518 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

So basically this is what i gathered from this: He isn't a Templar anymore, so he cannot act as their representative, Fair enough but he is their representative, You taking issue with what is in essence the highest authority figure known to either organization, separate and yet connected as they may, acting as if he doesn't authority over templars would interfere with his duties.

 

Beyond that.

 

He wasn't acting like a Templar, He was acting Lord Seeker.

 

Beyond, that you seem to be missing the point and continuing with this regardless, I stated he was shaped by his past as a Templar.

 

 

 

 

Lambert was acting Commander at the time, and given his position it isn't as if he isn't used to commanding people.

 

So there isn't any power vacuum to fill.

 

 

 

You mean after being told by the Divine to grant the mages conclave? After research into something best left untouched was brought to light? Not to mention the murderer still free? His original purpose there was still unaccomplished. So you are inferring, that him remaining despite his task not being done, and several new issues coming to a head he should have departed anyway?

 

He was shaped by his past as a templar, yes, and one in Tevinter, which gives him even more sympathy when it comes to his view on mages. 

 

But it is my opinion that because he no longer is one also means that he shouldn't try to behave like one. Yes, he was shaped by his experiences. We all are, and we all have different perspectives because of those experiences. But as the leader of the Seekers, it was no longer his job to police mages. At all. His job should only have been with the templars. Someone of his rank and station, he could easily have had another Seeker run things while he searched for a replacement. He could have easily picked someone who shared his own values and because of the military order and chain-of-command that Seekers and Templars are, it would've been perfectly legitimate. 

 

The simply fact that he does not, and takes the job himself, seems to me personally as an abuse of authority aimed towards giving him even more authority. While he was in that position, not only was he in command of the Seekers and Templars, who could directly interact and deal with the mages personally.

 

We do agree that there was no power vacuum to fill, but it is my opinion that there isn't one simply because Lambert filled it himself when he ought not have as the Lord High Seeker. Again, he could easily have appointed another Seeker as a temporary placement while he looked for a templar replacement. It simply is my opinion that as the leader of the Seekers, it was inappropriate for him personally to hold that position. 

 

It is true he was kept out of the dark on the research into tranquility. But it is not his job to counter the Divine, and to some extent, even he was willing to see the benefits of looking for an alternative to tranquility. 

 

And no, I'm not saying he should've departed. I'm saying that he should respect the wishes of the Divine, and that his very job description requires him to do so. Rushing in and disregarding her orders and the mages right to a lawful conclave, ordering the attack, imprisoning the First Enchanters who survive and so on, is nothing more than an abuse of power and authority because he didn't get his way. 

[The Baconer]

Under qualified? Seekers are often taken from senior templars if not trained by the seekers themselves if DOS is anything to go by.

 

Not to mention, i doubt you would come from Tevinter, pledge yourself to the white chantry, be in their service presumably for decades and then become the highest ranking of their order and still be construed as "unqualified".

 

Given recent events,  the Kirkwall debacle being the most significant, it's clear that the skill-set of a Seeker should encompass more than just "Templar working above their pay-grade", and that the organization as a whole is in dire need of restructuring.

 

I would question if most of them are in fact qualified, going by their standard of incompetence as of late.

[Master Warder Z_]

Given recent events,  the Kirkwall debacle being the most significant, it's clear that the skill-set of a Seeker should encompass more than just "Templar working above their pay-grade", and that the organization as a whole is in dire need of restructuring.

 

I really do hope that the Seeker's inaction there will one day be explained to be honest, because i do admit it is puzzling.

 

Leliana only came to stop a mage plot assassinate the cleric, not because of anything to do with the Templars.

 

That led me to the belief that it wasn't widely known of outside of Kirkwall, Orlais is a long way from the Free Marches after all.

[The Baconer]

Leliana only came to stop a mage plot assassinate the cleric, not because of anything to do with the Templars.

 

That led me to the belief that it wasn't widely known of outside of Kirkwall, Orlais is a long way from the Free Marches after all.

