518 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

I like how people are using Kirkwall as showing what is normal instead of showing the worst of both sides as was intended. 

 

Meredith was the worst of the Templar order?

 

Sad as it is, i basically agree with 90% of what she did during her rule there.

[cjones91]

Sorry, but interfering in a transfer of political power isn't even remotely in the same league as aiding and sharing research with a serial killer who is stitching together Frankenstein's wife, or murdering your apprentices and fellow mages to turn into a harvester.

 

Seriously, if intimidating the nobles into deciding not to hold a vote were the worst thing that happened, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

So that makes it okay for a Templar to break one of their vows because other people have done worse?

[Master Warder Z_]

So that makes it okay for a Templar to break one of their vows because other people have done worse?

 

Why not, it seems okay for Mages to break the rules of their order for "lulz freedom"

[dragonflight288]

A Bunch of blood magic using demon worshipers not going to pollute the tower?

 

Oh no Meredith must be stopped!

 

Seriously, if Thrask was less of a wet blanket and actually accepted reality, he could have seen that it would been better for every for the mages to die then and there, rather then wait for them to be corrupted like their fellows.

 

*counts to ten*

 

Warder Z....I'm going to repeat myself, and try to make myself as clear as possible. 

 

At the time Thrask asks us to retrieve the mages, it's not because he knows they're practicing blood magic, it's because he's trying to prevent a bloodbath. The point of the statement I made was not how going easy on mages who practice blood magic is a good thing, but the justification Kerras would have been given. 

 

Meredith would've considered him justified if the mages hadn't surrendered before he arrived, before they even had the facts. The point was that when he showed up, he would've charged in to slaughter everyone without even considering looking for innocents, gathering facts, or even try to capture them. 

 

That is clearly an abuse of power and authority on both Meredith and Kerras' part. The point wasn't that the mages turned to blood magic, it was that the decision to kill them was made before they even had the knowledge that it happened. 

[dragonflight288]

Why not, it seems okay for Mages to break the rules of their order for "lulz freedom"

 

According to who?

[cjones91]

Why not, it seems okay for Mages to break the rules of their order for "lulz freedom"

Then the Grey Wardens should rule Thedas by your logic since the darkspawn are a worse threat than any mage.If a organization is allowed to break one of their  core tenets and get away with it then what does that say about them?

[Master Warder Z_]

*counts to ten*

 

Warder Z....I'm going to repeat myself, and try to make myself as clear as possible. 

 

At the time Thrask asks us to retrieve the mages, it's not because he knows they're practicing blood magic, it's because he's trying to prevent a bloodbath. The point of the statement I made was not how going easy on mages who practice blood magic is a good thing, but the justification Kerras would have been given. 

 

It's up to the Templar in question to make that decision, if they feel the mage is too dangerous or not to come back to the tower, and this group had burnt down their circle and fled.

 

 

 

Meredith would've considered him justified if the mages hadn't surrendered before he arrived, before they even had the facts. The point was that when he showed up, he would've charged in to slaughter everyone without even considering looking for innocents, gathering facts, or even try to capture them. 

 

That is clearly an abuse of power and authority on both Meredith and Kerras' part. 

 

As i said before, It would have been up to him and if the Knight Commander supported him, that's her ruling.

 

That would have possibly put more templars into danger trying to recapture mages who went off the reservation, honestly circle policy on this issue anyway seems to be to kill them on sight.

 

This is clearly not an abuse of power or authority on Meredith's part or even the knight in question, but standard operating policy from the two circles we have seen in the games thus far.

[cjones91]

According to who?

Him obviously,because Templars gaining political power when they are expressly forbidden to do so is okay because "lol,mages".

[Master Warder Z_]

If a organization is allowed to break one of their  core tenets and get away with it then what does that say about them?

 

That's made up of humans.

[Master Warder Z_]

According to who?

 

Fiona, Anders, Rhys, Take your pick, Uldred.

[cjones91]

That's made up of humans.

Humans that have taken vows,if a organization can't respect it's own rules then something has gone wrong.

[cjones91]

Fiona, Anders, Rhys, Take your pick, Uldred.

Not one of them ever made a play for political power so no dice.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not one of them ever made a play for political power so no dice.

 

Did you not bother reading what i wrote again?

 

They are all guilty of violating the rules of the circle of magi, some more then others.

[cjones91]

Did you not bother reading what i wrote again?

 

They are all guilty of violating the rules of the circle of magi, some more then others.

Circle rules aren't the same as taking political control of a city state,so again no dice.

[dragonflight288]

It's up to the Templar in question to make that decision, if they feel the mage is too dangerous or not to come back to the tower, and this group had burnt down their circle and fled.

 

 

 

As i said before, It would have been up to him and if the Knight Commander supported him, that's her ruling.

 

That would have possibly put more templars into danger trying to recapture mages who went off the reservation, honestly circle policy on this issue anyway seems to be to kill them on sight.

 

This is clearly not an abuse of power or authority on Meredith's part or even the knight in question, but standard operating policy from the two circles we have seen in the games thus far.

 

The cause of the fire was unknown. All that was known was that some mages whose phylacteries were destroyed in the fire were hiding out in a cave. 

 

The problem comes in the fact that the decision was made before anyone bothered to investigate and gather up any facts. 

 

 

It may have been her ruling, but it still was an abuse of power, and an unjustified one in my opinion. 

 

It's my opinion that if anyone is going to be put to death, it cannot be done on a whim without facts. And the decision to kill all the mages from Starkhaven before even investigating is nothing short of negligence on behalf of the templars to create a weak excuse to justify killing mages. 

 

 

That's made up of humans.

