150 réponses à ce sujet

[ZipZap2000]

Except that the ending clearly shows them rebuilding and not killing. Even under Wreave if Bakara lives you see the females standing up to him and taking charge.

[DeinonSlayer]

Except that the ending clearly shows them rebuilding and not killing. Even under Wreave if Bakara lives you see the females standing up to him and taking charge.

Metagaming, and unrealistic to boot. Their slides keep showing us happy Krogan parents escorting one child per couple, when Patriarch talks wistfully about the days of the horde; of Krogan hatchlings killing each other in the nest.

After the (brief) euphoria of the cure wears off, the Krogan would quickly remember that they're living in a radioactive wasteland which could barely feed them even before their population exploded. By distributing the cure universally, Wrex has undermined his own power base (which was built by attracting the fertile females to his banner). Realistically, they'd break down into internal resource wars, expand to other planets, or both. Their only alternative would be starvation on a massive scale.

The best plan I can come up with, barring reinstituting the genophage (though perhaps in a form which limits the number of eggs in a clutch and ensures their viability instead of piles of stillborn), is to hand them a couple of colonies to work with and quarantine them for however many centuries it takes for their society to stabilize. If you're Krogan, and you haven't been exposed to the cure yet, you're free to go anywhere, live anywhere, but if you go to Tuchanka you stay there until the gates are opened again, if ever.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Metagaming, and unrealistic to boot. Their slides keep showing us happy Krogan parents escorting one child per couple, when Patriarch talks wistfully about the days of the horde; of Krogan hatchlings killing each other in the nest.

After the (brief) euphoria of the cure wears off, the Krogan would quickly remember that they're living in a radioactive wasteland which could barely feed them even before their population exploded. By distributing the cure universally, Wrex has undermined his own power base (which was built by attracting the fertile females to his banner). Realistically, they'd break down into internal resource wars, expand to other planets, or both. Their only alternative would be starvation on a massive scale.

The best plan I can come up with, barring reinstituting the genophage (though perhaps in a form which limits the number of eggs in a clutch and ensures their viability instead of piles of stillborn), is to hand them a couple of colonies to work with and quarantine them for however many centuries it takes for their society to stabilize. If you're Krogan, and you haven't been exposed to the cure yet, you're free to go anywhere, live anywhere, but if you go to Tuchanka you stay there until the gates are opened again, if ever.

 

Hence why I would want to completely quarantine them to their own planet. We don't need the crap caused by their violence to spread anywhere else. 

 

And I really don't believe at all that their society would ever stabilize. It might seem a self-fulfilling prophecy to not trust them at all to the point where all you leave them with is their burned out, irradiated husk of a world to a point where it breeds enmity, but look at what happened last time we rewarded them: They gained a massive sense of entitlement and decided that they had more right to worlds than anyone else.

 

The Krogan have been bred for instability. They remind me of the Targaryen family of ASOIAF, sans the genius. They're all insane. They're either entirely entitled conquerors who think that since they have an ever-exponentially growing population (mixed with their admitted utility as cannon fodder that is unleashed on opposing forces) and thus deserve everything by right, or are incredibly bitter, jealous, and angry to the point of xenophobia of the success of other species that they are motivated to get their own 'rights' by taking them from others. 

 

They're a textbook example of a civilization that never learned restraint. They're more of a virus than a species. 

 

I'd reinstate the genophage and let them squabble over Tuchanka forever. That's the absolute best I'd personally go for. I'd rather just kill them all so the problem never has to be dealt with period.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Metagaming, and unrealistic to boot. Their slides keep showing us happy Krogan parents escorting one child per couple, when Patriarch talks wistfully about the days of the horde; of Krogan hatchlings killing each other in the nest.

After the (brief) euphoria of the cure wears off, the Krogan would quickly remember that they're living in a radioactive wasteland which could barely feed them even before their population exploded. By distributing the cure universally, Wrex has undermined his own power base (which was built by attracting the fertile females to his banner). Realistically, they'd break down into internal resource wars, expand to other planets, or both. Their only alternative would be starvation on a massive scale.

