695 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Really? We're arguing how dare someone stop talking to someone they found being rude now? Get over it people can debate with whoever they want.

[TK514]

Really? We're arguing how dare someone stop talking to someone they found being rude now? Get over it people can debate with whoever they want.

In spite of Dean's valiant effort, I think we really are off the map now.

[dragonflight288]

*whistles non-chalantly*

 

If the elves get a homeland in the Dales, and Orlais and the Chantry is too weak to do anything about it because of the breach and the civil war, I know that my Inquisition will help secure the elven borders, spread the word to all city elves that they have a homeland. 

 

The Dalish can act as law enforcment, teachers and soldiers within the borders, and the city elves who settle will know more about building homes, setting up shops within a closed community, and help build up a society's structure. 

 

With the aid of my Inquisition, the elves will have the strength to hold their borders and the humans will simply have to deal with the fact that the elves are their equals. 

[Ryzaki]

*whistles non-chalantly*

 

If the elves get a homeland in the Dales, and Orlais and the Chantry is too weak to do anything about it because of the breach and the civil war, I know that my Inquisition will help secure the elven borders, spread the word to all city elves that they have a homeland. 

 

The Dalish can act as law enforcment, teachers and soldiers within the borders, and the city elves who settle will know more about building homes, setting up shops within a closed community, and help build up a society's structure. 

 

With the aid of my Inquisition, the elves will have the strength to hold their borders and the humans will simply have to deal with the fact that the elves are their equals. 

 

This would be awesome if the Inquisition had a hand in whether the elves got a homeland or not. Maybe they could fast forward the next game 30 years or so and they end up with the land another way if you didn't help them (but maybe as a result there's more (or less) resentment and so on).

 

That could be interesting.

[Roamingmachine]

And they amount to the same thing: an opinion of what is acceptable/tolerable or not.
 
The only argument a personal opinion wins is the argument of what your personal opinion is.
 
 
You have no idea if the elven wardens have had any standing with the general populace because you have no frame of reference of what the elven standing with the populace before an elf became a Grey Warden Hero.
 
 
That is an indication of the ability and practice of change. Change always comes with a catalyst of some sort.

My opinions are backed by observations the situation in Thedas as it now stands. Sorry, but you do have to actually attack the observations with some of your own if you want to invalidate them. Handwaving them away won't work here.

If an elf became a grey warden hero who selflessly saved the world, most people with full control of their faculties would re-evaluate their opinions on elves. That simply didn't happen or it was so brief a change that it might as well have not happened. Ergo, elves serving in the grey wardens had no impact on the social standing of their species.

The ability for individuals to change tells us nothing about their collective ability. What we do know that the attitude of humanity towards elves has not changed for 900 years. That indicates that the collective of humanity has no wish to change.

[Steelcan]

City Elves and Dalish mixing is a disaster waiting to happen. Different religions. Different cultures, different life styles

[LobselVith8]

In spite of Dean's valiant effort, I think we really are off the map now.

 

Dean is making excuses for people derailing the thread; I wouldn't call it a valiant effort by any measure.

[TheJediSaint]

City Elves and Dalish mixing is a disaster waiting to happen. Different religions. Different cultures, different life styles

The Dalish can solve that with reeducation camps rehabilitation centers.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The elves cannot govern themselves, not unless you want it to become a failed state because the elves as a collective whole do not have a means of unifying or governing themselves. They're great at small communal living, of that I will not deny. Alienages force elves to live in such fashion and dalish clans practice it willingly, but the fact remains that they can be assumed to be able to create communities.

 

Note that word, communities, plural. That's something I noticed in all the source material, that there is no singular unifying culture to these elves. Each alienage views themselves as an elf of a country, fereldan elf, orlesian elf, tevinter elf, free marches elf, etc. Dalish are an prime example of this from all the different clans they have and that most don't get along with one another, sometimes violently not getting along. Elf is not a strong identity to their race, nationality and social status seems to be more important to them in terms of how they shape an identity.

