695 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Live on your knees or die on your feet. Seriously, I'm getting dizzy with these circular arguments @_@

and I say that argument is just a bad idea

[TheJediSaint]

Yep. This I'd love to see and be apart of (again kind of bummed no CE origin in Inquisition )

 

I don't see a CE and Dalish land going very well. The Dalish don't see to have any sort of plan anyway.

 

I tend to view the plight of the city elves as the same as those of human peasants.  Especially in Orlais, they're pretty much at the mercy of the nobility, little more than property.  Something like the City Elf Boon, where the Alienage get's its own Bann, is a good example of how to improve the lot of City Elves.

[Roamingmachine]

No one's forcing you to post.  And saying the City Elves need legal rights is more on-topic than complaining about the circularity of the thread.

This thread has no particular topic anymore. It's a passive-aggressive mess circling the drain. Your argument was made a couple of pages back, It was replied to and it led straight to where we are now.

[Ryzaki]

I tend to view the blight of the city elves as the same as those of human peasants.  Especially in Orlais, they're pretty much at the mercy of the nobility, little more than property.  Something like the City Elf Boon, where the Alienage get's its own Bann is a good example.

 

I actually preferred taking the Teryn title as a CE. That has a CE noble in a very high influence of power and I'm sure in her Terynir CEs would actually be treated as equal citizens. That at least to me would work out better than the Bann. (and if anyone's stupid enough to start anything...well she didn't become the hero of fereldan by not being able to kick ass).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Live on your knees or die on your feet. Seriously, I'm getting dizzy with these circular arguments @_@

 

Or you could just live, you know, normal?

[Roamingmachine]

Or you could just live, you know, normal?

If by normal you mean being treated worse than stray dogs, then yes. You could do that.

[TK514]

The elves cannot govern themselves, not unless you want it to become a failed state because the elves as a collective whole do not have a means of unifying or governing themselves. They're great at small communal living, of that I will not deny. Alienages force elves to live in such fashion and dalish clans practice it willingly, but the fact remains that they can be assumed to be able to create communities.
 
Note that word, communities, plural. That's something I noticed in all the source material, that there is no singular unifying culture to these elves. Each alienage views themselves as an elf of a country, fereldan elf, orlesian elf, tevinter elf, free marches elf, etc. Dalish are an prime example of this from all the different clans they have and that most don't get along with one another, sometimes violently not getting along. Elf is not a strong identity to their race, nationality and social status seems to be more important to them in terms of how they shape an identity.
 
So you give these varied elves a single land to populate, and leave it up to them to figure out how they organize themselves. The only few possibilities there are involve either a massive civil war for dominance where only the strongest clan rules, or a fractured state of smaller-then-a-city-state territory with no ability to coordinate and constant boarder disputes.
 
They need either foreign rule or one-out-of-a-million luck of the draw elven serf who knows how to organize a state, because otherwise we're going to have an unstable ruling authority trying to reconcile vastly different ideological individuals. But assuming we have an all elf government, here's what I feel needs to happen.
 
First order of business is that we need to weed out the extremists who are willing to kill for what they believe. The last thing we need is pacifist elves being killed by humanophobic elves as "human lovers" and a civil war between the two to tear the state apart. Once that is established we need to work on a way to make sure the vastly different ideologies don't feel alienated to the point of open revolt, how that happens is unknown to me but I doubt it'll be through democratic merit.
 
A hegemony might be what's needed, a singular group or alliance of groups powerful enough to force the others into agreement while the others maintain some form of internal independence. Anyway, once that is done, and assuming we have an all elf government, we need to bring in foreign advisers to start making political alliances and learning the greater aspects of rule, such as proper excercies of power, diplomacy, taxation, infrastructure maintenance,  basically we need a seneschal to help keep the governements non-military activities running.
 
Because lets be honest, elves don't have the means of knowing how to do this stuff through basic social circumstances. If they aren't willing to get outside help, they will fall, that simple.
 
After all of this is done, hopefully, just maybe, they'll be able to last a few centuries before they either galvanize into a solid state, or are broken apart from the inside out and devoured by their neighbors. Either way, it'll be up to luck really in hoping the next people in line won't try to start a war.

You have nicely spelled out my concern as well. The elves have no unity. The clans don't agree with each other and the city elves think of themselves as citizens of their respective nations.

This is a recurring issue in these discussions, namely that we tend to lump disparate groups together as though they were distinct unified groups, when in fact many of them are oil and water. A Ferelden Elf and an Orlesian elf would have the same issues with one another as any other citizens of those nations because they are Ferelden and Orlesian first, and elves second.

The other thing we tend to assume is that all elves want an Elven homeland. We know the Dalish want a homeland, but evidence suggests that many city elves just want things to be better in their current homelands. Again, because they put national identity over racial.

