695 réponses à ce sujet

[Roamingmachine]

That's only a noble belief when applied to yourself. When pushed on others who don't, it is merely insanity.

So nothing to say about the argument itself,then? Because the only point you latched on to was my personal reason for accepting catastrophic casualties, not the argument itself witch was about why there is no peaceful solution to be had with the elves and humans

[Dean_the_Young]

I used quotation for a reason. Morrigan and as well as codex if I remember correctly, mention that Flemeth is part of the forest as much as its part of her. She is not a witch, she is the witch of the wilds. All of that forest is her home, not just the hut.

There's absolutely nothing about a pact in any of that.

 

 

Maybe another one of my posts will clear this up for you:

 

 

I saw it. It doesn't make your response any more sensible.

 

 

Conditions are worse for elves, generally, than humans. They are more likely to get raped and murdered, generally, than humans, or, at the very least, are more likely to see (or not see, as the case may be) their murderers/rapists walk away free. Elves need to worry about these things happening to them in order to be safe, while humans (with some exceptions, like mages, or even refugees/foreigners) generally get to stay ignorant. That's why it doesn't just work for them to hope.

 

 

 

This only works as a frame of reference if you focus on groups of humans who are less likely to get raped and murdered and ignore groups of humans who are just as likely if not more to be raped and murdered, as well as the subgroups involved with the elves as well. Even amongst city elves, the demographics of who is more likely to be a victim will change depending on employers, location, and jobs.

 

Besides which, the next functioning and effective system of law we see in Thedas will be the first. There is no established rule of law and widespread justice system that applies to humans and refuses to be applied to elves. Most murderers/rapists walk away free because there are precious few guards (not even police), and even fewer dedicated to investigations and chasing down people who don't stick around. Crime isn't uncommon in human societies- it's taken for granted. And most of it is going to be human on human.

 

To say that humans generally get to stay ignorant is to ignore the reality of what law enforcement even is in Thedas: there's very little, what little there is is highly arbitrary and corrupt, and it's at the privilege and direction of non-representative elites who are far from common in showing empathy and identifying with their racially similar underclass.

[Dean_the_Young]

So nothing to say about the argument itself,then? Because the only point you latched on to was my personal reason for accepting catastrophic casualties, not the argument itself witch was about why there is no peaceful solution to be had with the elves and humans

 

No, I did say something about the argument: others would disagree. In fact, the great vast majority of Thedasian history is in disagreement: peaceful is not the same as equal or righteous, but peace has been the norm compared to race war between humans and elves for most of Thedasian history.

[Icy Magebane]

That applies for everyone, human and elf, in every circumstance.

 

You deal with that yourself in your own country and neighborhood as well.

lol... yeah, okay.  Comparing street crime to the lawful execution and torture of elves... give me a break.  This can't seriously be your argument.  The fact is that elves are at the very bottom of the social ladder in Thedas, whether people wish to admit that or not.  Time and again, evidence has been presented that supports this claim, and it is repeatedly ignored in favor of rare and extreme examples of human vs. human crime... these crimes are outliers, not a fact of life for human commoners.  More importantly, they are crimes.  Harming elves is not a crime in most areas of Thedas.  There is simply no reason to hold onto an argument like this when it is clearly based on a false comparison.

[Lulupab]

There's absolutely nothing about a pact in any of that.

Its as mutual as any pact. She hides in the forest and protects it in return.

[Samahl]

I really don't have the energy to argue this right now, but I might come back later.

[Roamingmachine]

No, I did say something about the argument: others would disagree. In fact, the great vast majority of Thedasian history is in disagreement: peaceful is not the same as equal or righteous, but peace has been the norm compared to race war between humans and elves for most of Thedasian history.

People generally don't want war. That does not change the fact that, due to the reasons I gave, it's the only viable way to any kind of resolution. All peaceful avenues have been blocked due to human unwillingness to change at all levels of society and lead only to the continuation of the current conflict.

[Dean_the_Young]

Its as mutual as any pact. She hides in the forest and protects it in return.

 

...you just described basic home ownership.

 

A pact requires two parties capable of agreement. Flemeth lives where she wants because she chooses to and because no one else is able to evict her: she does not require permission to live in the wilds.

[Dean_the_Young]

People generally don't want war. That does not change the fact that, due to the reasons I gave, it's the only viable way to any kind of resolution. All peaceful avenues have been blocked due to human unwillingness to change at all levels of society and lead only to the continuation of the current conflict.

