No, and the reasons have been stated by several people already. Wrex and Eve are not enough to keep the species in check, assuming that's even their intention. Eve talks a lot about the gentle wisdom of peace loving female Krogan, but neither she nor Wrex demonstrate having given a second's thought to the issue of overpopulation which is about the most dangerous thing about the Krogan. The species just wants to expand and consume (as all the species do, but their expansion rate is ridiculous) and if they aren't fighting each other over it, they're fighting someone else. Besides, The traditionalist Krogan get the very same cure Wrex's supporters do, so there's bound to be infighting. As has been said, Wrex undermines his own power base by getting the cure. If the Krogan addressed their many social issues first, then I might cure them, but not before.
Would you cure the genophage?
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#77
Posté 19 août 2014 - 01:00
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No. You ask for too much, OP. Despite everything, morals, ideals, ethics, etc., the choice is not for us to decide. It should be between the Salarians, Turians, and Krogan.
Easy for the salarians to debate about it, since they're sitting pretty at the time. The turians have no such luxury, which is the likeliest reason why the Primarch supports the plan to cure the genophage despite his reservations about a possible resurgence of the krogan. Whomever the choice should truly belong to doesn't really matter anymore, since there's certainly no time to put it to a vote. Besides, the Primarch is the one that started this whole deal with the krogan anyway, and even pressures the Dalatrass into giving up the location of the females.
As for all this undermining Wrex's power base stuff, what's the difference at that point? With their atmosphere being poisoned and a sustained battle that can last for months being likely, there's a good chance that there won't be a viable population to establish a power base with anyway.
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#78
Posté 19 août 2014 - 07:46
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Easy for the salarians to debate about it, since they're sitting pretty at the time. The turians have no such luxury, which is the likeliest reason why the Primarch supports the plan to cure the genophage despite his reservations about a possible resurgence of the krogan. Whomever the choice should truly belong to doesn't really matter anymore, since there's certainly no time to put it to a vote. Besides, the Primarch is the one that started this whole deal with the krogan anyway, and even pressures the Dalatrass into giving up the location of the females.
As for all this undermining Wrex's power base stuff, what's the difference at that point? With their atmosphere being poisoned and a sustained battle that can last for months being likely, there's a good chance that there won't be a viable population to establish a power base with anyway.
You can add some desperation to the human side of the equation too. Shep's there trying to get turian help for humanity, initially anyway. How much bargaining room can he afford?
#79
Posté 19 août 2014 - 07:55
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The only Krogan female we talk to is Eve. She doesn't speak for her entire gender any more than Wrex does. What's to say only the males would want to breed an army and go to war? Women are just as capable of hatred as men, even if most human cultures restrict them from the battlefield.
Assuming the Krogan females don't share that motivation? The word here is "rape." ISIL has been doing a lot of that.
Which is why they have their seperate clans.
And even if the females go along with males and start popping out baby Krogans by the thousands, or they are mass raped, it would be irrelevant. The Krogan have no ships. They need other species to get off the planet(s) they are on. At the slightest notion of a resurgence of the Krogan Rebellions, the other species just don't send ships to their planets anymore and they're left to fend for themselves. 'Problem' solved.
There's zero risk here. At worse, they destroy themselves.
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#80
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:11
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Easy for the salarians to debate about it, since they're sitting pretty at the time. The turians have no such luxury, which is the likeliest reason why the Primarch supports the plan to cure the genophage despite his reservations about a possible resurgence of the krogan. Whomever the choice should truly belong to doesn't really matter anymore, since there's certainly no time to put it to a vote. Besides, the Primarch is the one that started this whole deal with the krogan anyway, and even pressures the Dalatrass into giving up the location of the females.
As for all this undermining Wrex's power base stuff, what's the difference at that point? With their atmosphere being poisoned and a sustained battle that can last for months being likely, there's a good chance that there won't be a viable population to establish a power base with anyway.
