518 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Actually, the children are raised in Chantry orphanages with all of the other children without parents. The Chantry doesn't have any more claim on them than all the other children with nowhere else to go. If they show a talent for magic, as many children of mages do, they go to the Circle like any other mage. Nowhere is is said that such children are made property, or treated any differently than any other orphan.

 

Source: DA: Asunder, when Rhys reminisces on his background.

 

True....

 

but those orphans, as Alistair points out, have their choices made for them. Alistair didn't want to be a templar, but that was a path chosen for him by the Chantry. The revered mother at the tower Wynne talks about says she didn't really have a choice. Wynne says many are given to the Chantry, not just mages, and they are raised to be brothers or sisters in the faith, or to be templars. 

 

If they aren't chantry property, they most certainly don't leave the Chantry either. 

[themageguy]

We need....Fairytail

But seriously, CastonFolarus, you have created an excellent basis upon which a reformed order can be built on.

[HiroVoid]

True....

 

but those orphans, as Alistair points out, have their choices made for them. Alistair didn't want to be a templar, but that was a path chosen for him by the Chantry. The revered mother at the tower Wynne talks about says she didn't really have a choice. Wynne says many are given to the Chantry, not just mages, and they are raised to be brothers or sisters in the faith, or to be templars. 

 

If they aren't chantry property, they most certainly don't leave the Chantry either. 

Pretty sure that's just how common Thedas is.  A farmer's child is raised with the expectation s/he'll be a farmer someday.  A merchant expects her child to succeed her.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Funny how that works,Lambert completely went beyond the bounds of his role as far as I'm concerned.He was supposed to keep the Templars in check not take it upon himself to do their job for them.

Agreed. Personally I blame him for the Mage-Templar War and that the reason the Seekers never did anything to Kirkwall was because of his orders. He may be one of those Agents of Chaos that Bioware occasionally refer to. 

[dragonflight288]

Pretty sure that's just how common Thedas is.  A farmer's child is raised with the expectation s/he'll be a farmer someday.  A merchant expects her child to succeed her.

 

Sten: No one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. Your merchants wish to be nobles. Your nobles wish to be soldiers. 

 

There is room for advancement or changing your station, limited as it is by a more medieval setting, but the options for advancement are there. 

[cjones91]

Agreed. Personally I blame him for the Mage-Templar War and that the reason the Seekers never did anything to Kirkwall was because of his orders. He may be one of those Agents of Chaos that Bioware occasionally refer to. 

I hope we find out his fate in DA:I,if he survived against Cole.

[TK514]

True....

 

but those orphans, as Alistair points out, have their choices made for them. Alistair didn't want to be a templar, but that was a path chosen for him by the Chantry. The revered mother at the tower Wynne talks about says she didn't really have a choice. Wynne says many are given to the Chantry, not just mages, and they are raised to be brothers or sisters in the faith, or to be templars. 

 

If they aren't chantry property, they most certainly don't leave the Chantry either. 

 

I'm pretty sure Alistair's path into the Chantry was chosen by Eamon and Isolde.  He wasn't 'given' to the Chantry like a loaf of bread, he was sent there in the same fashion Sebastian was.

[Cainhurst Crow]

True....

 

but those orphans, as Alistair points out, have their choices made for them. Alistair didn't want to be a templar, but that was a path chosen for him by the Chantry. The revered mother at the tower Wynne talks about says she didn't really have a choice. Wynne says many are given to the Chantry, not just mages, and they are raised to be brothers or sisters in the faith, or to be templars. 

 

If they aren't chantry property, they most certainly don't leave the Chantry either. 

 

You're not describing slavery or servitude.

 

You're describing raising a kid.

 

You don't give a kid the ability to self-determine a lot because kids are stupid and will make dumb decisions. They'll eat horrible food, have the hygiene of a homeless person, and trash their living area worse then a hoarder.

 

Parents make choices for kids because kids can't make good choices while they'll kid. Come on man, this ain't that hard to figure out.

[SnakeCode]

I think that the seekers are in need of a reform if anything. The templars have a few few bad eggs amongst their ranks but on the whole I think they do their job rather well.

 

The seekers however, have not been policing the templars nearly as well as they should (leading to said bad eggs having the freedom to do as they please with less fear of being reprimanded.

[SnakeCode]

Agreed. Personally I blame him for the Mage-Templar War and that the reason the Seekers never did anything to Kirkwall was because of his orders. He may be one of those Agents of Chaos that Bioware occasionally refer to. 