 

The 'facts' you gave were opinions. Opinions are not reality, no matter how sincerely they are held.

 

Revolt, for better and for worse, is a choice. Just as we are going to see elves who have chosen to revolt, we are also going to see elves who choose not to revolt, and the existence of those who do not are proof that peaceful avenues are not impossible. Submission in the face of institutional injustice is not unacceptable (it is, in fact, the norm), even if it is not accepted by those who would prefer to revolt.

 

Peaceful avenues have not been irrevocably blocked- they just stopped being acceptable or quick enough for some. The option exists, even if you don't wish to follow it.

[Roamingmachine]

The 'facts' you gave were opinions. Opinions are not reality, no matter how sincerely they are held.

 

Revolt, for better and for worse, is a choice. Just as we are going to see elves who have chosen to revolt, we are also going to see elves who choose not to revolt, and the existence of those who do not are proof that peaceful avenues are not impossible. Submission in the face of institutional injustice is not unacceptable (it is, in fact, the norm), even if it is not accepted by those who would prefer to revolt.

 

Peaceful avenues have not been irrevocably blocked- they just stopped being acceptable or quick enough for some. The option exists, even if you don't wish to follow it.

But opinions are easily challenged especially when they are accompanied by the reasoning behind them, as mine did. Yet so far i've seen you dragging the opinions of the elves of thedas in to it even though my argument was an analysis of the situation and a statement based on it how to reach a resolution of the conflict (not a fact, i give you that.My bad).Nowhere did i say that the elves would like it or even consider it, but that it was the only way to resolve the conflict. So then...do you have anything to actually challenge my original argument? And remember: Status quo is the very conflict my proposed solution is intended for. Doing nothing, letting things go as they are is not a solution, is simply inaction.

[Dean_the_Young]

lol... yeah, okay.  Comparing street crime to the lawful execution and torture of elves... give me a break.  This can't seriously be your argument. 

It isn't- not least because I wasn't comparing street crime to the lawful execution and torture of elves.

 

Strawman, they name is Icy Magebane.

 

 

 

The fact is that elves are at the very bottom of the social ladder in Thedas, whether people wish to admit that or not.  Time and again, evidence has been presented that supports this claim, and it is repeatedly ignored in favor of rare and extreme examples of human vs. human crime... these crimes are outliers, not a fact of life for human commoners.  More importantly, they are crimes.  Harming elves is not a crime in most areas of Thedas.  There is simply no reason to hold onto an argument like this when it is clearly based on a false comparison.

 

 

 

Correction: poor non-mage elves are at the very bottom of the social ladder on the surface of Thedas. Rich(er) elves are above that, and can be above humans. An elven servant in a good lord's castle (such as the Couselands) has it better than, say, a human refugee in Darktown. Rich elves (of which there are not many, but they are not prohibited from existing) have the advantage and influence of all moneyed classes.

 

Elf is not a monolithic social status. Depending on where you are, there can be other classes higher or lower, both elven and human. In Tevinter, an elf mage is higher than a human slave. In Orlais, an elf with a noble patron of great standing in The Game is higher than a human peasant who isn't. In the Circles, elf and human are equally considered 'mage.' In the Wardens, race and creed and basic morality are regarded as irrelevant. In the Dwarven Kingdoms, elves are far above the casteless.

 

Human on human crime is not an outlier or extreme. It will, by sheer population weight and social segregation, be the norm. Most targets of crime by humans will be humans. When a Human lord abuses or exploits a human subject, there is about as much consequence. The evils of the world are not reserved solely for the alienage elves.

 

 

Elves as a collective have a **** sandwich, but they can only claim exceptional hardership in regards to racism- not oppression, exploitation, impotency, injustice, and disenfranchisement.

[Dean_the_Young]

But opinions are easily challenged especially when they are accompanied by the reasoning behind them, as mine did. Yet so far i've seen you dragging the opinions of the elves of thedas in to it even though my argument was an analysis of the situation and a statement based on it how to reach a resolution of the conflict (not a fact, i give you that.My bad).Nowhere did i say that the elves would like it or even consider it, but that it was the only way to resolve the conflict. So then...do you have anything to actually challenge my original argument? And remember: Status quo is the very conflict my proposed solution is intended for. Doing nothing, letting things go as they are is not a solution, is simply inaction.