This ties back into the problems with the take back Earth campaign, but who cares? A ground offensive isn't going to win back Palaven, the Turian fleets aren't going to take back Earth. The goal is to build the Crucible and the Salarians are probably the most helpful for accomplishing that goal. In exchange for not bothering Shepard could probably secure Salarian assets, just like he would for sabotaging the cure.
#81
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:13
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Which is why they have their seperate clans.
And even if the females go along with males and start popping out baby Krogans by the thousands, or they are mass raped, it would be irrelevant. The Krogan have no ships. They need other species to get off the planet(s) they are on. At the slightest notion of a resurgence of the Krogan Rebellions, the other species just don't send ships to their planets anymore and they're left to fend for themselves. 'Problem' solved.
There's zero risk here. At worse, they destroy themselves.
Until they work on rebuilding their own ships. The Krogan are just smart enough to start figuring out how to turn their own problems at large into problems with everyone else in the galaxy.
#82
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:24
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Yes, I'd cure it. It was a war crime. That's all I need to know. The proper question to ask about consequences is "how do we mitigate them?" but it doesn't inform my beliefs about the genophage.
#83
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:27
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Yes, I'd cure it. It was a war crime. That's all I need to know. The proper question to ask about consequences is "how do we mitigate them?" but it doesn't inform my beliefs about the genophage.
There's no such thing as a war crime. Only what the winner decides is criminal or not. I find the view that taking a willfully ignorant stance on extenuating circumstances is rather naive. Would you rather see the galaxy burn if it meant maintaining moral integrity? I know your answer is yes, but is it really moral to see people suffer and die because their leaders were too honorable or moral to consider stopping the threat to them?
#84
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:36
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You need to have an answer to "how do we mitigate the consequences" before embarking upon a scheme with potentially massive consequences - unless the immediate issues are so dire that dealing with the future problems when they arise is the lesser evil (which IMO it is in the case of the Reaper war, but wouldn't be under any other circumstances). I really, really would've liked to have put these points to Wrex and Eve though.Yes, I'd cure it. It was a war crime. That's all I need to know. The proper question to ask about consequences is "how do we mitigate them?" but it doesn't inform my beliefs about the genophage.
#85
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:41
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Plus, they manage to gather all the materials needed to make the Crucible. Where are they getting all that stuff from?
Not only that, but in a war where supplies and manpower are stretched to the max, how the hell are soldiers able to go on shore leave?
You see, this is part of a larger problem with the overall writing in Mass Effect 3, in that Bioware wrote the Reapers as if they were a traditional foe, when it was not the case. The Reapers are not your traditional enemy, they do not eat, they do not sleep, they do not need rest, they have no supply lines which can be cut off, they have an unlimited amount of ground forces and they are utterly relentless in their advance. They can keep pushing, day and night, 24/7, constantly pushing forward and never giving an inch, instantly wiping out whole platoons as they go, and somehow the allied forces are able to send troops away for a week to party and get wasted?!
Bioware, c'mon now son.
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#86
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:45
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There's no such thing as a war crime. Only what the winner decides is criminal or not. I find the view that taking a willfully ignorant stance on extenuating circumstances is rather naive. Would you rather see the galaxy burn if it meant maintaining moral integrity? I know your answer is yes, but is it really moral to see people suffer and die because their leaders were too honorable or moral to consider stopping the threat to them?
Yes, I would see the galaxy burn. Survival is secondary to moral principle. The game has a tendency to confuse "icky" with "immoral," so it doesn't actually come up for me in the context of ME.
#87
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:45
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Don't let your soldiers have a break and you'll pretty soon end up with soldiers unfit to fight. The idea that the Normandy might need a bit of maintainence isn't unreasonable either.Not only that, but in a war where supplies and manpower are stretched to the max, how the hell are soldiers able to go on shore leave?
You see, this is part of a larger problem with the overall writing in Mass Effect 3, in that Bioware wrote the Reapers as if they were a traditional foe, when it was not the case. The Reapers are not your traditional enemy, they do not eat, they do not sleep, they do not need rest, they have no supply lines which can be cut off, they have an unlimited amount of ground forces and they are utterly relentless in their advance. They can keep pushing, day and night, 24/7, constantly pushing forward and never giving an inch, instantly wiping out whole platoons as they go, and somehow the allied forces are able to send troops away for a week to party and get wasted?!