Anders, Fiona and especially Adrian were far more integral to the start of the Mage-Templar war than Lambert. Heck, even The Divine, Meredith, and Orsino played a bigger part in the beginning of the conflict.

[ManOfSteel]

Wow, just when I thought your views couldn't sink any lower you surprise me. Marvelous.

Know that I respect your viewpoint on the Templar/Mage situation....

Also know that your Templar order can drop dead.

They're a fictional order. People need to learn not to get their knickers in such a twist when discussing fictional entities.

[Nukekitten]

If you were to change the templar order how would you do it and why?

Procedurally?

- I'd have the mages and templars eat meals together - intermixed tables, not one table for templars and one for mages.

- I'd have a portion of time wherein the mages and templars were scheduled to do things they had nothing to do with being mages and templars together - art or farming or something.

- I'd have the templars not wear armour in the tower on a regular basis.

- I'd have at least 20% of any group that goes out to hunt blood mages be mages.

- I'd have the seats of power for higher ranked people moved into the towers and deny them their own floor or what have you for their organisation. Having decisions concerning this sort of thing made miles away by someone who may never have been in a tower and is separated from the day to day goings on doesn't seem particularly wise.

- Implement some decent policing metrics. Someone who has a high incidence of blood mages in their area or what have you ought to be getting put under investigation and possibly fired, not congratulated for the use of force necessary to restrain them.

Okay, why?

It seems to me that the towers have a bad effect in that even within them the mages and templars are highly segregated. When your entire life is defined as controlling the mages, and you know nothing about the mages and their lives other than that they're dangerous... what did you think was going to happen?

I suspect that things would be far less abusive if they actually had to get to know one another, had some other source of interest than mutual enmity, and that mages would be far less likely to turn to mischief if they had something to do other than sit around the circle being oppressed.

Immediately?

Well, immediately there'd have to be a fair number of firings. One would have to set up a decent intelligence network to find who wasn't doing their job well and who was. Clean the house, so to speak.
 

You're not describing slavery or servitude.
 
You're describing raising a kid.
 
You don't give a kid the ability to self-determine a lot because kids are stupid and will make dumb decisions. They'll eat horrible food, have the hygiene of a homeless person, and trash their living area worse then a hoarder.
 
Parents make choices for kids because kids can't make good choices while they'll kid. Come on man, this ain't that hard to figure out.

You can raise a kid in many ways, and some of that requires a certain degree of control. However, crippling their long term ability to make choices about their life, to become their own person as they grow, is abuse.

[BloodKaiden]

They're a fictional order. People need to learn not to get their knickers in such a twist when discussing fictional entities.

As I said in my post I respect his views, the templars he was suggesting can just drop dead in my eyes. There is no anger, no offense meant, I don't have my knickers in a twist. Apologies if my blunt statements are taken the wrong way. Just my opinion nothing more, nothing less.

[The Baconer]

Which is strange since I swear he is supposed to be acting as a Seeker, not a Templar. 

 

The Seekers of Truth being led by an under-qualified guard dog. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Jukaga]

 

They shall submit to the Qun.

 

How anyone can actually like those joyless communist troll-men is beyond me. A civilization built on mindless conformity, military domination and religious fundamentalism. Yay. Basically the Qunari is the high functioning North Korea of the DA setting, with Juche and all.

[dragonflight288]

I'm pretty sure Alistair's path into the Chantry was chosen by Eamon and Isolde.  He wasn't 'given' to the Chantry like a loaf of bread, he was sent there in the same fashion Sebastian was.

 

And Sebastian ended up becoming a brother. 

 

I know it was ultimately his choice, but we don't know if Eamon or Isolde had anything to do with Alistair becoming a templar. I know he was given to the Chantry, and Alistair and Wynne both give dialogue on how those given to the Chantry have their choices made for them, from Alistair's personal experience to Wynne telling us of the revered mother who was given to the chantry as a girl and was raised to be a sister, and her choices were made for her as well. 

 

As it stands, at least from my perspective, the Chantry doesn't offer a lot of choices to anyone given to it to be raised. 

 

I can at leas respect them taking in orphans, seeing to all their material needs, providing a make-shift family and so on. From children given to the Chantry to be raised by poor farmers who can't afford to raise their children themselves to children orphaned by violent action, I have absolutely no problem with the Chantry taking them in. 