 

Nah, Leliana's comments confirm that this isn't the case:

 

"Biggest threat to Thedas since the Qunari invasion"  [...]   "The whole world is watching Kirkwall"

 

Well, you shitlords sure did a good job with that. *eyeroll*

[cjones91]

Nah, Leliana's comments confirm that this isn't the case:

 

"Biggest threat to Thedas since the Qunari invasion"  [...]   "The whole world is watching Kirkwall"

 

Well, you shitlords sure did a good job with that. *eyeroll*

I'm surprised Leliana left Kirkwall to it's fate instead of urging Ethina to atleast reign in Meredith.I feel everyone is at fault for this mess,the Chantry for not keeping the Templars/Seekers in check,the mages for letting the extremists dictate everything,and the Templars/Seekers for not rooting out corruption in their ranks.

[Mistic]

I really do hope that the Seeker's inaction there will one day be explained to be honest, because i do admit it is puzzling.

 

Agreed. The entry on Therinfal Redoubt suggests that the Seekers might have been lacking resources in the last few decades, but still, they could have done more with their current forces.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm surprised Leliana left Kirkwall to it's fate instead of urging Ethina to atleast reign in Meredith.I feel everyone is at fault for this mess,the Chantry for not keeping the Templars/Seekers in check,the mages for letting the extremists dictate everything,and the Templars/Seekers for not rooting out corruption in their ranks.

 

And the Mages for turning to blood magic and demons at the drop of a hat?

 

That's a brilliant way to show you should be free

 

Honestly DA 2 showed more blood mages then normal mages, seriously go back and count.

[Lulupab]

And the Mages for turning to blood magic and demons at the drop of a hat?
 
That's a brilliant way to show you should be free
 
Honestly DA 2 showed more blood mages then normal mages, seriously go back and count.

And not a single Templar questioned orders who came from Meredith. Why would they? They are fed because of her, who cares about some mages suffering and dying am I right? Albeit Cullen's last minute change of heart which in a reverse position where a mage has a change of heart at last minute he doesn't accept it.

At least mages have the courtesy to question their own kind and blood magic.

[cjones91]

And the Mages for turning to blood magic and demons at the drop of a hat?

 

That's a brilliant way to show you should be free

 

Honestly DA 2 showed more blood mages then normal mages, seriously go back and count.

I did say the mages share some blame for the current situation.

[cjones91]

And not a single Templar questioned orders who came from Meredith. Why would they? They are fed because of her, who cares about some mages suffering and dying am I right? Albeit Cullen's last minute change of heart which in a reverse position where a mage has a change of heart at last minute he doesn't accept it.

At least mages have the courtesy to question their own kind and blood magic.

Orsino covered up any and all evidence of blood mages operating in Kirkwall though.

[Master Warder Z_]

Orsino covered up any and all evidence of blood mages operating in Kirkwall though.

 

And aided and abetted a serial killer, for the sake of research.

 

Orsino was as much a monster as Meredith, if not MUCH more so.

[The Hierophant]

And not a single Templar questioned orders who came from Meredith. Why would they? They are fed because of her, who cares about some mages suffering and dying am I right? Albeit Cullen's last minute change of heart which in a reverse position where a mage has a change of heart at last minute he doesn't accept it.
At least mages have the courtesy to question their own kind and blood magic.

Clearly false. There's Keran, Ser Agatha, Thrask and his faction of Templars.

[cjones91]

And aided and abetted a serial killer, for the sake of research.

 

Orsino was as much a monster as Meredith, if not MUCH more so.

Yeah,they both represent the extremes each is capable of going to.That's one thing I liked about DA2's story and hopefully DA:I will provide more of.

[dragonflight288]

And aided and abetted a serial killer, for the sake of research.

 

Orsino was as much a monster as Meredith, if not MUCH more so.

 

Orsino had death squads killing templar families and supporters in public? 

 

Orsino illegally seized power in the city as the defacto Viscount and refused to let the city run itself?

 

Orsino sought the complete extermination of an entire group of people from the Divine by going over Elthina's head? 