 

So you give these varied elves a single land to populate, and leave it up to them to figure out how they organize themselves. The only few possibilities there are involve either a massive civil war for dominance where only the strongest clan rules, or a fractured state of smaller-then-a-city-state territory with no ability to coordinate and constant boarder disputes.

 

They need either foreign rule or one-out-of-a-million luck of the draw elven serf who knows how to organize a state, because otherwise we're going to have an unstable ruling authority trying to reconcile vastly different ideological individuals. But assuming we have an all elf government, here's what I feel needs to happen.

 

First order of business is that we need to weed out the extremists who are willing to kill for what they believe. The last thing we need is pacifist elves being killed by humanophobic elves as "human lovers" and a civil war between the two to tear the state apart. Once that is established we need to work on a way to make sure the vastly different ideologies don't feel alienated to the point of open revolt, how that happens is unknown to me but I doubt it'll be through democratic merit.

 

A hegemony might be what's needed, a singular group or alliance of groups powerful enough to force the others into agreement while the others maintain some form of internal independence. Anyway, once that is done, and assuming we have an all elf government, we need to bring in foreign advisers to start making political alliances and learning the greater aspects of rule, such as proper excercies of power, diplomacy, taxation, infrastructure maintenance,  basically we need a seneschal to help keep the governements non-military activities running.

 

Because lets be honest, elves don't have the means of knowing how to do this stuff through basic social circumstances. If they aren't willing to get outside help, they will fall, that simple.

 

After all of this is done, hopefully, just maybe, they'll be able to last a few centuries before they either galvanize into a solid state, or are broken apart from the inside out and devoured by their neighbors. Either way, it'll be up to luck really in hoping the next people in line won't try to start a war.

[TK514]

Dean is making excuses for people derailing the thread; I wouldn't call it a valiant effort by any measure.

If that's what you believe,why are you continuing the derail?

[Ryzaki]

The Dalish can solve that with reeducation camps rehabilitation centers.

 

Man is it too much for me to want the dalish to bugger off and the CE to gain rights (via rioting or anything) with their human lands.

[Samahl]

. Diction is helpful, as is context

And what about it was hostile, exactly?

[Steelcan]

And what about it was hostile, exactly?

. Thew posts reeked of hostility, I don't have to explain why felt this word was insulting or that one was rude, the posts seemed rude to me and that's pretty much the end

[dragonflight288]

snip

 

So every slave in Tevinter, human and elf alike simply cannot rise up to form empires, kingdoms, or possibly hope to defeat their overlords with any level of success because all the odds are stacked against them.

 

I'm sure the slave Andraste, Shartan, and all of southern Thedas that rebelled against Tevinter that enslaved them for 1000 years completely agree with you. No success came from their trying to claim freedom and homes. 

[Steelcan]

So every slave in Tevinter, human and elf alike simply cannot rise up to form empires, kingdoms, or possibly hope to defeat their overlords with any level of success because all the odds are stacked against them.

 

I'm sure the slave Andraste, Shartan, and all of southern Thedas that rebelled against Tevinter that enslaved them for 1000 years completely agree with you. No success came from their trying to claim freedom and homes. 

when teh Maker himself decides to come down and throw them apart that can help, not to mention how weak Tevinter was from Blight

[TheJediSaint]

 

Man is it too much for me to want the dalish to bugger off and the CE to gain rights (via rioting or anything) with their human lands.

What the City Elves need are rights and legal protections against abuse by those in power.  Faffing them of to a reservation to live with the supercilious Dalish is only exchanging one set of oppressors for another.

[Roamingmachine]

What the City Elves need are rights and legal protections against abuse by those in power.  Faffing them of to a reservation to live with the supercilious Dalish is only exchanging one set of oppressors for another.

Rights and protections are worthless when there is no-one willing to enforce them. But I'm sure you knew this already. Round and round and round she goes....

[Steelcan]

What the City Elves need are rights and legal protections against abuse by those in power.  Faffing them of to a reservation to live with the supercilious Dalish is only exchanging one set of oppressors for another.

Its not like the Dalish have a history or religious intolerance, violence, oh wait.....

