695 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

For some reason these threads are left going round in circles long after a lock is due. Beats me why.

 

Why lock them when the next thread to mention elves, mages, Templars or the chantry will just fall into going around in the same circles.

[Steelcan]

I'd say that intentionally derailing the entire purpose of a thread to antagonize people who are genuinely interested in civilly discussing how a hypothetical elven homeland would work is the behavior of a troll. I'm hardly surprised that people are getting fed up with how some of you are simply here to continually detract from the actual purpose of the thread to regurgitate your hatred for the elves or the prospect of an elven homeland.

. The attacks on my person are uncalled for regardless.

And I did discuss a hypothetical eleven state as a client of Orlais, but instead of debating the merits of that it seems personal attacks are a preferable idea

[TK514]

I'd say that intentionally derailing the entire purpose of a thread to antagonize people who are genuinely interested in civilly discussing how a hypothetical elven homeland would work is the behavior of a troll. I'm hardly surprised that people are getting fed up with how some of you are simply here to continually detract from the actual purpose of the thread to regurgitate your hatred for the elves or the prospect of an elven homeland.

Right. And you are totally innocent of ever starting or taking part in a thread derailment to push your personal agendas.

Edit: Not worth the effort.

[Roamingmachine]

Right. And you are totally innocent of ever starting or taking part in a thread derailment to push your personal agendas.

He stays on topic until the flames start coming. Can you say the same?

[Tenebrae]

While an elven client state is a workable idea, I don’t believe that Orlais as a beneficiary of said state is a good idea i see them gobbling it up eventual should they be in a position of lordship of said state.

 

A better solution for a client elven state would be for it to be a Ferelden vassal with eventual Nevarran support, a combination that might give Orlais some pause, which could give the elves enough breathing room to breed and build some sort of organized military tradition, with the end goal of being fully independent way off in the future.

[Samahl]

. The attacks on my person are uncalled for regardless.
And I did discuss a hypothetical eleven state as a client of Orlais, but instead of debating the merits of that it seems personal attacks are a preferable idea

You refused to actually address Faerunner's argument, and insisted on calling her hostile for no reason. She lashed out in frustration, which is completely understandable, because you all you did was resort to tone-policing and circular reasoning.

[Steelcan]

[quote name="Samahl" post="17134130" timestamp="1408033793"]You refused to actually address Faerunner's argument, and insisted on calling her hostile for no reason. She lashed out in frustration, which is completely understandable, because you all you did was resort to tone-policing and circular reasoning.[/spoiler]Giving an answer you don't like is different from not giving one. I answered her twice, but when she decided to resort to petty name calling its clear tgat she really had nothing to say and was simply trying to be argumentative and combative.

I answered her posts and she decided my answers weren't good so instead petty insults take the place of civil discourse.

[Cainhurst Crow]

They wouldn't be rebelling in the first place if they felt like they had another choice.

 

They could try and establish farm lands. Pool together their coin to get some better facilities. Create a malitia force to help patrol and protect the aliengage as best as possible. They could try to work more with humans without calling them shem every few minutes.

 

But I guess wanton bloodshed, looting, and open racism is a better course, in the end.

[TK514]

He stays on topic until the flames start coming. Can you say the same?

He'll jump to the defense of elves (and Mages) the moment there is even a hint that someone might have said something even remotely negative about them, regardless of context or thread topic. The day he doesn't and is still active on the boards is the day I know someone has hacked his account. And I don't hold it against him, generally. I simply take issue with him casting stones, in this case.

As for your second, what an absurd question. I am taking part in a derailment right now, and this would hardly be the first in my time on these boards, on the old boards, or in my decades on the internet in general. And you'll never find me claiming otherwise.

[Dean_the_Young]

Makes you wonder if that was Briala intended at the end of TME. Many have interpreted her actions as "she wants to prolongue the war, she's evil!" or "she wants to anger both factions, she's stupid!". However, what if her goal is to ensure that both candidates are desperate enough so that at least one of them tries to broker a deal with the elves, in the elves' own terms, in exchange of help?

 

If it was she went about it in an exceptionally bad way. She passed up an opportunity of maximum advantage with minimal cost to herself or the elves in favor of a position that stands to antagonize everyone by encouraging them to reach that point of desperation.

 

Desperate people will strike desperate deals, but they are far, far, far less inclined to honor them if they blame you for them. That might work for, say, Gaspard, but it wouldn't work well against Celene and both of them would be far more incintivized to work to mitigate Briala's advantage and to maximize Briala's weaknesse (which, among other things, include a lack of legitimacy and influence with the elves: she identifies with them, but not so much in the revere [yet]).

 

 

 

Of course, a negotiation like that wouldn't end in complete independence, but Master Warder Z's "Valley of the flowers" idea might be likely. And it would come from the elves' position that they earned themselves, not a gift given by the Empress just because she felt generous one day.

 

It would also be the most likely to be open to future sabotage in the future. The humans won't feel the Elves earned it- they'll feel the elves extorted it. Which they would have.

 

Legitimacy is a two way street. The elves need to feel an outcome is acceptable, but so do the humans.