Bioware, c'mon now son.
#88
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:48
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A course of action that results in the galaxy burning is immoral.Yes, I would see the galaxy burn. Survival is secondary to moral principle. The game has a tendency to confuse "icky" with "immoral," so it doesn't actually come up for me in the context of ME.
#89
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:50
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Yes, I would see the galaxy burn. Survival is secondary to moral principle. The game has a tendency to confuse "icky" with "immoral," so it doesn't actually come up for me in the context of ME.
And what if survival is the moral principle? What if the people suffering and burning don't share your moral principle? What, do you think your moral principle amounts to something that is greater than the sum of every other existence?
#90
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:51
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A course of action that results in the galaxy burning is immoral.
I'd argue that any morality that constitutes letting the galaxy burn for the sake of moral principle is immoral.
'There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man'
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#91
Posté 19 août 2014 - 05:53
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Yes, agree with that.I'd argue that any morality that constitutes letting the galaxy burn for the sake of moral principle is immoral.
#92
Posté 19 août 2014 - 06:00
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Don't let your soldiers have a break and you'll pretty soon end up with soldiers unfit to fight. The idea that the Normandy might need a bit of maintainence isn't unreasonable either.
That's the thing, your soldiers are taking breaks whilst your enemy isn't, every time you take men away from the fight you give up more and more ground which will be impossible to take back because the Reapers are so persistent in their assault. It is something you cannot afford to do, which is why the Reapers are such a formidable foe, because they push their enemies to the point of exhaustion and then round them up to be taken away and processed, whilst at the same time continuing their push forward, all without breaking their stride.
They truly are awesome.
#93
Posté 19 août 2014 - 06:02
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That's the thing, your soldiers are taking breaks whilst your enemy isn't, every time you take men away from the fight you give up more and more ground which will be impossible to take back because the Reapers are so persistent in their assault. It is something you cannot afford to do, which is why the Reapers are such a formidable foe, because they push their enemies to the point of exhaustion and then round them up to be taken away and processed, whilst at the same time continuing their push forward, all without breaking their stride.
They truly are awesome.
And people get upset when you need to resort to extreme methods to beat them. They think they can win with their honor and integrity and morality intact.
Any honor, integrity, and morality that is shattered by the actions of war, especially this kind of war, is a useless system.
#94
Posté 19 août 2014 - 06:04
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You can afford to do it because you can't afford not to. Breaks aren't a luxury, they're a necessity if you want to fight at the best of your ability. It's no different from having to stop using your hardware every now and then for a bit of maintenance. If you don't do the maintenance it'll break down and leave you screwed even quicker.That's the thing, your soldiers are taking breaks whilst your enemy isn't, every time you take men away from the fight you give up more and more ground which will be impossible to take back because the Reapers are so persistent in their assault. It is something you cannot afford to do, which is why the Reapers are such a formidable foe, because they push their enemies to the point of exhaustion and then round them up to be taken away and processed, whilst at the same time continuing their push forward, all without breaking their stride.
They truly are awesome.
You can sacrifice the breaks and maintainence only if the war is going to be short.
#95
Posté 19 août 2014 - 06:26
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Until they work on rebuilding their own ships. The Krogan are just smart enough to start figuring out how to turn their own problems at large into problems with everyone else in the galaxy.
Which you can see coming from miles away. You can take appropriate action if necessary. Invite them to sign up for the treaty of Farixen (making the ratio 10:6:2:1, where 1 is the Krogan). They decline? You take down their factories.
They keep pressuring for a fleet? You nuke one of their planets from orbit.
Keeping the genophage in place serves no purpose other than to prevent something that might happen. Something that you can avoid from happening even in they try. The Krogan aren't Cerberus who can magically pop out a fleet rivaling the rest of the galaxy.
#96
Posté 19 août 2014 - 06:32
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Which you can see coming from miles away. You can take appropriate action if necessary. Invite them to sign up for the treaty of Farixen (making the ratio 10:6:2:1, where 1 is the Krogan). They decline? You take down their factories.