The best plan I can come up with, barring reinstituting the genophage (though perhaps in a form which limits the number of eggs in a clutch and ensures their viability instead of piles of stillborn), is to hand them a couple of colonies to work with and quarantine them for however many centuries it takes for their society to stabilize. If you're Krogan, and you haven't been exposed to the cure yet, you're free to go anywhere, live anywhere, but if you go to Tuchanka you stay there until the gates are opened again, if ever.

 

This is ME3 though, none of that crap ever happened in the past. Instead the Krogan just got a little drunk one night, threw a rager, and the Council totally over reacted.

[congokong]

This topic again? But the answer is no! Bioware intentionally gave an outrageous default birthrate that's doomed to failure and yet have the leader of the krogan potentially be Shepard's buddy Wrex to twist your emotions. When people ask this I post something another poster named PirateMouse once said.

 

Well, since this thread has risen from its grave, I will reiterate my own take on this, which is very similar actually to Dean's: to wit, hell no I wouldn't cure it, and in fact I'd go to the same extreme lengths I went to in order to stop the Reapers to prevent a cure, because it's a similarly galaxy-level threat.  I wouldn't even cure it if krogan culture changed, because honestly I don't care what your culture is like, 1,000 viable births per year times about 1,000 years per krogan female with each offspring living potentially around 1,000 years as well is a recipe for unqualified, unmitigated disaster the likes of which we cannot truly even properly comprehend.

At most, I would consider a reworking of the genophage, but that was never given in-game as an option.  Frankly, I would wipe out every single last krogan before I'd outright cure the genophage if for some reason those were my only two options ... because that would ultimately be a choice between genocide of one species (krogans) or genocide of all non-krogans.

From there, I'll just repost my response to this topic before, which began with my feelings about the Dalatrass:

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.

[DeinonSlayer]

@congokong

 

Well said. They did that a lot over the course of the trilogy. Reminds me of that winceworthy ME1 dialogue if you choose to kill the Rachni queen. No, you're not doing it out of responsibility for the safety of every other species out there, you're doing it for kicks because you're a heartless *******. Same goes for the Geth: if you aren't for them, it must be because you're prejudiced against synthetics.

[congokong]

@congokong

 

Well said. They did that a lot over the course of the trilogy. Reminds me of that winceworthy ME1 dialogue if you choose to kill the Rachni queen. No, you're not doing it out of responsibility for the safety of every other species out there, you're doing it because you're a heartless *******. Same goes for the Geth: if you aren't for them, it must be because you're prejudiced against synthetics.

 

Killing the rachni queen is a no-brainer of similar proportions. Some consider it "evil" but a glimpse of the rachni wars would make this decision so easy. The millions who died trying to stop the rachni's ruthless galactic invasion would want to rip Shepard apart for letting the queen go just like that. But like curing the genophage/not cure, there is no middle ground with the queen. You either kill it or release it. Keeping it in its tank isn't an option.

 

Eh, paragon Shepard is an idealistic idiot. Let the rachni go, divert vital resources to save the council, lower their weapon on Wrex in an armed stand-off. rewrite the geth, destroy the Collector base because "we'll win without it" despite the Reapers' perfect win streak, let the rachni go a second time, and cure the genophage.

[Raizo]

I'm gonna have to go with the majority with this one. If Wrex is alive then yes. If Wrex is dead and Wreave is in charge then no. Wrex himself admits right after he boards the Normandy that the first thing that a lot of Krogan will want to do is get revenge on the Turians and the Salarians, Wrex's leadership is the only thing that prevents the Krogan from continuing their cycle of violence war and destruction.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I'm gonna have to go with the majority with this one. If Wrex is alive then yes. If Wrex is dead and Wreave is in charge then no. Wrex himself admits right after he boards the Normandy that the first thing that a lot of Krogan will want to do is get revenge on the Turians and the Salarians, Wrex's leadership is the only thing that prevents the Krogan from continuing their cycle of violence war and destruction.

 

And as Congo elegantly put it, the only thing keeping Wrex in power was the conglomeration of all the fertile females around him. With that card gone, he technically loses his base. Granted, he is revered as a hero and savior to the Krogan, but how long until that turns on him?

