695 réponses à ce sujet

[umadcommander]

ah continuing the cycle of revenge seems like a fantastic step to take, especially when the elves without an organised form of military no alliances and no heavy cavalry or infantry units to speak of would be creamed

 

i despair at some peoples foolishness i really do

 

if the elves want their own state they will not get it by force they dont have the manpower, the backing or the equipment, hell with alistair on fereldens throne they have the perfect opening to try diplomacy but will they? i highly doubt it

[Altima Darkspells]

Benevolent dictatorship.

[Lulupab]

ah continuing the cycle of revenge seems like a fantastic step to take, especially when the elves without an organised form of military no alliances and no heavy cavalry or infantry units to speak of would be creamed
 
i despair at some peoples foolishness i really do
 
if the elves want their own state they will not get it by force they dont have the manpower, the backing or the equipment, hell with alistair on fereldens throne they have the perfect opening to try diplomacy but will they? i highly doubt it

I personally would prefer a peaceful way but don't underestimate the elves. They were actually winning the war against the Orlais until it desperately called for an exalted march.

[A Clever Name]

Gonna have revenge first for Arlathan and Dales.

Please no.  Revenge is never okay, no matter who carries it out.  It just results in cyclical violence and furthers resentment.

 

Authoritarian oligarchies are about the only sort of fledgling state the elves have a chance of producing. Besides that those are the dominant governments in Thedas, with an intellectual void for alternatives, those are also the most common/default states for inexperienced governments and without civil societies.

 

If I were one of the elves in the fledgling states, i wouldn't be a progressive liberal of the 21st century west. I'd be an ignorant, uneducated, broadly racist and exceptionally poor person with no real standing or basis for having good and useful ideas.

Education does not equal virtue.  Perhaps they are correlated, but it's not a causation.

 

 

I think a federation could be useful in the long-run for a hypothetical elven nation-state.  Something like the Swiss Confederation, maybe, with a federal parliamentary republic.  That keeps accountability high, although legitimacy could be an issue.  Maybe they could throw in a second-round system of direct election to help with that.  Assuming anything of the sort could ever arise in Thedas.  It's hardly up to speed with what I'd hypothesize for a workable nation-state, which is why I can only see it ending in disaster.

 

Given the attitudes toward elves and the fact that no one likes an isolationist state, it'd be difficult to implement.  Plus there's the issue of where the territory would come from.  It's hardly unsettled land, no matter where you draw those borders!  There are ways of moving people with a "fair trade" but I doubt they'd be happy to do so (eminent domain, etcetera etcetera), particularly if you were taking the original territory of the Dales back.  Halamshiral is coveted by Orlais and I don't believe they'd give it up without a fight.  Ultimately I think there are too many problems to deal with to make an elven nation-state viable.  That's just my opinion, though.

[Lulupab]

Please no.  Revenge is never okay, no matter who carries it out.  It just results in cyclical violence and furthers resentment.

Unless its Retribution.

[LobselVith8]

ah continuing the cycle of revenge seems like a fantastic step to take, especially when the elves without an organised form of military no alliances and no heavy cavalry or infantry units to speak of would be creamed

 

i despair at some peoples foolishness i really do

 

I don't think it's foolish for people to express their interest in an independent elven kingdom, much less in a thread that's supposed to reflect our opinions and ideas on how one could be managed. I also don't see the elves reclaiming the Dales as revenge, but rather finally having a place that can serve as a haven for the elves all over Thedas, from the nomadic clans to the destitute elves of the Alienages, from the elves of the Qun to the escapes slaves of the Imperium. It can be a genuine symbol of hope and prosperity for elves of all backgrounds and faiths.

 

if the elves want their own state they will not get it by force they dont have the manpower, the backing or the equipment, hell with alistair on fereldens throne they have the perfect opening to try diplomacy but will they? i highly doubt it

 

The elves of the Dales have the perfect opportunity with an elven Inquisitor having command of a military force who obeys his commands. And this thread isn't intended to discuss whether or not an autonomous elven state is warranted, but how players could envision it being managed by the elves.