 

I do have a problem with the chantry taking the children of mages away simply because the parent was a mage, and may even be married with the Chantry's permission. 

 

Family is very important to me in real life, and I cannot condone breaking up families if it can be avoided, as is done to all circle mages, who are often forbidden from getting married, sometimes forbidden from even having relations, and always forbidden to have children. If the Chantry has the resources to raise the child of a mage in a monastery, then they should also have the resources to raise the child in a Circle with its parents right there too. 

 

I would be a lot more understanding if the Chantry told mages they could only have a certain number of children due to resource constraints, but as it stands, the mages simply have their children taken away by the chantry, because we are told in dialogue that every circle mage's child belongs to the chantry. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Which is strange since I swear he is supposed to be acting as a Seeker, not a Templar. 

 

He was a former templar of the Imperium, he became a Seeker upon coming to Thedas.

 

He is a representative of both groups.

 

Not to mention defacto commander of both of them as well.

[Master Warder Z_]

And Sebastian ended up becoming a brother. 

 

I know it was ultimately his choice, but we don't know if Eamon or Isolde had anything to do with Alistair becoming a templar. I know he was given to the Chantry, and Alistair and Wynne both give dialogue on how those given to the Chantry have their choices made for them, from Alistair's personal experience to Wynne telling us of the revered mother who was given to the chantry as a girl and was raised to be a sister, and her choices were made for her as well. 

 

As it stands, at least from my perspective, the Chantry doesn't offer a lot of choices to anyone given to it to be raised. 

 

And yet there isn't anything to suggest that you cannot merely be affirmed and take no further vows and be free to leave when you, yourself decide.

 

The fact people would even INFER this is in anyway shape of form chattel bondage is absurd.

[dragonflight288]

He was a former templar of the Imperium, he became a Seeker upon coming to Thedas.

 

He is a representative of both groups.

 

Not to mention defacto commander of both of them as well.

 

Well, yes and no. 

 

He was a templar in Tevinter, but during the events of Asunder, he is not only a Seeker, but he is the Lord High Seeker. His position doesn't have him represent the templar order at all. His job description is to oversee the templars, make sure they're doing their jobs, and punish them when they abuse their authority.

 

When he dismissed that Templar in command in Asunder, what he should've done is look at the Knight-Captains and Knight-Commanders in the local area and choose one to replace the guy he dismissed, not take his job himself. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Seekers of Truth being led by an under-qualified guard dog. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

Under qualified? Seekers are often taken from senior templars if not trained by the seekers themselves if DOS is anything to go by.

 

Not to mention, i doubt you would come from Tevinter, pledge yourself to the white chantry, be in their service presumably for decades and then become the highest ranking of their order and still be construed as "unqualified".

[dragonflight288]

And yet there isn't anything to suggest that you cannot merely be affirmed and take no further vows and be free to leave when you, yourself decide.

 

The fact people would even INFER this is in anyway shape of form chattel bondage is absurd.

 

If you seek to dismiss what I said, then provide evidence that runs counter to the in-game discussion I already posted and referenced. 

 

Jedi Master of Orion did this when he brought up Rhys' background in Asunder, and that is a good blow against my argument. But simply dismissing my argument and calling what I infer based on what I see and hear in the game as absurd ultimately does nothing than appeal to the sentiments of those who already share them with you.

 

Let's try to keep this both friendly and respectful. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, yes and no. 

 

He was a templar in Tevinter, but during the events of Asunder, he is not only a Seeker, but he is the Lord High Seeker. His position doesn't have him represent the templar order at all. His job description is to oversee the templars, make sure they're doing their jobs, and punish them when they abuse their authority.

 

I don't recall stating, he represented both in any official capacity, but he is formed by his past as a templar as surely as his experience has been tempered being a Seeker, So don't infer anything from a statement was quite clear in it's intent.

 

When he dismissed that Templar in command in Asunder, what he should've done is look at the Knight-Captains and Knight-Commanders in the local area and choose one to replace the guy he dismissed, not take his job himself. 

 

Should have? Whom are you to question the Lord Seeker? Besides that the situation was unique, a occurrence you seem to be forgetting, there was a murderer on the loose, tensions were coming to a boil and he came to investigate, and given that Seekers are often sent after particularly dangerous apostates and abominations, i can see why it would interest him.

 

He didn't overstep anything by doing his job.