[Samahl]

[quote name="Steelcan" post="17134157" timestamp="1408034103"][quote name="Samahl" post="17134130" timestamp="1408033793"]I answered her posts and she decided my answers weren't good so instead petty insults take the place of civil discourse.[/quote]

Your answers weren't good, they were circular. And she only made one rude comment, referring to your "delicate feelings". Other than that, she was perfectly civil.

[Dean_the_Young]

'Live free or die' is why I would accept the extinction of the elven species in a war against their oppressors. My actual arguments why all other solutions than war are blocked are clearly stated.

 

 

And they amount to the same thing: an opinion of what is acceptable/tolerable or not.

 

The only argument a personal opinion wins is the argument of what your personal opinion is.
 

Grey Wardens have had elves fighting in their ranks from the go, yet it has had absolutely no impact on their standing with the general populace.

 

 

 

You have no idea if the elven wardens have had any standing with the general populace because you have no frame of reference of what the elven standing with the populace before an elf became a Grey Warden Hero.

 

 

Pacts made in desperate times that involved a trade is hardly indicative of humanity changing a bit, merely demonstrating desperate individuals grasping at any straw to save themselves.

 

 

That is an indication of the ability and practice of change. Change always comes with a catalyst of some sort.

[Samahl]

I simply take issue with him casting stones, in this case.

This thread literally says "elf supporters" in the title, and a bunch of anti-elf people decided to raid it, declaring the Dalish deserving of extinction, and talking about how impractical the idea of elves having their own land was - nevermind that the thread is talking about how a hypothetical homeland would be run if they had secured their independence. People went out of their way to derail this thread.

[TK514]

ame="Steelcan" post="17134157" timestamp="1408034103"]
And she only made one rude comment, referring to your "delicate feelings". Other than that, she was perfectly civil.

Given that the mods felt it necessary to edit at least one of their posts, and one that was not your "delicate feelings" example, I'd say we have proof to the contrary.

[Steelcan]

ame="Steelcan" post="17134157" timestamp="1408034103"]
Your answers weren't good, they were circular. And she only made one rude comment, referring to your "delicate feelings". Other than that, she was perfectly civil.

. A hostile tone from the outset does not a civil conversation make.

And once again, not liking my answers is one thing, dismissing them as irrelevant quite another.

And they were circular because this is frankly a circular and cyclical argument

[Samahl]

Given that the mods felt it necessary to edit at least one of their posts, and one that was not your "delicate feelings" example, I'd say we have proof to the contrary.

They edited out the "threat" of hostility, which I suppose could also be considered impolite, I suppose. That was after he accused her "tone" of being hostile, though.

[Samahl]

. A hostile tone from the outset does not a civil conversation make.

How do you know what her "tone" was? This is the internet - you could easily be reading hostility into her words on your own.

[Dean_the_Young]

To put it in brutal frankness, if humans were going to treat elves better on account of aid in times of crisis, they would have done it by now.

 

Except they did. The crisis was the First Blight and Andraste's rebellion, the result was called the Dales, and it was one of the most important developments in Human-Elven relations until it broke down.

 

It's break down was a result of actions by both sides, including a deliberate policy by the polity that could claim to represent 'the elves' to NOT help out in a time of crisis, and still didn't reach race-war proportions until after the Dales were well into a military campaign that sacked a number of Human cities and nearly the spiritual capital of southern Thedas.

 

There's a significant difference between 'lost what was once won' and 'never got nuthin'.

[Dean_the_Young]

This thread literally says "elf supporters" in the title, and a bunch of anti-elf people decided to raid it, declaring the Dalish deserving of extinction,

 

Who is this 'bunch'?

 

 

and talking about how impractical the idea of elves having their own land was -

 

Why is this 'anti-elf'?

 

nevermind that the thread is talking about how a hypothetical homeland would be run if they had secured their independence.

 

How can we discuss how the homeland would be run if we can't establish the context of how?

 

 

 

People went out of their way to derail this thread.

 

 

The thread had a weak foundation from the start when it wanted to talk about the 'what' without addressing the 'how.' The how is extremely relevant to 'what' is even possible.

[Cainhurst Crow]

You mean the farms that get burned and looted when they try to leave the alienage?

 

 

 

 

You mean the little precious coin that goes toward basic survival, like food and rent? (skip to 14:40)

 

 

 

 

You mean the militia that's outlawed since, in most places, elves aren't allowed to even own weapons, never mind use them? (Like the Denerim Alienage.)

 

 

 

 

And humans could try to work more with elves without calling them knife ear, inflict violence or look the other way when violence is inflicted on them every few minutes.

 

 

 

 

So a few elves act a little unfriendly, and this means all elves deserve systematic subjugation and violence against them?

 

 

 

 

Many humans seem to think so. Those that don't seem to look the other way.

 

Yes, Yes, Yes, So doing the thing they don't like to others is somehow not suppose to make them pissed at them?, It's not a few it seems to be a great majority of them.

 

And **** the warmonger racist elves, they ruin elven society and will be the death of their people.

[Steelcan]

How do you know what her "tone" was? This is the internet - you could easily be reading hostility into her words on your own.

. Diction is helpful, as is context

[TK514]

How do you know what her "tone" was? This is the internet - you could easily be reading hostility into her words on your own.

Ahh. I see now. You're just trying to get a rise out of others. I admit, you had me for a minute.