518 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

You mean Meredith and her puppets. Yeah, definitely a danger to the city. I was never more happy when I see someone dying. That horrific death scene with her loud screams as she with full consciousness watched her own body turn into stone and felt every inch of the pain.

She was protecting it by not nice means pretty much i don't renember where she did something bad to folks unless they were helping criminals that were danger to the city.Even worst templars in players eyes (arlik) weren't danger to anyone outside circle when mages were killing ,kidnapping or just had fun with demons all the time.Also damn and they say that im sociopath.

[Pierce Miller]

I'd have them executed by way of flaying. Then preserve the corpses to keep as souvenirs. Course my characters tend to be a little biased.

[TK514]

Orsino had death squads killing templar families and supporters in public? 

 

Orsino illegally seized power in the city as the defacto Viscount and refused to let the city run itself?

 

Orsino sought the complete extermination of an entire group of people from the Divine by going over Elthina's head? 

 

Orsino is not innocent by any measure, but his guilt shouldn't reflect the guilt of all mages, nor can his actions be comparable to Meredith's, as she did all of the above that I mentioned, only with mages families and supporters. 

 

I'm not saying all mages are innocent, and I'm not saying all templars are guilty, but mages are born as they are and then locked up and templars are part of a military order with a clear chain-of-command, and thus ought to be held more accountable for their actions, especially since those actions directly affect the mages conditions, Kirkwall's conditions in DA2, whereas the mages actions don't. 

 

 

 

I hope Inquisition handles it better than DA2 did, as Act 3's ending was quite rushed, and a lot of plot made no sense. Like Grace wanting revenge and death upon Hawk when Hawke could've helped her escape in Act 1, or Orsino being a mandatory boss, even for a Hawke who is helping him, or only learning Meredith's backstory if you support the templars at the beginning of Act 3. 

 

Orsino also wasn't being driven insane by an enigmatic and dangerous red lyrium idol.  The things Meredith did were terrible, but she was not completely in control of herself.  The things Orsino did, he did with his full faculties.

[Master Warder Z_]

Orsino also wasn't being driven insane by an enigmatic and dangerous red lyrium idol.  The things Meredith did were terrible, but she was not completely in control of herself.  The things Orsino did, he did with his full faculties.

 

This is also true.

 

Not to mention the Circle there was as corrupt as the Chechen parliament.

[cjones91]

Orsino also wasn't being driven insane by an enigmatic and dangerous red lyrium idol.  The things Meredith did were terrible, but she was not completely in control of herself.  The things Orsino did, he did with his full faculties.

We don't know how much the idol influenced Meredith,it certainly didn't make her steal the Viscount seat and prevent another one from being elected.

[Master Warder Z_]

We don't know how much the idol influenced Meredith,it certainly didn't make her steal the Viscount seat and prevent another one from being elected.

 

._. It might have.

 

Unless if a dev said it didn't?

[cjones91]

._. It might have.

 

Unless if a dev said it didn't?

It's not possible because she took control of the Viscount seat after Act 2.She didn't get the Red Lyrium Sword until Act 3 which is several years after the Qunari Invasion and Dumar's death.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's not possible because she took control of the Viscount seat after Act 2.She didn't get the Red Lyrium Sword until Act 3 which is several years after the Qunari Invasion and Dumar's death.

 

Bartrand mentions selling the Idol to her during the mid point of Act 2, She had it the entire time between then and the conclusion of act 3.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We don't know how much the idol influenced Meredith,it certainly didn't make her steal the Viscount seat and prevent another one from being elected.

Oh the horror the nobles must have endured not knowing which of them would get to rule all the pesky peasants.

[cjones91]

Bartrand mentions selling the Idol to her during the mid point of Act 2, She had it the entire time between then and the conclusion of act 3.

But she didn't have it on her at that time.

[cjones91]

Oh the horror the nobles must have endured not knowing which of them would get to rule all the pesky peasants.

