695 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I knew you'd take the first opportunity to not to read or respond to my arguments.
 
Doesn't matter, I'm getting tired of repeating myself when you keep ignoring my comments and keep repeating your same argument I just addressed in the last post. Circular arguments take a lot out of me.

. No I am not responding to your argument because I am not going to dignify your attacks with a proper response. You have been hostile and combative the entire time and I will no longer waste words on you since you have made it clear that you have some grudge against me.

[Steelcan]

@A Clever Name, its not necessarily down to equipment, but experience and skill at arms. The Dalish may have a competent fighting force and ability to muster an army together, but I just can't see them competing, much less defeating, the chevaliers and such, especially since the losses taken by humans are much more easily replaced than by the Dalish

[Augustei]

This was mainly possible because the Targaryens were interested in building an empire. They crushed resistance and absorbed those who would submit in to their power structure. Would any of the seven kingdoms have submitted if the Targaryens would have gone about crushing the very people they conquered and relegating them in to non-people, demi-slave status?  For the elves, bending the knee just promises more of the same with no hope of change.

I was referring to their surrender to Robert, Though the Iron Islanders situation is hardly comparable to The elves I was really just referring to the whole Not continuing to fight unwinnable battles thing. I'm still annoyed that A genuinely considered counter-point to Celene's whole giving lands to the elves is that she would only do it "When it was safe", Its still a wiser course of action Imo since the alternative is potential annihilation at what is considered the worlds most powerful nation.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I was referring to their surrender to Robert, Though the Iron Islanders situation is hardly comparable to The elves I was really just referring to the whole Not continuing to fight unwinnable battles thing. I'm still annoyed that A genuinely considered counter-point to Celene's whole giving lands to the elves is that she would only do it "When it was safe", Its still a wiser course of action Imo since the alternative is potential annihilation at what is considered the worlds most powerful nation.

 

Which is why I will firmly stand by the Dailish when they try to retake the Dales! After Orlais LOLstomps them we can have a serious discussion about improving the CIty Elves lot in life.

[Storm King]

@A Clever Name, its not necessarily down to equipment, but experience and skill at arms. The Dalish may have a competent fighting force and ability to muster an army together, but I just can't see them competing, much less defeating, the chevaliers and such, especially since the losses taken by humans are much more easily replaced than by the Dalish

I'm assuming you're talking about a post-civil war situation because if not, the chevaliers and the Orlesian forces don't have the necessary coherency to actually fight anyone considering the state of the country. But even in a post civil war scenario, you've got to consider that heavy cavalry (which is what I imagine chevaliers typically are) are not well suited to fighting a Dalish guerrilla force no matter how many more of them there might be. I think a better example (or examples) would be guerrilla warfare employed by ancient tribes like the Scythians, the Huns, the Goths etc. to defeat the Romans, Persians and Macedonians; the Macedonians immediately seem like a suitable example because of their renowned use of heavy cavalry which in guerrilla situations are not capable of effectively responding. Although in a straight up fight I agree with you entirely, the Dalish wouldn't fare well at all but you've also got to look at in-universe examples; only 30 years ago, the Fereldans successfully carried out a guerrilla war on the Orlesian occupiers. It can swing both ways but I think a dedicated and well coordinated Dalish guerrilla effort could be successful.

[Augustei]

I knew you'd take the first opportunity to not to read or respond to my arguments.

Well you did kinda format them to have a white background and be barely readable, it sort of discourages wanting to read it when it screams at your eyes like that.

[Dean_the_Young]

And then cross your fingers and hope today isn't the day humans come in and try to rape and/or murder you.

 

That applies for everyone, human and elf, in every circumstance.

 

You deal with that yourself in your own country and neighborhood as well.

[Samahl]

That applies for everyone, human and elf, in every circumstance.

 

You deal with that yourself in your own country and neighborhood as well.

 

And yet some groups have higher chances of dealing with it than others.

[Dean_the_Young]

I still think the Dalish should gather and live in gigantic forests like the chasind do. That way the humans cannot even dare to enter because the forest will protect itself.

This makes me remember the lore from The Elder Scrolls when the Nords got obliterated when they tried to attack Valenwood where the wood elves live. Its more fitting for Elves to be one with nature rather than living in cities. But that's just my opinion.

 

Why would the local non-elfs even need to dare to enter a giant, murderous tenderbox they could set ablaze from the outside?
 