 

Orsino is not innocent by any measure, but his guilt shouldn't reflect the guilt of all mages, nor can his actions be comparable to Meredith's, as she did all of the above that I mentioned, only with mages families and supporters. 

 

I'm not saying all mages are innocent, and I'm not saying all templars are guilty, but mages are born as they are and then locked up and templars are part of a military order with a clear chain-of-command, and thus ought to be held more accountable for their actions, especially since those actions directly affect the mages conditions, Kirkwall's conditions in DA2, whereas the mages actions don't. 

 

 

Yeah,they both represent the extremes each is capable of going to.That's one thing I liked about DA2's story and hopefully DA:I will provide more of.

 

I hope Inquisition handles it better than DA2 did, as Act 3's ending was quite rushed, and a lot of plot made no sense. Like Grace wanting revenge and death upon Hawk when Hawke could've helped her escape in Act 1, or Orsino being a mandatory boss, even for a Hawke who is helping him, or only learning Meredith's backstory if you support the templars at the beginning of Act 3. 

[cjones91]

Orsino had death squads killing templar families and supporters in public? 

 

Orsino illegally seized power in the city as the defacto Viscount and refused to let the city run itself?

 

Orsino sought the complete extermination of an entire group of people from the Divine by going over Elthina's head? 

 

Orsino is not innocent by any measure, but his guilt shouldn't reflect the guilt of all mages, nor can his actions be comparable to Meredith's, as she did all of the above that I mentioned, only with mages families and supporters. 

 

I'm not saying all mages are innocent, and I'm not saying all templars are guilty, but mages are born as they are and then locked up and templars are part of a military order with a clear chain-of-command, and thus ought to be held more accountable for their actions, especially since those actions directly affect the mages conditions, Kirkwall's conditions in DA2, whereas the mages actions don't. 

 

 

 

I hope Inquisition handles it better than DA2 did, as Act 3's ending was quite rushed, and a lot of plot made no sense. Like Grace wanting revenge and death upon Hawk when Hawke could've helped her escape in Act 1, or Orsino being a mandatory boss, even for a Hawke who is helping him, or only learning Meredith's backstory if you support the templars at the beginning of Act 3. 

Orsino knew there were blood mages in Kirkwall,he even helped a serial killer who was kidnapping women with his necromancy research.When cornered Orsino turned himself into a nightmarish creature which proves his guilt all the more.

[dragonflight288]

Orsino knew there were blood mages in Kirkwall,he even helped a serial killer who was kidnapping women with his necromancy research.When cornered Orsino turned himself into a nightmarish creature which proves his guilt all the more.

 

*shrug* Him knowing about the serial killer does make him guilty, but that does not mean that he knew about all the blood mages. 

 

A pro-mage Hawke is asked by Orsino to investigate because he fears blood magic is involved, and if he went straight to Meredith she would use it as justification to clamp harder on the mages, if not annul them completely. He wanted evidence. 

 

And when you go to him and say that a templar was leading the group, and that it had been defeated, he believes you. 

 

Whereas if you go to Meredith and tell her the same thing, she dismisses everything you say out of hand and says that Orsino is controlling you through blood magic to keep her from getting evidence. 

 

Orsino is not innocent, but he is also not AS guilty as some people make him out to be. Strictly my opinion. I'm simply criticizing that the ending is not well-written, is a rushed product, and you only actually find out he knew about Quentin if you side with the templars, and that is also bad story-telling. 

 

I can see why people would hate him. I simply don't think he's AS guilty as Meredith, but he IS guilty and shares some of the blame for things going fubar. I simply give Meredith majority accountability considering her position, her unwillingness to hear anything other than her own opinion, and the sheer scope of power she seized for herself, and much of it was not meant to be hers like being the defact Viscount. 

 

With more power and responsibility also comes greater accountability. 

[Lulupab]

Clearly false. There's Keran, Ser Agatha, Thrask and his faction of Templars.

which is like 2% of Templar order in kirkwall and is dealt with almost immediately.