[ZipZap2000]

'Metagaming and unrealistic to boot'

 

You fight giant synthetic space monsters and kill them all with the colour red. How realistic do you seriously want this be?

[Dabrikishaw]

'Metagaming and unrealistic to boot'

 

You fight giant synthetic space monsters and kill them all with the colour red. How realistic do you seriously want this be?

I think it's just more of the same "criticize how Mass Effect 3 was written" beat that every other major plot gets. The Citadel Coup, Geth/Quarian War, Crucible, and Endings all get the same level of critique.

[De1ta0m3ga]

With both Wrex and Eve alive, as well as having saved Maleon's data in ME2, maybe.  Most likely yes.

 

Now, if Wreav were in charge, regardless of if Eve were dead or not, no.  Wrex + Eve could potentially stop the Krogan from rampaging unchecked across the galaxy again, but if Wreav were in charge, the Krogan would certainly begin their conquest of the galaxy anew.  

 

However, one has to factor in the ending you chose.  If you chose synthesis/control, it is assumed the relays are rebuilt, and thus rapid intra-galactic transport is restored.  However, destroying the reapers = destroying the relays, and I think it'd be pretty hard for the Krogan to conquer the Galaxy if they have to go into generation ships (or something similar) to even get to other star systems.  Obviously it doesn't matter if you picked the refusal ending, as everyone dies anyways.

 

TL;DR:

Wrex + Eve + Maleon's Data = Probably Yes

Wreav + Control/Destroy (But with no Eve, Maleon's Data destroyed) = No

Wreav + Destroy/Refusal Ending + Eve + Maleon's Data = Maybe

[KaiserShep]

Except that the ending clearly shows them rebuilding and not killing. Even under Wreave if Bakara lives you see the females standing up to him and taking charge.

 

While this is true, I tend to stay away from that sort of argument for the same reason I wholly reject Synthesis and Control. Sure, the epilogues make them nice and pretty, but that has nothing to do with the decision I have to make before it happens.

 

In any case, screw it. Wrex says "We'd probably win this time", but that sound like more krogan hot air. More than likely a massive population explosion would see a terrible civil war that rages across their own planet long before they can turn their attention to everyone else, and the turians can't really complain since their primarch was part of that deal, so they'd just have to suck it up and figure out a way to deal with it like everyone else. Sounds like a picnic compared to a reaper invasion to me. It would only really become a serious problem if, say, the volus just sell them bunches of ships for sh*ts and giggles.

[Fixers0]

Simple answer is NO, under no circumstances. It makes no sense in ME3 for Victus to even suggest the Krogan would be effective in assisting Palaven. They were on another planet and getting them to the battlefield would only hasten Turian defeat at the hands of the Reapers.

 

Given the situation presented by the Reaper invasion of Palaven. The Reapers have blockaded Palaven almost totally and have strategic control of the approach to the planet.  They have Capital ship strength far in excess of the Turians and there is a bottleneck in the supply link (the Relay). Any fleet of ships carrying the Krogan would have to run this gauntlet with virtually no protection, or would require fleet support from warships; ships that are currently fighting annihilation defending Palaven.

 

Considering Shepard is a human fleet officer. He "should" be aware that the most difficult tasks in strategic fleet warfare are:- prosecuting a seaborne or airborne invasion against an entrenched or blockading force; and convoy protection to allow effective transport, deployment and support the troops with materiel. These are especially difficult when Capital ships are introduced to the battle space on the Enemies side. If you do not have total Superiority in Capital Ship capability, Force domination of secondary screening fleets and Air cover, it is virtually ensured that to land an invasion or relief force in strength would be tantamount to suicide

 

 

It  really shows how poorly the writers thought through  overarching implications of the narrative they designed. the bigger you get in scope, the less the plot makes sense.

 

I really wish there was an option for Shepard to refuse the genophage arc altogheter.

[DeinonSlayer]

It  really shows how poorly the writers thought through  overarching implications of the narrative they designed. the bigger you get in scope, the less the plot makes.

 

I really wish there was an option for Shepard to refuse the genophage arc alltogheter.