 

 

Opinions being challenged and changing is precisely why they are irrelevant to whether or not peaceful alternative options exist. You (and others) have argued that elves (specifically the subset who revolt) believe they have no other choice. Their belief is irrelevant- inaction is an option, and it can very well be the superior option in regards to the health, welfare, and likely resulting freedoms of the elves.

 

The status quo is bad. If violent revolt is more likely to make it be worse, than peaceful inaction is superior.

 

 

Of course, 'inaction' is a false delimma. The alternative to 'race war' isn't 'do nothing.' The elves better course of action is to use the opportunity to self-organize and gain the favor and trust of the (winning) authorities that they can leverage for better options in the future.

[Mistic]

Of course, 'inaction' is a false delimma. The alternative to 'race war' isn't 'do nothing.' The elves better course of action is to use the opportunity to self-organize and gain the favor and trust of the (winning) authorities that they can leverage for better options in the future.

 

Makes you wonder if that was Briala intended at the end of TME. Many have interpreted her actions as "she wants to prolongue the war, she's evil!" or "she wants to anger both factions, she's stupid!". However, what if her goal is to ensure that both candidates are desperate enough so that at least one of them tries to broker a deal with the elves, in the elves' own terms, in exchange of help?

 

Of course, a negotiation like that wouldn't end in complete independence, but Master Warder Z's "Valley of the flowers" idea might be likely. And it would come from the elves' position that they earned themselves, not a gift given by the Empress just because she felt generous one day.

[Roamingmachine]

Opinions being challenged and changing is precisely why they are irrelevant to whether or not peaceful alternative options exist. You (and others) have argued that elves (specifically the subset who revolt) believe they have no other choice. Their belief is irrelevant- inaction is an option, and it can very well be the superior option in regards to the health, welfare, and likely resulting freedoms of the elves.
 
The status quo is bad. If violent revolt is more likely to make it be worse, than peaceful inaction is superior.
 
 
Of course, 'inaction' is a false delimma. The alternative to 'race war' isn't 'do nothing.' The elves better course of action is to use the opportunity to self-organize and gain the favor and trust of the (winning) authorities that they can leverage for better options in the future.

I have never stated that the elves believe that they need to revolt. I stated that I see it as the only option they have. And so far, I am the only one to have made that claim. And it was you who first brought up elven opinion in to this argument, followed by me telling you that their opinions are irrelevant in this matter. And what you propose, gaining trust and favour of the human authorities is something I addressed in my original argument. Unless you have something to refute my observations on the attitudes of thedas humans on elves and the fickleness of rulers, your solution is impossible and my argument on war stands.

[Mistic]

I have never stated that the elves believe that they need to revolt. I stated that I see it as the only option they have. And so far, I am the only one to have made that claim. And it was you who first brought up elven opinion in to this argument, followed by me telling you that their opinions are irrelevant in this matter. And what you propose, gaining trust and favour of the human authorities is something I addressed in my original argument. Unless you have something to refute my observations on the attitudes of thedas humans on elves and the fickleness of rulers, your solution is impossible and my argument on war stands.

 

But your original argument was based on (quoting here) 'live free or die'. Of course, under that belief, you are right and there's no other option, even if it means the complete extinction of the elven race. Of course, if you don't believe in that, there are many, many more options.

 

And humans can change through dialogue, another point of your original argument. The Grey Wardens existence is proof of that. The original Wardens were soldiers of the old Tevinter Imperium, probably the worst place in Thedas history for elves, yet the elven slaves brokered a deal with them: they would teach them old elven magics to find a way to fight the darkspawn in exchange of being part of the order with equal rights. And you know what? The Grey Wardens were true to their word and have been so for more than a thousand years.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

 

 

Of course, a negotiation like that wouldn't end in complete independence, but Master Warder Z's "Valley of the flowers" idea might be likely. And it would come from the elves' position that they earned themselves, not a gift given by the Empress just because she felt generous one day.

 

Emperor, I don't trust Celene to keep her end of the deal under any kind of pressure.

[ctd757]

The elves deserve and need a homeland badly. I would allow freedom of religion but all my decisions will be leaning towards the creators. I would make it a council in charge with representatives of Dalish and City Elf backgrounds. We would absolutely have an army and navy and many arcane warriors. We would allow minimal trade at first with other nations and see what goes on from there.

