695 réponses à ce sujet

[Samahl]

When it comes down to the Dalish are nothing like the people you are speaking of, You inflating a fictitious group with a message you find endearing isn't the same as their situation being similar.

Where is my analysis lacking?

[Master Warder Z_]

That would be possible if some of them didn't use real world racism in their remarks about the elves, which happened in the last elven thread.

 

So you have mentioned, by one individual, whom hasn't repeated it here.

 

The impact of a past usage of a slur sort of loses impact, when its repeatedly brought up, when it isn't even happening anymore.

[Hellion Rex]

Analogies must always be lost on you, I'd imagine.

How am I insulting anyone

So the bolded doesn't sound even remotely rude to you?

[TheJediSaint]

That would be possible if some of them didn't use real world racism in their remarks about the elves, which happened in the last elven thread. Quite frankly, this shouldn't have even happened, because this thread wasn't intended to debate the merits of an elven homeland; perhaps the people who don't like the elves can be civil and stop derailing a thread that invited fans of the elves to discuss how they would run a hypothetical elven homeland.

The response to people using real racism is to click the report button on the lower left hand corner and let a mod deal with them.  Accusing everyone who has a contrary opinion of being a racist isn't going help maintain civility or keep the thread on topic. 

[LobselVith8]

Some=1
Perhaps you could try telling them they aren't welcome again?

 

I cited one obscene example. I'm also not sure what's wrong in pointing out that this thread isn't intended for people to express their contempt for the elves.

[Samahl]

So the bolded doesn't sound even remotely rude to you?

No, it doesn't. I'm sorry if it is - I'm not good at judging these things.

[Steelcan]

How am I insulting anyone, and how is my analogy bad? I'm sure this discussion would benefit greatly through specifics.

you are equating disapproval of the (fictional) Dalish with irl prejudice and bigotry against LGBT people

 

cease this baiting

[Master Warder Z_]

Where is my analysis lacking?

 

For one? There are just as many cultures in the world that embrace those of differing orientation, and have throughout history.

 

So the trope of the community swallowing and spewing hateful messaging isn't anymore universal then some backwards ideology of racial superiority.

 

But honestly, i feel uncomfortable discussing this, and i am not going to be involved any further in the discussion of it. 

[Aimi]

It's a microcosm.

 
Firstly: no, it isn't. It is a misleading and actively harmful analogy that makes a total mess out of history and of national communities.

Secondly: it introduces all sorts of extraneous nonsense. Property rights and murder are not even remotely the same thing as ancient inter-state wars whose participants are all long dead. This legal garbage has nothing to do with the moral wrongs that modern elves have to deal with and which should be the sole basis of any argument here.

Finally: it's an obvious attempt to create further bad analogies to real-world situations. That is not only bad because the analogies are bad and because the real-world situations have their own baggage unrelated to elves in Thedas, but it is bad because it is liable to introduce further arguments about those real-world situations that will further derail this thread. Which you subsequently did with that aboriginal American thing.
 

Firstly, This is a thread about an elven homeland in general not about the Dalish specifically, and it was still peppered with anti-elf trolling.

 
That's as maybe, but there are a few problems. Most of the "elf supporters" of the thread title tend to focus almost exclusively on a Dalish viewpoint of the situation, which is a persistent criticism - coming from people who are not "anti-elf trolls" - that is rarely even answered (let alone answered well). Also, and related to the first thing, many of the "elf supporters" respond to all critics as though they are trolls.
 

As per Gervaise's original post (a person who invited elf supporters to discuss an elven homeland) and in addition to what I wrote previously, I'd also imagine my elven protagonist would utilize the lyrium trade for the benefit of an independent elven kingdom, considering how the land of the Dales borders not only Ferelden, but the entrance to Orzammar and access to one of the most valuable substances in the known world.

How would that work in practice?

Would this new elven kingdom (kingdom?) make war on Ferelden to conquer the entrances to Orzammar? Would it attempt to seize the Chantry's extant lyrium supply network?

Why would this be beneficial? Unless this elven state somehow obtains a monopoly over surface-to-Orzammar trade (which seems pretty much impossible on the face of it) it can't jack up prices in the first place, for either side. And if it tries, both the Chantry and the dwarves would have excellent reasons to fight this elven state. Furthermore, one of the primary commodities Orzammar trades lyrium for is food; where would this elven kingdom get enough food to feed the dwarves? Surely a brand-new state developing a fallow forest would have trouble producing enough food for its own needs, let alone those of the dwarves.

It seems to me that an attempt to insert elven intermediaries into the lyrium trade would cause a lot of problems - translation: a lot of dead elves, humans, and dwarves - for virtually no prospect of gain for anyone.