 

So it's all right for humans to break core tenans but not elves, dwarves or Qunari? Even if they have taken vows and sworn oaths, have rules and laws to govern an organization they are part of, it's alright to break those rules so long as the person doing so is human?

 

 

Fiona, Anders, Rhys, Take your pick, Uldred.

 

Fiona tried to separate during a lawful conclave, a conclave that had permission from the Divine to go forward. Anders I execute, and that should be the end of that in Kirkwall because the guilty is punished of that particular crime. Uldred was going through lawful means until Wynne returned, then became an abomination. His rebellion was unlawful and I had no problem killing those who fought, but he did try going through lawful means first through an alliance with the Regent of Ferelden. 

 

And Rhys didn't break the laws either until after the Seekers and the Templars broke them first.

 

The case you're making isn't making any sense at all because most of your examples are breaking less laws than Meredith or Lambert had. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Circle rules aren't the same as taking political control of a city state,so again no dice.

 

Yeah, see that's ignoring the argument.

 

Here is the series of events, you apparently ignored.

 

Why not, it seems okay for Mages to break the rules of their order for "lulz freedom"

 

 

According to who?

 

 

 

Fiona, Anders, Rhys, Take your pick, Uldred.

 

 

And here we are, judging Templars for violating the rules of their Order, Judging mages for violating the rules of their order.

 

And also i'd consider unleashing an international war, and a possible threat to an entire nation as a bigger issue then "messing around in politics" but that's me.

[cjones91]

Yeah, see that's ignoring the argument.

 

Here is the series of events, you apparently ignored.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here we are, judging Templars for violating the rules of their Order, Judging mages for violating the rules of their order.

 

And also i'd consider unleashing an international war, and a possible threat to an entire nation as a bigger issue then "messing around in politics" but that's me.

I'll bring up a earlier point:if a mage took control of the Viscount seat then several people here would pitch a fit,if that mage prevented a new viscount from being elected then I bet some members would be frothing at the mouth in outrage.

 

But a Templar who swore to sever all political ties and vowed to never get involved in political matters upon becoming one does it and suddenly it's fine.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fiona tried to separate during a lawful conclave, a conclave that had permission from the Divine to go forward.

 

To discuss a subject she immediately ignored and went in favor of sedition, and then proceeded to ignore the order of dispersing and decided to fight.

 

There isn't much defense here, if you read the book.

 

 

The case you're making isn't making any sense at all because most of your examples are breaking less laws than Meredith or Lambert had. 

 

You're joking right? Armed seizure, consorting with demons, blood magic, treason, sedition, murder and more.

 

Lambert to my knowledge violated no command save that he ignored the Divine's request for the conclave after it was used as a soap box for rebellion, After that and the accord annulled, they were no longer bound to the Chantry.

 

Period.

 

And this is inversely being compared with meddling in politics...seriously, international war, death and blood, compared to preventing nobles from sitting on a throne.

 

So you stole my line, The case you're making doesn't seem to make any sense.

[dragonflight288]

And here we are, judging Templars for violating the rules of their Order, Judging mages for violating the rules of their order.

 

And also i'd consider unleashing an international war, and a possible threat to an entire nation as a bigger issue then "messing around in politics" but that's me.

 

So the templars doing all of the above, an order with a clear chain-of-command and oaths sworn are somehow less responsible than a group of people born as they are and locked up upon discovery? 

 

The problem here is that is constantly ignored, is that the templars and the seekers have a chain-of-command, and where those exist, the actions of the subordinates is a reflection of the superior. It is always the case that the superior is held accountable for the actions of their subordinates. 

 

With the mages, there is no such chain. Sure, you can judge First Enchanters based on the policies they try to enact in a Circle, but since those policies are monitored by the templars, and have to be coapproved by the Knight-Commander, and many of the mages in those circles are children, templars always, as the ones in charge, hold the majority of the accountability. 

 

If the templars had no such jurisdiction and power in the day-to-day lives of mages, then the mages would have the majority accountability. The fact that they do not gives them some blame, but most lie on the templars in charge. 

[The Baconer]

And also i'd consider unleashing an international war, and a possible threat to an entire nation as a bigger issue then "messing around in politics" but that's me.

 

Yes, allowing the Champion of Kirkwall to openly skirt the laws of the land by harboring and collaborating with known apostates did indeed prove to be more disastrous than meddling with the court.

[dragonflight288]

Yes, allowing the Champion of Kirkwall to openly skirt the laws of the land by harboring and collaborating with known apostates did indeed prove to be more disastrous than meddling with the court.

 

You mean the genocide that would've been done with or without Hawke's presence whether by Qunari or by Meredith?

 

Anders was alread there, so Hawke's presence doesn't change what happened with Anders.

[The Baconer]

You mean the genocide that would've been done with or without Hawke's presence whether by Qunari or by Meredith?

 

No, I mean the events that kicked the schism/mage-templar war in gear.

[dragonflight288]

No, I mean the events that kicked the schism/mage-templar war in gear.

 

The actions of Anders and Meredith did that on its own. Hawke merely becomes a symbol of whatever group (s)he aids. 

 

Hawke does pretty much singlehandidly save Kirkwall from the Qunari though. And made for a good mercenary. But otherwise wasn't very effective. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well to be honest i don't why there is so much screaming that meredith broke the law it isn't that she did something bad with her power in kirkwall i mean all of our protagonist broke the law in da and well in many other rpg games. 

[cjones91]

Well to be honest i don't why there is so much screaming that meredith broke the law it isn't that she did something bad with her power in kirkwall i mean all of our protagonist broke the law in da and well in many other rpg games. 

Hawke and the Warden never took vows to keep out of "non magical" affairs,the Templars are supposed to keep out of politics and focus on dealing with mages,It's why they don't investigate crimes unless magic is involved.