It's illegal for Templars to take political power.That's why Meredith should've given the viscount seat up and let Kirkwall elect a new one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It's illegal for Templars to take political power.That's why Meredith should've given the viscount seat up and let Kirkwall elect a new one.

Oh, the HUMANITY. How did those poor nobles ever endure such agony?!

 

You know what is also illegal? Blood Magic.

[cjones91]

Oh, the HUMANITY. How did those poor nobles ever endure such agony?!

 

You know what is also illegal? Blood Magic.

 

Oh, the HUMANITY. How did those poor nobles ever endure such agony?!

 

You know what is also illegal? Blood Magic.

Your point?It doesn't change the fact that Meredith broke Chantry law by usurping the Viscount seat.All Templars are required to give up any noble titles and ties to political positions when taking their vows,they are forbidden from being involved in politics.

[Master Warder Z_]

But she didn't have it on her at that time.

 

Really? That's your defense, we didn't see and therefore it didn't happen?

 

Inversely, you cannot claim that it is impossible for the Idol to have effected her, Her making it into a sword only kept it on her person longer, as we saw from Bartand you don't even need to do that with it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Your point?It doesn't change the fact that Meredith broke Chantry law by usurping the Viscount seat.All Templars are required to give up any noble titles and ties to political positions when taking their vows,they are forbidden from being involved in politics.

Meredith didn't take ANY titles. so she didn't break any laws. She PREVENTED a new vote, and she was fully capable of doing that, since she ahd the largest army, and thus the most power, in Kirkwall. What Meredith did was not illegal.

[cjones91]

Meredith didn't take ANY titles. so she didn't break any laws. She PREVENTED a new vote, and she was fully capable of doing that, since she ahd the largest army, and thus the most power, in Kirkwall. What Meredith did was not illegal.

So she takes the Viscount seat,prevents a new one from being elected and generally holds all of the political power in Kirkwall.Nope,totally nothing illegal there.I bet if a mage did that you'll change your tune though,since they are also prevented from taking political positions by chantry law.

[QueenofFereldan]

Okay, Meredith wasn't a great person. In fact, she was crazy- part of it came from the lyrium and another part of what she saw with mages. Judging from the others, she always had harsh views on the mages and her harsh choices. However, the mages aren't innocent either, especially those that turned to blood magic and used it to harm other people. So no side is truly innocent, but you do have people on both sides that are truly good. Carver, Cullen, Thrask, Keran are a few examples for Templars; Alain, Feyneriel (hoped I spelled his name right), and Merethari are the few examples for Mages.

 

Both sides have good people and bad. What the Chantry and the Templars have done to the mages are wrong, but the Mages that choose blood magic don't help the Mages in a whole. That's why I believe that the Circle should stay as a type of school to help teach the young mages as well as keep them safe until they keep their Harrowing. Then, they can choose to leave. The Templars can watch over them and make sure those that turn to blood mages and abominations are killed.

[dragonflight288]

Orsino also wasn't being driven insane by an enigmatic and dangerous red lyrium idol.  The things Meredith did were terrible, but she was not completely in control of herself.  The things Orsino did, he did with his full faculties.

 

This is true.

 

But until the idol is pointed out I never even suspected that Meredith wasn't in control of faculties. She had reasons, emotions, and a very clear sense of direction she wanted to go. 

 

From what I can tell, all the idol actually did was exacerbate what was already there, her paranoia and fear, her ambition, and her inability to hear opinions that were not hers. 

 

She, after all, did not have the idol attached to her sword at the end of Act 2 when she saves us from Serebaas, yet the reports, more subtle than Act 3, are still there. 

 

Heck, they're there as far back as Act 1 before she even has the idol, with Thrask saying Kerras would be considered justified by Meredith if all the Starkhaven mages turned up dead and Cullen's codex specifically saying he was made Knight-Captain because his views matched hers. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Heck, they're there as far back as Act 1 before she even has the idol, with Thrask saying Kerras would be considered justified by Meredith if all the Starkhaven mages turned up dead and Cullen's codex specifically saying he was made Knight-Captain because his views matched hers. 