What would make slightly more sense is an attempt to gain access to lyrium in and of itself directly from dwarven suppliers through small-scale smuggling. Which is nice, but pretty much everybody who needs lyrium already does that anyway, so I don't see how that translates to a big boost to elven prosperity.

The devil - so to speak - is in the details.

[LobselVith8]

The response to people using real racism is to click the report button on the lower left hand corner and let a mod deal with them.  Accusing everyone who has a contrary opinion of being a racist isn't going help maintain civility or keep the thread on topic. 

 

That didn't work in the last elven thread when some people invoked real world racism in their contempt for the elves, and the thread ended up getting locked instead of people getting punished.

[TheJediSaint]

No, it doesn't. I'm sorry if it is - I'm not good at judging these things.

Saying I don't understand analogies is condescending at best.  

 

However, what most people really take issue with is accusing people, even indirectly, of being bigots towards real people because they don't like what amounts to a fiction trope.

[Samahl]

you are equating disapproval of the (fictional) Dalish with irl prejudice and bigotry against LGBT people
 
cease this baiting

I used that example specifically to address a poster's claim that the Dalish have a "superiority complex", because I see elven pride in their culture as analogous to LGBTQ+ pride - a way of mitigating the harmful psychological effects an oppressive society can have on a marginalized group. That's all.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I cited one obscene example. I'm also not sure what's wrong in pointing out that this thread isn't intended for people to express their contempt for the DALISH.

 

The Dalish Lob it is contempt for the bloody Dalish and you know it.

[Samahl]

However, what most people really take issue with is accusing people, even indirectly, of being bigots towards real people because they don't like what amounts to a fiction trope.

I was literally asking you a question. I didn't mean to imply anything. I'm sorry that it came off that way.

[avatoc]

Clans would either remain nomadic or settle down (a mix is likely) the settlements would grow into villages and towns and be taxed while the nomads would pay entry fees into cities to be allowed to sell their goods instead. A political center would arise with time and so would trade hubs and fortified cities in turn these would end up becoming counties duchies and so forth a clan council (consisting of the different clan leaders) would start electing a leader for the councils and with the rise of a more centralized goverment a king most likely. The clanleaders would be replaced by a mix of keepers and dukes (assuming they are not both at the same time). Religion would be trickier because it is not simply about culture but also about attractiveness I might be wrong but both the qun and the andrastian faith offers a straightforward view of the world with good and evil reward and punishment which is often superior to the more ambigious and multifaced ways of something like the dalish faith (correct me if I am wrong but it is much like druidism no?) as such it would have to be tolorated but the practitioners would have to be loyal to the country and ties with foreign powers be severed. As the society advanced it would not be unprecedented that the idea of allowing chantries would become a topic and as a solution the introduction of an elvish ecclisiarcial heirarchy and chantry could be introduced, why not the tevinter has their own system and the chantry would probably see it as a means of gaining influence without fighting. Futhermore the development of universities for philosophy (or equivelent) which could help turning foregin ideas into being more elf-like.

 

Human population is another thing I imagine that the land the elves would be given would be fairly unsettled or at least low population local land holding lords or landowners who do not use the lands themeselves could be easily be dispossesed and expeled/killed or be given a portion of it back on a few conditions otherwise farmers would serve a good purpose as they would provide the elves with experience in agriculture that they do not posses meaning that advancing the country and so forth would be quicker and the taxes would be very welcome (of course political influence and land expansion). Unlanded lords could also be usefull (assuming they have the right skills) and either they or their descendants (if they are married) could be forbidden to marry another human (while also giving them expanded rights) thereby absorbing their skills and useful traditions and marginalizing human influence in the long run (this would become a thing for peasents as the elven population grows).

 

As for conquest outside of minor expansions than it is unlikely that it would ever become a viable option all things considered.

[LobselVith8]

How is it different? You think the Dalish are suddenly not going to focus on following 'elven' traditions and religion? You yourself have pointed out how you think them being with Andrastian elves could cause tension due to differing beliefs. Considering the Dales saw that as something worth removing by kicking out missionaries, and the Dalish wanting to be like the Dales, them religiously censoring all non-Dalish beliefs is well within the realm of possibility. 

 

I don't think that would be the case, considering how being Dalish is entirely voluntary. To answer your questions, I've expressed that tensions would naturally arise in the hypothetical scenario where the elves dislodged the Orlesians from the Dales, but I've also stated that I think the Dalish, Andrastian, and Qunari elves could make it work. I said previously that my elven character would, ideally, see representatives from all three main elven groups acting as leaders.