[umadcommander]

I don't think it's foolish for people to express their interest in an independent elven kingdom, much less in a thread that's supposed to reflect our opinions and ideas on how one could be managed. I also don't see the elves reclaiming the Dales as revenge, but rather finally having a place that can serve as a haven for the elves all over Thedas, from the nomadic clans to the destitute elves of the Alienages, from the elves of the Qun to the escapes slaves of the Imperium. It can be a genuine symbol of hope and prosperity for elves of all backgrounds and faiths.

 

 

The elves of the Dales have the perfect opportunity with an elven Inquisitor having command of a military force who obeys his commands. And this thread isn't intended to discuss whether or not an autonomous elven state is warranted, but how players could envision it being managed by the elves.

that was more aimed at skim reading the thread and people calling for "revenge"

 

but getting onto that an elven inquisitor "with a force who obeys him" is going to lose a lot of support if he starts actively carving out an elven kingdom for numerous reasons

 

an elven state is not an inherently bad idea, but it will only be a haven to all elves everywhere if they conform to the beliefs of the dalish because lets be honest when people ask for an elven state they are asking for a dalish state, and many elves from the andrastian nations, tevinter and qunari held lands may well wish to live in a better place (elves from qunari lands especially)  but not wish to conform to the dalish views on things such as religion and culture, and what happens then? you have the heavily splintered people in terms of belief all in one place and *that* spells disaster

 

at any rate, id only support the formation of such a state when its possible to be formed and it can hold itself together and at the present moment i have numerous serious doubts on each point and with how the choice and effect thing seems to hold itself across games (IE not well at all) it may never come to that sadly enough

[Wulfram]

 

when people ask for an elven state they are asking for a dalish state,

 

I'm not.  I'm asking for a state for the current inhabitants of the Dales, primarily

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Please no.  Revenge is never okay, no matter who carries it out.  It just results in cyclical violence and furthers resentment.

 

Education does not equal virtue.  Perhaps they are correlated, but it's not a causation.

 

 

I think a federation could be useful in the long-run for a hypothetical elven nation-state.  Something like the Swiss Confederation, maybe, with a federal parliamentary republic.  That keeps accountability high, although legitimacy could be an issue.  Maybe they could throw in a second-round system of direct election to help with that.  Assuming anything of the sort could ever arise in Thedas.  It's hardly up to speed with what I'd hypothesize for a workable nation-state, which is why I can only see it ending in disaster.

 

Given the attitudes toward elves and the fact that no one likes an isolationist state, it'd be difficult to implement.  Plus there's the issue of where the territory would come from.  It's hardly unsettled land, no matter where you draw those borders!  There are ways of moving people with a "fair trade" but I doubt they'd be happy to do so (eminent domain, etcetera etcetera), particularly if you were taking the original territory of the Dales back.  Halamshiral is coveted by Orlais and I don't believe they'd give it up without a fight.  Ultimately I think there are too many problems to deal with to make an elven nation-state viable.  That's just my opinion, though.

 

 

I'm not speaking of education in terms of virtue. I'm speaking of education in terms of knowing what a federation even is. Or concepts of balance of powers, natural rights, sovereignity, and so on. Concepts of governance that seen basic to us but have no real development in Thedas, where 'limited government' means 'unable' to act rather than 'unwilling.'

 

I get that people want to bring in western liberalism and our general culture concept of governmental practices as a cure-all for an enlightened Thedas. We are, after all, educated products of the liberal enlightenment. But anachonisms are a non-starter in Thedas, which has no such liberalism or history of political theory to draw from.

 

Any elf in Thedas who wants to provide the blueprint for Thedasian government should use terms Thedasians might know. No appeals to concepts or anachronisms that have no meaning to them: if you wish to describe it, use terms they will understand.