[Storm King]

Why would the local non-elfs even need to dare to enter a giant, murderous tenderbox they could set ablaze from the outside?
 

Depends on the forest. The Korcari wilds (for example) seem a bit wet to be set aflame.

[Dean_the_Young]

I see no alternative to war. The humans of Thedas will not change through dialogue, and any magnamity from a single ruler can be wiped away on a whim from that very same ruler (and wouldn't change the fact that they are still under a human boot). The elves cannot outright win the war, but they don't really have to. They just need to make victory too costly for the human realms to stomach. It might end up in the end of the elven species, but i'm a firm believer in 'live free or die'.

 

That's only a noble belief when applied to yourself. When pushed on others who don't, it is merely insanity.
 

[Lulupab]

Why would the local non-elfs even need to dare to enter a giant, murderous tenderbox they could set ablaze from the outside?

Why no one thought of that! Lets just burn the korcari wilds! It would have killed all the darkspawn along with annoying chasind the people loathe. Apart from the severe consequences of burning a forest, many such forests are not normal woods, they will protect themselves.

[Mistic]

I'm assuming you're talking about a post-civil war situation because if not, the chevaliers and the Orlesian forces don't have the necessary coherency to actually fight anyone considering the state of the country. But even in a post civil war scenario, you've got to consider that heavy cavalry (which is what I imagine chevaliers typically are) are not well suited to fighting a Dalish guerrilla force no matter how many more of them there might be. I think a better example (or examples) would be guerrilla warfare employed by ancient tribes like the Scythians, the Huns, the Goths etc. to defeat the Romans, Persians and Macedonians; the Macedonians immediately seem like a suitable example because of their renowned use of heavy cavalry which in guerrilla situations are not capable of effectively responding. Although in a straight up fight I agree with you entirely, the Dalish wouldn't fare well at all but you've also got to look at in-universe examples; only 30 years ago, the Fereldans successfully carried out a guerrilla war on the Orlesian occupiers. It can swing both ways but I think a dedicated and well coordinated Dalish guerrilla effort could be successful.

 

Guerrilla warfare has only been useful when the guerrilla army in question is fighting in their homeland. Home advantage is a plus in every war scenario. It means support of the local population, easier access to resources and knowledge of the battlefield. The Dalish don't have that, because they don't have a homeland that can help them (in fact, they would be fighting for a homeland), while the Fereldans had.

 

The City Elves would have it easier in that regard, actually.

 

Also, even if the Scythians, the Huns, the Goths and other barbarian tribes did use irregular military tactics, it could only be called guerrilla tactics when they were pillaging the frontiers, which were annoying but not "empire-toppling". What toppled those empires were campaigns of invasion with the use of hordes, large armies that could reach tens of thousands (like Attila's army in Chalons), accompanied by a large number of civilians from their tribes, supported by pillaging and sacking, and augmented by attacking and absorbing other barbarian tribes. Add some war advances, like armoured heavy cavalry copied from the Sarmatians, and they were fearsome enemies even in an open field, exactly the opposite of guerrilla armies. The Dalish don't have that either.

 

And yet some groups have higher chances of dealing with it than others.

 

True, but sometimes trust is needed to break the cycle. Earning good will is historically as useful as having the upper hand.

[Dean_the_Young]

And yet some groups have higher chances of dealing with it than others.

 

Which is a matter of degree, not nature. At the end of the day, your sense of security is still based on the faith that someone else, authorities or otherwise, won't come by and rape or kill or steal from you because Reasons. They always retain the ability, and the potential is always there.

 

It happens in the West, it happens in the Middle East, it happens in Asia. It happens in every city of the world, and no race, gender, or creed is above it. Even in incredibly racist societies, the oppressed racial minority never has a monopoly on being exploited and impotent.

[Dean_the_Young]

Depends on the forest. The Korcari wilds (for example) seem a bit wet to be set aflame.

 

A deliberate arsonist can set any forest aflame, even if natural wildfires are rare.

[Samahl]

Which is a matter of degree, not nature.

 

I never argued it as anything else.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why no one thought of that! Lets just burn the korcari wilds! It would have killed all the darkspawn along with annoying chasind the people loathe. Apart from the severe consequences of burning a forest, many such forests are not normal woods, they will protect themselves.

 

If the forests went from merely being dangerous to actively murderous, then the cost-benefit would naturally swing.

