have been stealthier, but they were still right to kill that guard. The fact that the whole alienage can suffer because of the actions of two residents shows how unfair the system is.
And I am not going to defend the human nobles or the attacks on the alienage, they are repulsive.
I just don't think that a violent uprising is the way to go about bringing change since they are so outclassed by human military forces
Sorry, I was responding specifically about the Dalish because I thought we were addressing them in particular? I must have read it incorrectly. But the Dalish are certainly militarized and have the advantage of terrain knowledge, which is why I mentioned it. I wouldn't have brought it up if I thought we were addressing the city elves, although I suppose if they had some sort of leader (like Briala may be inclined to do) to get behind they could be taught how to fight in such a manner.
The Dalsih don't have the coordination between clans, the numbers, significant military experience etc...
A parallel can perhaps be drawn to the Boer War. The Boers fought mounted, hit and run style, against the British and it took a heavy toll. Then the British decided that rounding up the entire Boer civilian population could be used to end the hostilities. Given the predominant attitudes towards elves as sub-human they would likely have even less issue with doing something similar.
And I am not going to defend the human nobles or the attacks on the alienage, they are repulsive.
I just don't think that a violent uprising is the way to go about bringing change since they are so outclassed by human military forces
And I am not going to defend the human nobles or the attacks on the alienage, they are repulsive.
I just don't think that a violent uprising is the way to go about bringing change since they are so outclassed by human military forces
I don't see violence as the only way to resolve this issue, but I also do not see the wisdom in attempting to work with humans or to wait for them to change their policies. There is also the possibility of sending out small scouting parties to search the frontier lands for unclaimed territory... so long as the elves can get away from the humans for a little while, they have a chance at not only surviving, but improving their lot. All that I am saying is that the alternative should be something the elves come up with, and not something dependent on the mercy of humans. That's too much of a gamble.
Celene/Gaspard disapprove -100 OH NOES!! I needs them for my Wars.
This reminds me of a quote from ASOIAF where Asha or Theon says how their father was wise enough to bend the knee instead of being utterly crushed so that they could fight on at the next oppotunity. Since defeat at the hands of the worlds most powerful nation is kind of inevitable, how about they bend the knee now and work on their rights and freedoms in a way that would better work out for them.
This was mainly possible because the Targaryens were interested in building an empire. They crushed resistance and absorbed those who would submit in to their power structure. Would any of the seven kingdoms have submitted if the Targaryens would have gone about crushing the very people they conquered and relegating them in to non-people, demi-slave status? For the elves, bending the knee just promises more of the same with no hope of change.
Sorry to hurt your delicate little feelings.
If you don't want to keep ignoring my posts to keep making the same arguments I already refuted, I understand.
If you are going to simply resort to petty insults and attacks we have nothing more to say to each other,
I have not done anything to deserve this level of hostility so I feel like reporting you is the best course of action now since you are either out for blood or a troll
This was mainly possible because the Targaryens were interested in building an empire. They crushed resistance and absorbed those who would submit in to their power structure. Would any of the seven kingdoms have submitted if the Targaryens would have gone about crushing the very people they conquered and relegating them in to non-people, demi-slave status? For the elves, bending the knee just promises more of the same with no hope of change.
and what happened to the Targaryens in the end?
Guest_Faerunner_*
If you are going to simply resort to petty insults and attacks we have nothing more to say to each other,
I have not done anything to deserve this level of hostility so I feel like reporting you is the best course of action now since you are either out for blood or a troll
I knew you'd take the first opportunity to not to read or respond to my arguments.
Doesn't matter, I'm getting tired of repeating myself when you keep ignoring my comments and keep repeating your same racist and paternalistic argument that I just addressed in the previous post. Circular arguments take a lot out of me.
The Dalsih don't have the coordination between clans, the numbers, significant military experience etc...
A parallel can perhaps be drawn to the Boer War. The Boers fought mounted, hit and run style, against the British and it took a heavy toll. Then the British decided that rounding up the entire Boer civilian population could be used to end the hostilities. Given the predominant attitudes towards elves as sub-human they would likely have even less issue with doing something similar.
There was an Arlathvhen recently, however. If we're speculating here it could be possible they banded together if there is to be some war for territory. We do know that they have a position of warmaster, which would suggest some level of military competence. You have to keep on your toes if you're constantly concerned about human raiders or angry mobs driving you off.
Eh, I wouldn't have used the Boer War myself. The First was considered a success, after all! Until there was the Second. And using a single war as an example doesn't really address the fact that there have been successes - as I pointed out with the Haitian Revolution and the Independence Wars of South America. I'm just saying that it could really go either way if we're talking guerrilla warfare. I don't know if there are significant enough differences in equipment to make it matter the way it would in more modern wars, aside from steel plate, considering the Dalish have their equivalent in Ironbark. Plus you have to factor in that the clans have mages. This is all assuming a war would break out, of course! Either way thanks for entertaining that line of thought. It's certainly interesting to consider.
EDIT: Because I can't spell Elvish words, apparently.
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