 

Any elves who want to build a nation in Thedas will be doing so without words like 'Swiss', 'confederation,' 'federal,' 'parliamentary,' 'republic,' 'governmental accountability,' 'elections,' 'fair trade,' 'eminent domain,' and even 'nation-state.'

[LOLandStuff]

Gonna run it to the ground.

[Mistic]

Any elf in Thedas who wants to provide the blueprint for Thedasian government should use terms Thedasians might know. No appeals to concepts or anachronisms that have no meaning to them: if you wish to describe it, use terms they will understand.

 

Any elves who want to build a nation in Thedas will be doing so without words like 'Swiss', 'confederation,' 'federal,' 'parliamentary,' 'republic,' 'governmental accountability,' 'elections,' 'fair trade,' 'eminent domain,' and even 'nation-state.'

 

Very true. Of course, there will be always a first government in any society that couldn't been born from previous governments, because they didn't exist, and governments that were shaped by necessity and external conditions, but western liberalism is the product of centuries of political discussion before it could be put into practice. And it has been changing ever since.

 

So what are the current models Thedas can offer?

 

Feudal system is the norm in many places, with a king/emperor on top and vassals below, who have other vassals and so on. There are also some form of parliamentary politics in Orzammar and Tevinter (it's no coincidence that Tevinter copied a lot of things from the dwarves), limited by class (nobles in Orzammar, mages in Tevinter). The Dwarven city of Kal-Sharok seems to have a more advanced parliamentary system, but we know very little about them. Unofficial plutocratic oligarchy is in effect in Antiva. As for the Qun, their system is a strange form of totalitarian meritocratic collectivism.

 

The elves will probably look first to their own systems. What do we find there?

 

Thanks to Arlathan, we can guess that the old elven kingdom was a classist society with mages on top. Orlais seems to be the preferred example to describe them. We know little about the Dales, so it's difficult to say, apart from their isolationist policies. As for current elven societies, the Alienage elves offer the figure of the hahren, a bit of a mediator and spokesperson. Interestingly, despite having also the title of "elder" the position is not given to the oldest member of the Alienage, but to the one who is the "wisest, cleverest and most level-headed". That's a good start. As for the Dalish, we know that they have two sources of political power: the Keeper, the senior mage of the clan, and the elders (if they are "elder" in the same way as the City Elves' elders is something we don't know). The way power is shared seems to be different depending on the clan. In the Sabrae Clan Marethari's word prevailed, even if many in the clan wanted to move, while in the Virnehn clan important decisions had to be made by the elders, not just the Keeper. TME also introduced the figure of the "warleader".

[Lulupab]

Elves will always need keepers who are mages and it doesn't matter if they are the leader or not. Their lore is wrapped in magic and who is better than mages to understand and gather it? The fact that Keepers are leaders among the Dalish is a matter of convenience. At this moment nothing is more important to them than their lore so the person responsible automatically becomes the most important person.

[A Clever Name]

 

I'm not speaking of education in terms of virtue. I'm speaking of education in terms of knowing what a federation even is. Or concepts of balance of powers, natural rights, sovereignity, and so on. Concepts of governance that seen basic to us but have no real development in Thedas, where 'limited government' means 'unable' to act rather than 'unwilling.'

 

I get that people want to bring in western liberalism and our general culture concept of governmental practices as a cure-all for an enlightened Thedas. We are, after all, educated products of the liberal enlightenment. But anachonisms are a non-starter in Thedas, which has no such liberalism or history of political theory to draw from.

 

Any elf in Thedas who wants to provide the blueprint for Thedasian government should use terms Thedasians might know. No appeals to concepts or anachronisms that have no meaning to them: if you wish to describe it, use terms they will understand.

 

Any elves who want to build a nation in Thedas will be doing so without words like 'Swiss', 'confederation,' 'federal,' 'parliamentary,' 'republic,' 'governmental accountability,' 'elections,' 'fair trade,' 'eminent domain,' and even 'nation-state.'