Well, then there's this exchange:

 

EDI: Even were they to side with us, transporting the krogan to the battlefields of Palaven could prove difficult. They have been demilitarized--that is, they have no warships.

Shepard: What do you suggest?

EDI: They will need turian or civilian starships to carry them to battle. With your permission, I will make the necessary calls to have these ships in place for when you deliver the krogan.

Shepard: Do it. Anything else?

EDI: Food. They will be unable to eat anything on Palaven. They must bring their own or rely on the nutrients in their humps.

Shepard: This keeps getting better and better.

EDI: The krogan will also require sedatives, since krogan fight with others of their kind in enclosed spaces such as starships.

Shepard: Make it happen. Are there any last things you're worried about?

EDI: Nothing that demands your attention, Shepard.

 

Ships. Food. Sedatives. Where exactly is this all coming from? I'm glad they at least recognized this much in terms of the difficulties of deploying the Krogan, but acknowledging a problem is not the same as fixing it. Given that the Turian fleet is already tasked out and Hackett tells us supply lines are stretched to the breaking point after Tuchanka, it seems to me this deployment is a pipe dream until the Quarian fleet is brought on board to facilitate transport... and that still leaves food and sedatives unaccounted for.

 

Levo species on a dextro planet. Even with the EC, the fate the the Krogan deployed on Palaven who survive until the Crucible fires is decidedly grim.

[Farangbaa]

Let us all ignore the voice of the Krogan females. Lets all assume they are just going to lie down on their backs (or however they do it) and have themselves be fertilized at the whim of the Krogan men.

[Daemul]

Ships. Food. Sedatives. Where exactly is this all coming from? I'm glad they at least recognized this much in terms of the difficulties of deploying the Krogan, but acknowledging a problem is not the same as fixing it. Given that the Turian fleet is already tasked out and Hackett tells us supply lines are stretched to the breaking point after Tuchanka, it seems to me this deployment is a pipe dream until the Quarian fleet is brought on board to facilitate transport... and that still leaves food and sedatives unaccounted for.

 

Thank god you, Alleyd and others also noticed this, because it never made sense to me how throughout the game, we are told that the supplies lines are stretched to the max, yet somehow allied forces are able to pull lots of extra ships, manpower, supplies from out of nowhere. Where is this stuff all coming from? It always makes me raise my eyebrows when Hackett is able to send troops and ships to defend some backwater planet, as if he has loads extra manpower and supplies just sitting there in space doing nothing, no wonder we're getting destroyed.

 

I kid, we would be getting destroyed either way, but still, it just makes our destruction quicker. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Thank god you, Alleyd and others also noticed this, because it never made sense to me how throughout the game, we are told that the supplies lines are stretched to the max, yet somehow allied forces are able to pull lots of extra ships, manpower, supplies from out of nowhere. Where is this stuff all coming from? It always makes me raise my eyebrows when Hackett is able to send troops and ships to defend some backwater planet, as if he has loads extra manpower and supplies just sitting there in space doing nothing, no wonder we're getting destroyed.

 

I kid, we would be getting destroyed either way, but still, it just makes our destruction quicker. 

 

Plus, they manage to gather all the materials needed to make the Crucible. Where are they getting all that stuff from?

[themikefest]

Best thing to do is not recruit Wrex in ME1, have Mordin destroy Maleon's data in ME2, and sabotage the genophage in ME3 letting Mordin live to go help with the Crucible.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Let us all ignore the voice of the Krogan females. Lets all assume they are just going to lie down on their backs (or however they do it) and have themselves be fertilized at the whim of the Krogan men.

 

In general, I ignore Krogan voices period. 

[DeinonSlayer]

Let us all ignore the voice of the Krogan females. Lets all assume they are just going to lie down on their backs (or however they do it) and have themselves be fertilized at the whim of the Krogan men.

The only Krogan female we talk to is Eve. She doesn't speak for her entire gender any more than Wrex does. What's to say only the males would want to breed an army and go to war? Women are just as capable of hatred as men, even if most human cultures restrict them from the battlefield.

Assuming the Krogan females don't share that motivation? The word here is "rape." ISIL has been doing a lot of that.