Since I assume the keep will include the Dalish Origin choice of a homeland boon I'm hoping it will be I the Ferelden area. They seem less likely to hate the elves.

[Mistic]

Emperor, I don't trust Celene to keep her end of the deal under any kind of pressure.

 

That's another issue, yes. Imagine the surprise (or not) in the epilogue if people supported Celene thinking she would honour the deal of an elven vassal state, only to have it crushed because of fear of rebellion, while those who supported Gaspard found out that he was true to his word despite his initial misgivings.

[Roamingmachine]

But your original argument was based on (quoting here) 'live free or die'. Of course, under that belief, you are right and there's no other option, even if it means the complete extinction of the elven race. Of course, if you don't believe in that, there are many, many more options.
 
And humans can change through dialogue, another point of your original argument. The Grey Wardens existence is proof of that. The original Wardens were soldiers of the old Tevinter Imperium, probably the worst place in Thedas history for elves, yet the elven slaves brokered a deal with them: they would teach them old elven magics to find a way to fight the darkspawn in exchange of being part of the order with equal rights. And you know what? The Grey Wardens were true to their word and have been so for more than a thousand years.

'Live free or die' is why I would accept the extinction of the elven species in a war against their oppressors. My actual arguments why all other solutions than war are blocked are clearly stated.
Grey Wardens have had elves fighting in their ranks from the go, yet it has had absolutely no impact on their standing with the general populace. Pacts made in desperate times that involved a trade is hardly indicative of humanity changing a bit, merely demonstrating desperate individuals grasping at any straw to save themselves.

[Mistic]

'Live free or die' is why I would accept the extinction of the elven species in a war against their oppressors. My actual arguments why all other solutions than war are blocked are clearly stated.

 

Not unless we do accept that humanity can't change. I, for example, doubt that, so I can see other solutions. After all, with the exception of Tevinter, now the vast majority of Thedas don't see the elves as slaves. It's not much, true, but it's a change.

 

Grey Wardens have had elves fighting in their ranks from the go, yet it has had absolutely no impact on their standing with the general populace. Pacts made in desperate times that involved a trade is hardly indicative of humanity changing a bit, merely demonstrating desperate individuals grasping at any straw to save themselves.

 

Rejoice then, because DA:I provides a desperate time where desperate individuals may be grasping at any straw to save themselves. No better time to make another pact to push things in the right direction. However, the goal post is still very far. I understand people wanting shortcuts then. Still, a shortcut shouldn't be defended as "the only solution", but as "the fastest solution".

[Roamingmachine]

Not unless we do accept that humanity can't change. I, for example, doubt that, so I can see other solutions. After all, with the exception of Tevinter, now the vast majority of Thedas don't see the elves as slaves. It's not much, true, but it's a change.
 
 
Rejoice then, because DA:I provides a desperate time where desperate individuals may be grasping at any straw to save themselves. No better time to make another pact to push things in the right direction. However, the goal post is still very far. I understand people wanting shortcuts then. Still, a shortcut shouldn't be defended as "the only solution", but as "the fastest solution".

Problem is, humanity has not changed its tune since the fall of the dales. With tevinter, the elves had common grounds with the andrastian humans in their hatred for tevinter so an alliance was made. The events leading to the fall of the dales and the fall itself tell us that the andrastian humans viewed elves much like tevinter did, only slavery was banned. Dialogue would be preferable, but without any indication that humanity has stopped viewing elves as animals walking on two legs, there is absolutely no point in it. I hope that the humanity of thedas can change, but I don't base my analysis on hope but on the situation as it stands.

And yes, the events of inquisition are indeed an opportune time. Though I'm sure you can guess the opportunity I'm thinking about.

[Steelcan]

This thing is still going?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

This thing is still going?

 

Beautiful isn't it?

[LobselVith8]

If you are going to simply resort to petty insults and attacks we have nothing more to say to each other,

 

I have not done anything to deserve this level of hostility so I feel like reporting you is the best course of action now since you are either out for blood or a troll

 

I'd say that intentionally derailing the entire purpose of a thread to antagonize people who are genuinely interested in civilly discussing how a hypothetical elven homeland would work is the behavior of a troll. I'm hardly surprised that people are getting fed up with how some of you are simply here to continually detract from the actual purpose of the thread to regurgitate your hatred for the elves or the prospect of an elven homeland.

[Roamingmachine]

This thing is still going?

For some reason these threads are left going round in circles long after a lock is due. Beats me why.