 

We could talk about the differences between the Darkspawn Blight and a genocidal Dalish enclave that deliberatly wipes out any humans within the area, the relative areas and resources needed, or viability of the Dalish hiding out in the not-normal woods, but that would be missing the point.

[Lulupab]

If the forests went from merely being dangerous to actively murderous, then the cost-benefit would naturally swing.
 
We could talk about the differences between the Darkspawn Blight and a genocidal Dalish enclave that deliberatly wipes out any humans within the area, the relative areas and resources needed, or viability of the Dalish hiding out in the not-normal woods, but that would be missing the point.

We don't know how it would work out. But comparing it to similar lores and looking at things with theories, Elves make a deal with a spirits residing in the forest. A mutual pact that they will protect each other. The animals become friendly with the Dalish and the forest welcomes them. Flemeth has a similar "pact" with korcari wilds.

[Dean_the_Young]

I never argued it as anything else.

 

Then you made a rather odd response to TK514's post of.

 

 

Be loyal citizens instead of murderous rebels and rioters, and the chances of the local monarch being forced to treat you like a rebellion and put your enclave to the torch drop considerably.

 

 

Regardless of whether you are a human or an elf, his point would be true. Yet you raised

 

Samahl

And then cross your fingers and hope today isn't the day humans come in and try to rape and/or murder you.

 

 

 

As if it were an objection, which you now agree would apply, again, regardless of whether you were human or elf.

 

 

The reply would only make sense as a counter argument if it implied TK's argument didn't apply to elves by some argument that this counter was unique to elves. But now you disclaim your rebutal was unique to elves, which makes its value as a rebutal... well, meaningless.

 

 

Claim: Be a loyal citizen and your chances of state-directed badness coming down on you goes down.

Reaction: Not challenged.

 

Claim: Have to hope that people won't rape or kill you regardless of what you did.

Reaction: Agreement that this applies to everyone, regardless of race.

 

 

This was definitely one of the more awkwardly raised agreements I've ever seen.

[Dean_the_Young]

We don't know how it would work out. But comparing it to similar lores and looking at things with theories, Elves make a deal with a spirits residing in the forest. A mutual pact that they will protect each other. The animals become friendly with the Dalish and the forest welcomes them. Flemeth has a similar "pact" with korcari wilds.

 

By 'similar lores' are we talking Dragon Age, or are we talking about other franchises in which the elves have a magical and unique relationship with the spirits of the forest? At least in the Dragon Age context, spirits are decidedly impartial on race relations, and are as often homicidal towards elves as anyone else.

 

I really don't remember Flemeth having any sort of 'pact' with the Korcari Wilds beyond 'I've got magic, I live here, and you better respect that or end up dead (if you don't end up dead anyway).'

[TK514]

I promise I have nothing against you personally.

 

People who seriously argue for the paternalistic subjugation of an entire race of people simply don't bring out the best in me.

 

Then perhaps you should remind yourself that we are a bunch of gamers wasting time on a video game forum talking about fiction.  That our chosen positions here may have little to no reflection in our opinions on real world matters.  And that no matter what we say here, or what we do in game, no actual elves will ever be harmed, because they don't exist.

[Samahl]

This was definitely one of the more awkwardly raised agreements I've ever seen.

 

Maybe another one of my posts will clear this up for you:

 

They wouldn't be rebelling in the first place if they felt like they had another choice.

 

Conditions are worse for elves, generally, than humans. They are more likely to get raped and murdered, generally, than humans, or, at the very least, are more likely to see (or not see, as the case may be) their murderers/rapists walk away free. Elves need to worry about these things happening to them in order to be safe, while humans (with some exceptions, like mages, or even refugees/foreigners) generally get to stay ignorant. That's why it doesn't just work for them to hope.

[Lulupab]

By 'similar lores' are we talking Dragon Age, or are we talking about other franchises in which the elves have a magical and unique relationship with the spirits of the forest? At least in the Dragon Age context, spirits are decidedly impartial on race relations, and are as often homicidal towards elves as anyone else.
 
I really don't remember Flemeth having any sort of 'pact' with the Korcari Wilds beyond 'I've got magic, I live here, and you better respect that or end up dead (if you don't end up dead anyway).'

I used quotation for a reason. Morrigan and as well as codex if I remember correctly, mention that Flemeth is part of the forest as much as its part of her. She is not a witch, she is the witch of the wilds. All of that forest is her home, not just the hut.