They keep pressuring for a fleet? You nuke one of their planets from orbit.
I'd rather they had no say whatsoever. It'll just be trite contrarianism, and they have the rage to go ahead and attack, even when odds are stacked against them. I wouldn't even encourage their sense of entitlement by giving them another planet. They can have Tuchanka. The Krogan are barbaric enough to attack with a small enough force. They'd take their dreadnought and slog it towards other species. There's no purpose to giving them any more power than their clans. Even that's too much.
#97
Posté 19 août 2014 - 06:57
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I'd rather they had no say whatsoever. It'll just be trite contrarianism, and they have the rage to go ahead and attack, even when odds are stacked against them. I wouldn't even encourage their sense of entitlement by giving them another planet. They can have Tuchanka. The Krogan are barbaric enough to attack with a small enough force. They'd take their dreadnought and slog it towards other species. There's no purpose to giving them any more power than their clans. Even that's too much.
Which dreadnought? They have none. They have no factories to produce one. And even if they had factories, I doubt they'd know how to build one without help.
But assume they do: the Salarians (or anyone else really.. everybody's going to spy the hell out of Tuchanka) would know they are gonna build one before the first metal plates are put together. You can then take appropriate action, which is what you see in the real world almost every day: you talk to them, they talk back, you don't like it, you drop an airstrike on the factory and you talk some more.
There's really no need to keep them neutered. They have an abysmal position in that they can't produce anything resembling a fleet without you knowing they will before it's finished. You can take immediate action, they have to build a fleet. You still hold all the power after you cure them.
There's really zero risk here.
#98
Posté 19 août 2014 - 07:04
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And if you picked control you just roll the Reapers over their planet(s) 
#99
Posté 19 août 2014 - 07:16
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It doesn't make any sense why the krogan would want a genophage cure unless they planned on expanding to other planets. 1000 eggs per clutch is simply a ridiculous number, and if the krogan were confined to Tuchanka, it would take a couple of generations for it to be completely depleted just like the Drell homeworld Rakhana due to massive overpopulation.
With the Genophage, krogan live in a wasteland (that they have created due to their own nihilistic tendencies) with a reasonable population growth rate. Without it, they live in an overpopulated, resource depleted wasteland fighting over mouthfuls of water and scraps of food, or they go off trying to conquer other planets and endangering every other species in the galaxy.
I wish there was an option to explain to Wrex and the krogan why population control is necessary for them and have them listen, but the genophage arc gets the same dualistic, ham fisted treatment as everything else in ME3. Cure=good sabotage=bad ignores that the cure option results in a far worse fate for the krogan. At least under the Genophage, they don't go extinct due to overpopulation or being exterminated in a war of expansion.
#100
Posté 19 août 2014 - 08:15
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It doesn't make any sense why the krogan would want a genophage cure unless they planned on expanding to other planets. 1000 eggs per clutch is simply a ridiculous number, and if the krogan were confined to Tuchanka, it would take a couple of generations for it to be completely depleted just like the Drell homeworld Rakhana due to massive overpopulation.
With the Genophage, krogan live in a wasteland (that they have created due to their own nihilistic tendencies) with a reasonable population growth rate. Without it, they live in an overpopulated, resource depleted wasteland fighting over mouthfuls of water and scraps of food, or they go off trying to conquer other planets and endangering every other species in the galaxy.
I wish there was an option to explain to Wrex and the krogan why population control is necessary for them and have them listen, but the genophage arc gets the same dualistic, ham fisted treatment as everything else in ME3. Cure=good sabotage=bad ignores that the cure option results in a far worse fate for the krogan. At least under the Genophage, they don't go extinct due to overpopulation or being exterminated in a war of expansion.
I'd love to see them go on a war of expansion without space ships. But hey, this is Mass Effect, some space magic isn't strange 
If you cure the Genophage the Krogan have only one option: control their population. They can do this consciously by restricting their birth rate, or as a side effect by going to war with each other.
There is zero risk for the other species.