 

Beyond that, There was nothing to indicate that once the situation was resolved, he wouldn't have departed.

 

He even commented as such to the knight captain, he gave hints of her getting a promotion.

[Master Warder Z_]

If you seek to dismiss what I said, then provide evidence that runs counter to the in-game discussion I already posted and referenced. 

 

 

You mean your stance on a statement? Lets not pretend tis anything more then that.

 

It's an interpretation on wording.

[dragonflight288]

I don't recall stating, he represented both in any official capacity, but he is formed by his past as a templar as surely as his experience has been tempered being a Seeker, So don't infer anything from a statement was quite clear in it's intent.

 

 

Should have? Whom are you to question the Lord Seeker? Besides that the situation was unique, a occurrence you seem to be forgetting, there was a murderer on the loose, tensions were coming to a boil and he came to investigate, and given that Seekers are often sent after particularly dangerous apostates and abominations, i can see why it would interest him.

 

He didn't overstep anything by doing his job.

 

Beyond that, There was nothing to indicate that once the situation was resolved, he wouldn't have departed.

 

He even commented as such to the knight captain, he gave hints of her getting a promotion.

 

It was clear in the phrase's intent, sure, but I see things like this: If a man is acting in the capacity of a seeker, then at that moment, he only represents the Seekers. If Cullen, who is a templar is acting, then he is acting as a representative of  the templars. He cannot act as a representative of the Seekers because he is not one. And because Lambert, who used to be a templar is no longer one, cannot act as a representative of the templars. And since he is the head of the Seekers, then this applies even more so, and to a much higher standard than it would for Cassandra. 

 

Leaders should always be held to a higher standard than their subordinates because they, by their positions, represent everything that their order should stand for. 

 

And that's why Lambert should not have been trying to act like a templar at all from my perspective. 

 

And yes, he did give hints of a promotion, but he didn't outright promote anyone. When a leader of a country, military order, or whatnot is killed or deposed, the first order of business is too always replace them so as to prevent chaos. 

 

That is why I feel like Lambert should've replaced the templar he dismissed as soon as possible. The fact that he did not, and that even after Rhys, Wynne, Evangeline and Pharamond get back to the White Tower an he is still in charge, shows me that appointing a worthy successor and getting himself out of business of templars was not exactly high on his priority list. 

[Master Warder Z_]

It was clear in the phrase's intent, sure, but I see things like this: If a man is acting in the capacity of a seeker, then at that moment, he only represents the Seekers. If Cullen, who is a templar is acting, then he is acting as a representative of  the templars. He cannot act as a representative of the Seekers because he is not one. And because Lambert, who used to be a templar is no longer one, cannot act as a representative of the templars. And since he is the head of the Seekers, then this applies even more so, and to a much higher standard than it would for Cassandra. 

 

Leaders should always be held to a higher standard than their subordinates because they, by their positions, represent everything that their order should stand for. 

 

And that's why Lambert should not have been trying to act like a templar at all from my perspective. 

 

So basically this is what i gathered from this: He isn't a Templar anymore, so he cannot act as their representative, Fair enough but he is their representative, You taking issue with what is in essence the highest authority figure known to either organization, separate and yet connected as they may, acting as if he doesn't authority over templars would interfere with his duties.

 

Beyond that.

 

He wasn't acting like a Templar, He was acting Lord Seeker.

 

Beyond, that you seem to be missing the point and continuing with this regardless, I stated he was shaped by his past as a Templar.

 

 

 

And yes, he did give hints of a promotion, but he didn't outright promote anyone. When a leader of a country, military order, or whatnot is killed or deposed, the first order of business is too always replace them so as to prevent chaos. 

 

Lambert was acting Commander at the time, and given his position it isn't as if he isn't used to commanding people.

 

So there isn't any power vacuum to fill.

 

 

That is why I feel like Lambert should've replaced the templar he dismissed as soon as possible. The fact that he did not, and that even after Rhys, Wynne, Evangeline and Pharamond get back to the White Tower an he is still in charge, shows me that appointing a worthy successor and getting himself out of business of templars was not exactly high on his priority list. 

 

You mean after being told by the Divine to grant the mages conclave? After research into something best left untouched was brought to light? Not to mention the murderer still free? His original purpose there was still unaccomplished. So you are inferring, that him remaining despite his task not being done, and several new issues coming to a head he should have departed anyway?