[Steelcan]

Rights and protections are worthless when there is no-one willing to enforce them. But I'm sure you knew this already. Round and round and round she goes....

and violence just leads to more dead elves with no hope of success

[Ryzaki]

What the City Elves need are rights and legal protections against abuse by those in power.  Faffing them of to a reservation to live with the supercilious Dalish is only exchanging one set of oppressors for another.

 

Yep. This I'd love to see and be apart of (again kind of bummed no CE origin in Inquisition )

 

I don't see a CE and Dalish land going very well. The Dalish don't see to have any sort of plan anyway.

[dragonflight288]

when teh Maker himself decides to come down and throw them apart that can help, not to mention how weak Tevinter was from Blight

 

So what you're saying is that a Blight is the only thing that can weaken a nation and a religion (worship of the Old Gods) to such a degree that those underneath can rises up. 

 

I guess demons raining from the sky and two civil wars, one in a country and the other in a religion simply don't compare and any thoughts of building a homeland during such a time is simply doomed from the start. Of course everyone will have full strength after all is said and done. 

[TheJediSaint]

Rights and protections are worthless when there is no-one willing to enforce them. But I'm sure you knew this already. Round and round and round she goes....

No one's forcing you to post.  And saying the City Elves need legal rights is more on-topic than complaining about the circularity of the thread.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So every slave in Tevinter, human and elf alike simply cannot rise up to form empires, kingdoms, or possibly hope to defeat their overlords with any level of success because all the odds are stacked against them.

 

I'm sure the slave Andraste, Shartan, and all of southern Thedas that rebelled against Tevinter that enslaved them for 1000 years completely agree with you. No success came from their trying to claim freedom and homes. 

 

Well, honestly it didn't. Andraste's rebellion got ride of the old regime, but the political structures used to rule over those lands were still intact. It was Archon Hessarian's conversion to the faith that manages to make her rebellion an actual success. Considering his position as head of the largest empire to exist in thedas recorded history, it gave a bit of an advantage over making an empire from scratch.

 

A lot of thedas's governments appear to have been based off of the governmental remains of the tevinter imperium. A lot of the old structures used to house the government for example were made by previous occupiers. Much of the ruling families had ties to old tevinter as well as their political systems, for example fereldans entire political system was developed from the Almmari's adaptation to tevinter occupation.

 

What's basically being asked however is for the poor, the uneducated, and the pretty individualistically driven, to unite together and drop all their previous individual ideologies and group associations to form a identity in a new state and accept not having their own agenda's as the forefront of a new government. They're being asked to do this with no established authority present, no pre-established source of laws, and really just out of nowhere.

 

And you don't think there are going to be problems? The elves, both city and dalish, getting one land to occupy, and being expected to just live together harmoniously, is really a tall and unfair order to ask of them. This entire exercise is optimistic, which I can understand, but its honestly optimistic to the point of being just ignorant of basic behavioral or social factors.

 

Even the title, "How would your run a homeland" is too optimistic because to me, it says one homeland would be enough for the elves. Which given the massive ideological split between the dalish clans themselves, and the city elves themselves, adn the dalish and city elves together, doesn't make it really a feasible thing to even speculate on without there being lots of death and infighting.

[Roamingmachine]

and violence just leads to more dead elves with no hope of success

Live on your knees or die on your feet. Seriously, I'm getting dizzy with these circular arguments @_@

[Ryzaki]

and violence just leads to more dead elves with no hope of success

 

Not always. Sometimes yes people have to die for a group of people to be listened to. Violence is as much a part of change as peaceful protests. You need both. One without the other isn't gonna tend to work. You can't just wait for someone who's benefiting from your oppression to turn their noble gaze upon you and deign to give you rights. Not if they benefit from you below them.

 

That said running around screaming like a maniac usually does little but give you momentary bonuses that are slowly taken back the second you calm down and the dust has settled. Assuming they even give you said rights and don't just disgard you as an animal.

 

That said screw the dalish would probably be the result of many humans. For them violence would only backfire because humans don't interact with them on a daily basis so wtf do they care if they all drop dead. They don't even provide labor beneficial to said humans.

 

The CEs have more of a point for the violence situation.