 

A Bunch of blood magic using demon worshipers not going to pollute the tower?

 

Oh no Meredith must be stopped!

 

Seriously, if Thrask was less of a wet blanket and actually accepted reality, he could have seen that it would been better for every for the mages to die then and there, rather then wait for them to be corrupted like their fellows.

[TK514]

This is true.

 

But until the idol is pointed out I never even suspected that Meredith wasn't in control of faculties. She had reasons, emotions, and a very clear sense of direction she wanted to go. 

 

From what I can tell, all the idol actually did was exacerbate what was already there, her paranoia and fear, her ambition, and her inability to hear opinions that were not hers. 

 

She, after all, did not have the idol attached to her sword at the end of Act 2 when she saves us from Serebaas, yet the reports, more subtle than Act 3, are still there. 

 

Heck, they're there as far back as Act 1 before she even has the idol, with Thrask saying Kerras would be considered justified by Meredith if all the Starkhaven mages turned up dead and Cullen's codex specifically saying he was made Knight-Captain because his views matched hers. 

 

Oh, agreed.  She was always harsh and cold, and the idol definitely amplified her negative traits.  But she wasn't "send death squads to kill everyday citizens" crazy until the idol.  She was lacking in lenience, if not empathy, the whole time, but her truly heinous crimes came after she'd lost any claim to mental competence.

[Bekalynn]

Ummm... I thought this thread was about how you would change/improve the Templar Order if you had the power to do so? It seems to be getting a tad off-topic, if that's the case...

 

To answer the original post, I think the best solution would be to integrate. Allow mages to join the Templars. Have Templars and mage apprentices study and train together, in the same school, facilities, classrooms. Acknowledge that what the Templars do is a form of magic, and one that can be very beneficial in certain situations (i.e.: abominations). And who better to fight against abominations than mages and Templars? My mages and Alistair were pretty stinking effective when they worked together to bring down demons, etc. Nurture the belief that they (mages and Templars) are "all in this together to make the world a better place". Stop addicting Templars to lyrium. You need people using their brains to make informed decisions, not acting to feed their addiction. Alistair in DA:O said that Templars don't need lyrium to do what they do; it just makes it easier. Stop forcibly removing mages from their families and denying them basic human rights; allow them to have families and friends and be a part of the community. If you have something to lose, you're a lot less likely to go rampaging about the countryside. You don't have time. After all, the kids need to be fed, the chores need to be done, and you have to have that "little talk" with your teen-ager about the boy/girl next door! It seemed to me that so often in these stories mages became abominations out of terror and/or rage; isn't that what happened with Thrask's daughter and Evangeline who was forcibly taken away from the Ferelden orphans she'd been caring for? Is there a risk in mage freedom? Of course there is. But life is risk. Every person around has the potential to be a serial murderer; the vast majority of us are not. Given the world-state as it currently exists in Thedas, would these changes be easy? No, of course not. Social change never is. But...it has to start somewhere.

 

Anyway, my two cents...

[TK514]

So she takes the Viscount seat,prevents a new one from being elected and generally holds all of the political power in Kirkwall.Nope,totally nothing illegal there.I bet if a mage did that you'll change your tune though,since they are also prevented from taking political positions by chantry law.

 

Sorry, but interfering in a transfer of political power isn't even remotely in the same league as aiding and sharing research with a serial killer who is stitching together Frankenstein's wife, or murdering your apprentices and fellow mages to turn into a harvester.

 

Seriously, if intimidating the nobles into deciding not to hold a vote were the worst thing that happened, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I like how people are using Kirkwall as showing what is normal instead of showing the worst of both sides as was intended. 

[TheJediSaint]

I like how people are using Kirkwall as showing what is normal instead of showing the worst of both sides as was intended. 

Kirkwall never was nor ever will be a good example of anything.

[AresKeith]

I like how people are using Kirkwall as showing what is normal instead of showing the worst of both sides as was intended. 

 

Not to mention that it got worse after Starkhaven came to Kirkwall