Any Elven homeland would have to by addressing who it is actually for. If they try to encompass everyone, they'll end up satisfying no one and potentially end up embroiled in a series of unification wars with themselves, all the while being watched by potentially hostile, avaricious and opportunistic neighbors.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The Dalish really need to be wiped out or at least kept out if any elven nation is to work, otherwise they'd probably try to take control with their anti human & isolationist ideas which will just cause problems with nearby human countries & end with them being conquered yet again, a CE run state could work but adding the Dalish is a catastrophe waiting to happen

[Steelcan]

If by normal you mean being treated worse than stray dogs, then yes. You could do that.

nonsense, we've seen how Orlesians treat dogs, and its not that different from how they treat human peasants or city elves

[Cainhurst Crow]

If by normal you mean being treated worse than stray dogs, then yes. You could do that.

 

Theres a lot of middle ground between living as a slave and dying as a martyr. I'd rather live and try to get a better life for myself that doesn't involve getting a sword through my gut.

 

But there I go again, wanting people to act normal and not like a cardboard cutout.

[Lulupab]

If I was in Thedas and an Elf I would so much rather to be a Dalish than a City Elf. Dalish are just nomads whereas the city elves live in gilded cages (alienages) are 2nd class citizens and not to mention constant problems such as abuse or disease etc...

[Steelcan]

If I was in Thedas and an Elf I would so much rather to be a Dalish than a City Elf. Dalish are just nomads whereas the city elves live in gilded cages (alienages) are 2nd class citizens and not to mention constant problems such as abuse or disease etc...

there is certainly no gilding in the alienages

[LobselVith8]

Or you could just live, you know, normal?

 

Living a life in a dilapidated ghetto doesn't sound like something the city elves should have to endure anymore. The city elves endure persecution and purges, while the Dalish isolate themselves from Andrastian humans who threaten them; the developers and the lore note how human lords and lynch mobs drive them off the land if they stay too long in a particular area, while the Chantry outlawed the elven religion in the Andrastian kingdoms. I think the Dalish and the city elves deserve better than the status quo they've had to endure for close to a thousand years now.

[Ryzaki]

there is certainly no gilding in the alienages

 

Yeah I was about to say.

 

Dalish do get the benefits of access to healing magic as well.

[Steelcan]

Living a life in a dilapidated ghetto doesn't sound like something the city elves should have to endure anymore. The city elves endure persecution and purges, while the Dalish isolate themselves from Andrastian humans who threaten them; the developers and the lore note how human lords and lynch mobs drive them off the land if they stay too long in a particular area, while the Chantry outlawed the elven religion in the Andrastian kingdoms. I think the Dalish and the city elves deserve better than the status quo they've had to endure for close to a thousand years now.

Yes they do, the City Elves deserve greater economic opportunities and political rights, however going about this by violence won't work.

 

As for the Dalish they can keep on keeping on into the history books for all I care

[Roamingmachine]

Theres a lot of middle ground between living as a slave and dying as a martyr. I'd rather live and try to get a better life for myself that doesn't involve getting a sword through my gut.
 
But there I go again, wanting people to act normal and not like a cardboard cutout.

Even normal people will eventually have enough of being tread on. No revolution has ever been achieved by avoiding conflict.

[Steelcan]

Even normal people will eventually have enough of being tread on. No revolution has ever been achieved by avoiding conflict.

yes they have, in fact peaceful revolutions have a much better track record, the Civil Rights movement in America, Gandhi in India, Solidarity in Poland

[The Hierophant]

If Briala is still alive and is able to protect the City Elves from discrimination, a stable Elven Nation is feasible. This would also require the powers at be to not adopt a classist system that disadvantages the CE since the discrimination they have suffered would still be fresh on their minds and potentially lead to civil unrest.

[Ryzaki]

yes they have, in fact peaceful revolutions have a much better track record, the Civil Rights movement in America, Gandhi in India, Solidarity in Poland

 

There were several race riots during the civil rights movement. Just being peaceful doesn't have people listen to you unless they have a reason to. And usually they won't without violence or money/power. Since some groups lack the latter they have to use the former.

 

God I had a really good quote on him pretty much saying not to wait for people to deign to hand you your rights but I lost it. Let me dig.

 

Sometimes peace does nothing.

 

Edit: FOUND IT
 

"the ******'s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the ****** to wait for a "more convenient season."

 

*** is Ne word for black people.

[dragonflight288]

Yes they do, the City Elves deserve greater economic opportunities and political rights, however going about this by violence won't work.

 

As for the Dalish they can keep on keeping on into the history books for all I care

 

If rudeness and having a desire to build up their beliefs is enough to wish for a group's extinction, you must also wish the same upon the Chantry and its zealot members. 

[Master Warder Z_]

If Briala is still alive and is able to protect the City Elves from discrimination, a stable Elven Nation is feasible. This would also require the powers at be to not adopt a classist system that disadvantages the CE since the discrimination they have suffered would still be fresh on their minds and potentially lead to civil unrest.

 

So what the Qunari Meritocracy?

[dekarserverbot]

talking as my warden... "kill all humans, save the mages"

[Steelcan]

If rudeness and having a desire to build up their beliefs is enough to wish for a group's extinction, you must also wish the same upon the Chantry and its zealot members. 

I have little patience for zealots of any stripe