[Master Warder Z_]

Orsino had death squads killing templar families and supporters in public? 

 

Interfering with a Templar's duty is a crime in Thedas both in the eyes of the law and maker.

 

Thus any response given by the Templars at the scene is warranted, It's their bailiwick after all.

 

Calling them death squads though seems crass, If they are going to retrieve an apostate and are opposed, it's more akin to them being soldiers under fire and choosing to engage.

 

 

Orsino illegally seized power in the city as the defacto Viscount and refused to let the city run itself?

 

He certainly didn't stabilize the situation to where the extent that templar military rule wouldn't have been necessary.

 

 

Orsino sought the complete extermination of an entire group of people from the Divine by going over Elthina's head? 

 

Given the events occurring within and from that circle, calling for the rite is within the Knight Commander's ability.

[Lulupab]

Interfering with a Templar's duty is a crime in Thedas both in the eyes of the law and maker.
 
Thus any response given by the Templars at the scene is warranted, It's their bailiwick after all.
 
Calling them death squads though seems crass, If they are going to retrieve an apostate and are opposed, it's more akin to them being soldiers under fire and choosing to engage.

They were going to kill someone for feeding her apostate cousin. (It seemed the apostate was not at her home at that moment)

[Master Warder Z_]

They were going to kill someone for feeding her apostate cousin. (It seemed the apostate was not at her home at that moment)

 

That's an assumption, One that perhaps didn't share, beyond that killing sympathetic family members could only make their lives and roles easier in the long run.

 

Doing what is right is not always the same as doing what is considered just, That's the distinction i draw from the Templars.

 

I don't hide their actions behind morality because i know a good deal of them are horribly repugnant if you judge it in that spectrum.

 

It's the benefit of Lawful evil awesomeness.

[TheKomandorShepard]

They were going to kill someone for feeding her apostate cousin. (It seemed the apostate was not at her home at that moment)

helping criminals is a crime such person should inform templars not to mention that such person was helping person that is danger to entire city.

[Nukekitten]

Under qualified? Seekers are often taken from senior templars if not trained by the seekers themselves if DOS is anything to go by.

Not to mention, i doubt you would come from Tevinter, pledge yourself to the white chantry, be in their service presumably for decades and then become the highest ranking of their order and still be construed as "unqualified".

Being qualified for the position isn't necessarily the same thing as being qualified for the task. (Much as it might be suggested to some organisation that it would be prudent to approximate the latter with the former somewhat more closely.)

When you think of the qualities that would fit well with the Seekers supposed roles, at least to me, they're things like an understanding of psychology and history, an understanding of statistics, investigative skills, an ability to see many potential explanations for a situation....

And then I think of Cassandra: A woman who got the job because she stumbled around being constantly outmanoeuvred by the Bad Guy, was saved by a mage she happened to run into, and was good at killing dragons when it counted.

How is she cut out to lead an organisation that has oversight as its basic remit? She won by being able to fight her way out when things went to heck - and the point of having the Seekers is to not be in a position where things go to heck. If she was being made a sergeant in an infantry force, I might be inclined to agree that she's a good pick, but she seems very ill suited to a force that's meant to exercise a high degree of discretion.

[Osena109]

Mages should be  made to bind Knee   Templers don't use blood magic and turn in to  Abominations and kill people to power there sick  twisted Spells Templers do bad things but i don't believe Templers would do that if npt for  the stupid Practice of forceing Lyruim on Templers i  do believe the lyruim  it clouds there judgement and makes them do  Unspeckable things to get there next fix of the crap

[Lulupab]

danger to entire city.

You mean Meredith and her puppets. Yeah, definitely a danger to the city. I was never more happy when I see someone dying. That horrific death scene with her loud screams as she with full consciousness watched her own body turn into stone and felt every inch of the pain.

[The Hierophant]

which is like 2% of Templar order in kirkwall and is dealt with almost immediately.

and this still doesn't change the fact that your statement about Cullen being the only Templar to have misgivings about Meredith is fallacious hyperbole.