[Steelcan]

I was literally asking you a question. I didn't mean to imply anything. I'm sorry that it came off that way.

you clearly did mean to imply something

 

your implication was "if you don't like the Dales you are analogous to irl bigots who seek to oppress LGBT people"

 

that implication is offensive and unwarranted

[Samahl]

For one? There are just as many cultures in the world that embrace those of differing orientation, and have throughout history.

 
I would think that it was obvious I'm addressing western attitudes towards sexuality, as that is where the pride movement originated.

So the trope of the community swallowing and spewing hateful messaging isn't anymore universal then some backwards ideology of racial superiority.

Internalized racism isn't a "trope". It's what happens when a culture is steeped in racism, and a marginalized group is exposed to it on a regular basis. Black pride is a thing too.

[ShadowLordXII]

That's a good question, though I'd say that a Constitutional Monarchy seems to be a reasonable form of government for an elven homeland.

 

Seeing as that you'll have city elves and dalish in the kingdom with their own beliefs, a constitution (or any agreed upon set of rules) would help to keep inevitable clashes of cultural upbringing in check. Religious tolerance also allows room for dialogue and trying to force people to adopt one state faith is just going to end badly.

 

I can see the elders and clan-heads becoming the "officials" of the homeland while everyone else is given a caste in society that fits their abilities, skills and talents: Warriors; Scouts; Tradesmen; Teachers; Scholars; Craftsmen; Blacksmith; Healers; Medics; Farmers; Laborers; Falconers; Herdsmen; and etc. 

 

They'd likely adopt the dalish mentality concerning mages though blood magic, demonology and other forms of forbidden magic would be restricted.

 

Relations with humans would depend on the human's themselves.

[Steelcan]

Internalized racism isn't a "trope". It's what happens when a culture is steeped in racism, and a marginalized group is exposed to it on a regular basis. Black pride is a thing too.

and the Dalish take pride in their heritage of violence, hatred, and isolation

[Samahl]

you clearly did mean to imply something
 
your implication was "if you don't like the Dales you are analogous to irl bigots who seek to oppress LGBT people"
 
that implication is offensive and unwarranted

I didn't, but it's clear that I won't be able to convince you. I still don't understand how somebody can accept something in real life, but not in a fantasy world.

[TheJediSaint]

I didn't, but it's clear that I won't be able to convince you. I still don't understand how somebody can accept something in real life, but not in a fantasy world.

 

Because dislike of elves is dislike of a fiction trope.  Disliking elves is just like disliking goblins, jedi, or superheros.  It is in no way the equivalent to real world prejudice.

[LobselVith8]

How would that work in practice?

Would this new elven kingdom (kingdom?) make war on Ferelden to conquer the entrances to Orzammar? Would it attempt to seize the Chantry's extant lyrium supply network?

 

In the hypothetical scenario I addressed in direct response to the premise of Gervaise's thread, I imagined the Inquisition and the elven government could step into the vaccum left in the wake of the fractured Chantry losing it's leadership and militant arm.

 

Why would this be beneficial? Unless this elven state somehow obtains a monopoly over surface-to-Orzammar trade (which seems pretty much impossible on the face of it) it can't jack up prices in the first place, for either side. And if it tries, both the Chantry and the dwarves would have excellent reasons to fight this elven state. Furthermore, one of the primary commodities Orzammar trades lyrium for is food; where would this elven kingdom get enough food to feed the dwarves? Surely a brand-new state developing a fallow forest would have trouble producing enough food for its own needs, let alone those of the dwarves.

.

Given how the majority of the population of the Dales is elven, I suspect that the elves wouldn't have difficulty providing food to the dwarves. The mass exodus of humans already leaving the Dales doesn't seem to have penalized the elves already living there, so I'd anticipate their survivial isn't dependent on humans.

 

It seems to me that an attempt to insert elven intermediaries into the lyrium trade would cause a lot of problems - translation: a lot of dead elves, humans, and dwarves - for virtually no prospect of gain for anyone.

What would make slightly more sense is an attempt to gain access to lyrium in and of itself directly from dwarven suppliers through small-scale smuggling. Which is nice, but pretty much everybody who needs lyrium already does that anyway, so I don't see how that translates to a big boost to elven prosperity.

The devil - so to speak - is in the details.

 

Well, once the independent Circle mages become part of the Inquisition, a steady supply of lyrium would be necessary, and the elven mages living in a free Dales would also benefit from the lyrium trade. Given the substantial amount of elves living in the Dales, I envision them assisting the Inquisition with handling the surface trade. 

 

As for your retort, I don't see the point in smuggling given that my hypothetical scenario addressed the emancipation of the Dales (as this thread is focused on the premise of how an elven homeland would be managed), the likely impotent nature of the Chantry due to the cataclysm, and the assistance of the Inquisition (which would be lead by one of the People in my scenario).

[addiction21]

What a shock this thread is...