I agree that it makes sense no such thing would be likely to happen, particularly given the lack of development of political sciences in Thedas.  I conceded as much in my argument - it's why I don't believe it a good idea to create a nation-state at all.  Too many toes to step on.  But that it's impossible is inaccurate.  These concepts we have had to begin somewhere.  We didn't wake up one day and collectively decide these are ideas we could incorporate into the world state.  People develop and cultivate them over time, sometimes without contact from individuals halfway across the world with similar ideas, and convince others of their correctness until they are inextricably linked to how we perceive the world around us.  Individuals can grow up without ideas like this in their communities and still believe in a more idealistic society - surprised to find that what they searched for has been readily available to others.

 

It has to start somewhere.  Who's to say there aren't a few thinkers among them that begin such concepts as natural and civil rights?  They don't have to have the same name to be the same in function.  Certainly I am not in any position to say people's minds are incapable of being the cradle of higher thought and basic human (or, in this case, elven) decency.

 

Not that any of this matters, since I was hypothesizing what I would ideally like to see from an elven nation-state.  It was not meant to accurately reflect the likelihood or capabilities of the elven people in creating such a form of governance.  (In other words I was just doing it for funsies, no need to poke holes in my reveries.  ;P)

 

EDIT:  'd, basically

[Master Warder Z_]

TME also introduced the figure of the "warleader".

 

That dude was a bit of a meanie.

[Master Warder Z_]

I disagree. This would leave the door wide open for another magocracy and we all know how the White Chantry feels about those. The Keepers have there parts to play, but they have to relinquish power once a system is in place.

 

I still say they should serve as a protectorate to Orlais or Nevarra.

[Lulupab]

I disagree. This would leave the door wide open for another magocracy and we all know how the White Chantry feels about those. The Keepers have their parts to play, but they have to relinquish power once a system of governance is in place.

Usually this is true about magocracy. But noble birth is not exactly any better, birthrights almost always fail because there is no guarantee the sons will be as good as their fathers which is why we vote and choose our leaders.

But in case of elves its even more complicated. What if all elves were actually mages, would that be magocracy then? Or will it simply become an Elven court.

Edit: I highly doubt elves will allow a circle/templar system in their new nation. Provided this system still exists by then.

[Master Warder Z_]

Edit: I highly doubt elves will allow a circle/templar system in their new nation. Provided this system still exists by then.

 

They wouldn't have much of a choice presuming they want to be an official and recognized state.

[Mistic]

That dude was a bit of a meanie.

 

Ha, it's understandable, really. What can a warleader do if their people don't go to war? Get bored, I suppose.

 

Usually this is true about magocracy. But noble birth is not exactly any better, birthrights almost always fail because there is no guarantee the sons will be as good as their fathers which is why we vote and choose our leaders.

But in case of elves its even more complicated. What if all elves were actually mages, would that be magocracy then? Or will it simply become an Elven court.

Edit: I highly doubt elves will allow a circle/templar system in their new nation. Provided this system still exists by then.

Who says all elves would be mages? That doesn't have any basis, since so far we haven't seen any proof that the elves were once all mages, and even less reasons to think it may happen now. It would be akin to say "if all humans were mages, Tevinter wouldn't be a magocracy".

 

As for the Templars/Circles, who knows. It depends on the society that appears in the new country. I mean, Fenris would rather have all the mages chained. Isn't he an elf? What would happen if most elves think like him?

[Lulupab]

They wouldn't have much of a choice presuming they want to be an official and recognized state.

There is a "circle" in Anderfels too but not one cares about it because most of the mages join the grey wardens anyway and in case of any incident the grey wardens take care of it instead of templars.

Actually as far as I know its independent from white and imperial chantry both, its a grey warden nation and its like a grey chantry since the grey wardens are both the ruling class and the standing army of Anderfels.

[Nukekitten]

Let's assume that by whatever means, either rebellion or benevolence of human rulers, you have achieved a homeland. It is intended as a refuge for all elves. How would you organise it?

"You all decide as a tribe on someone you respect who's going to be your Elder. When you've got issues, they'll sort them out. If you all have a problem with another group then the Elders will sort it out between ourselves."

The Elves live in tribes, I don't think they've a shot at much else in the short run. Governments have to grow to a certain level of stability and earn certain concepts before you can start designing systems on top of them.

[Lulupab]

Ha, it's understandable, really. What can a warleader do if their people don't go to war? Get bored, I suppose.
 

Who says all elves would be mages? That doesn't have any basis, since so far we haven't seen any proof that the elves were once all mages, and even less reasons to think it may happen now. It would be akin to say "if all humans were mages, Tevinter wouldn't be a magocracy".
 
As for the Templars/Circles, who knows. It depends on the society that appears in the new country. I mean, Fenris would rather have all the mages chained. Isn't he an elf? What would happen if most elves think like him?

Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Its still a possibility.

Fenris is the ONLY elf who hates mages that we have met so far. So its not going to happen. Also the description of Elves in various sources indicates that elves have higher chance of producing mage children and its quite true, there are a lot of elf mages given their population is minority especially in comparison to humans. This could be our link to the Elven past.

[LobselVith8]

Elves will always need keepers who are mages and it doesn't matter if they are the leader or not. Their lore is wrapped in magic and who is better than mages to understand and gather it? The fact that Keepers are leaders among the Dalish is a matter of convenience. At this moment nothing is more important to them than their lore so the person responsible automatically becomes the most important person.

 

Magic is seen very differently among the Dalish than it is by the Andrastians; to the People, magic is a gift of the Creators. I don't think the Dalish would prohibit mages from being among the leaders who represent their interests. I know some here seem to think that it would be bad because of Felassan's comments about how the Dreamers of Arlathan were no different than the nobility of modern Orlais (in ruling over the lesser classes), but the Dalish are the remnants of the Dales, and have drastically different views than the original elven kingdom that was destroyed long ago. 

 

I can imagine that the Keepers and the hahren of the clans could be among the leadership in an independent Dales, along with elven leaders from the Andrastian and Qunari communities who would find sanctuary in the nation, and represent their people.

[Mistic]

There is a "circle" in Anderfels too but not one cares about it because most of the mages join the grey wardens anyway and in case of any incident the grey wardens take care of it instead of templars.

Actually as far as I know its independent from white and imperial chantry both, its a grey warden nation and its like a grey chantry since the grey wardens are both the ruling class and the standing army of Anderfels.

 

What? You are assuming too many things about the Anderfels.

 

Actually, it's stated in World of Thedas and other sources too that the Anderfels is without a doubt the most pious of the Thedosian nations and firm believers of the Chantry (the Orlesian one). There's a king ruling in Hossberg, the capital, and he uses religion to strengthen the authority of his royal tribunals. In fact, when the king decides to murder someone is called "absolution", not "assassination". The influence of religion is prevalent everywhere in the Anderfels, completely opposite to being "independent from white and imperial chantry both".

 

However, because of the darkspawn, royal authority is only felt strongly in the capital. In the remote villages, Grey Wardens are the only ones defending them, so it's true that they hold a lot of power. However, the standing army? Not by far. There are a thousand Wardens present in the Anderfels, the largest number in any Thedosian country, yet inferior in numbers to a large feudal lord's army.

 

Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Its still a possibility.

Fenris is the ONLY elf who hates mages that we have met so far. So its not going to happen. Also the description of Elves in various sources indicates that elves have higher chance of producing mage children and its quite true, there are a lot of elf mages given their population is minority especially in comparison to humans. This could be our link to the Elven past.

 

Fenris is the only CITY elf we have talked about magic in some depth. Dalish, of course, have a different point of view, but it's an important matter since Dalish are inferior in number to the City Elves. Fenris is a good example to break preconceptions because it proves that the People (as Lob would say) aren't a monolithic group and that magic can be considered dangerous by elves too. If Fenris' opinions are in the majority or the minority is something we don't know yet. As you said, after all, absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence.