518 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

How is it dishonestly? The minority what we talked about is so insignificant that I don't even count them. I didn't even remembered them when I posted the original statement. As I made the comparison earlier, if something is rotten the core it really doesn't matter if very few individuals are different.

The same logical fallacy you use can easily be flipped and used to condemn all of Kirkwall's Circle of Magi despite us the player not being privy to every single npc's status as a bloodmage, or opinion on the matter. While i certainly don't remember us having the ability to question every templar's stance on Meredith or their reasons for not joining Thrask's rebellion.

What i called you out on is a crystal clear falsehood you spouted and no amount of shifting/deflection/strawmen/ad hominem will make me lose sight of that.

[Lulupab]

The same logical fallacy you use can easily be flipped and used to condemn all of Kirkwall's Circle of Magi despite us the player not being privy to every single npc's status as a bloodmage, or opinion on the matter. While i certainly don't remember us having the ability to question every templar's stance on Meredith or their reasons for not joining Thrask's rebellion.
What i called you out on is a crystal clear falsehood you spouted and no amount of shifting/deflection/strawmen/ad hominem will make me lose sight of that.

No in fact it cannot be shifted to circle of magi, because being a bloodmage is one thing, using it to commit crimes as another thing Also mages are not required to be a beacon of hope Templars claim to be. So its their DUTY to fight corruption even among their own rank, a mage is there without his own will and that is all. You need to get down from your high horse or point out that you are explaining your own opinions and not self proclaimed facts.

Mages are just being mages, its the Templars who have become drug addict sheep who will follow any order as long as they are fed. Hence the rebellion, rogue Templars and the growing hatred of Templars among common people.

[Steelcan]

No in fact it cannot be shifted to circle of magi, because being a bloodmage is one thing, using it to commit crimes as another thing Also mages are not required to be a beacon of hope Templars claim to be. So its their DUTY to fight corruption even among their own rank, a mage is there without his own will and that is all. You need to get down from your high horse or point out that you are explaining your own opinions and not self proclaimed facts.

Mages are just being mages, its the Templars who have become drug addict sheep who will follow any order as long as they are fed. Hence the rebellion, rogue Templars and the growing hatred of Templars among common people.

Bloodmagic might not be inherently evil in theory but in practice it usually is, with the exception of Tevinter and the Grey Wardens, the only way to learn it is by consorting with demons

[Lulupab]

Bloodmagic might not be inherently evil in theory but in practice it usually is, with the exception of Tevinter and the Grey Wardens, the only way to learn it is by consorting with demons

That's the smaller reason, the more important one is that the duty to keep the circles safe from anyone even themselves is up to Templars and seeing they usually cannot handle it and fail, mages have every right to wish for an autonomy in circles.

Edit: Technically another blood mage can teach you as well.

[The Hierophant]

Same tactics again?

No in fact it cannot be shifted to circle of magi, because being a bloodmage is one thing, using it to commit crimes as another thing Also mages are not required to be a beacon of hope Templars claim to be. So its their DUTY to fight corruption even among their own rank, a mage is there without his own will and that is all. You need to get down from your high horse or point out that you are explaining your own opinions and not self proclaimed facts.
Mages are just being mages, its the Templars who have become drug addict sheep who will follow any order as long as they are fed. Hence the rebellion, rogue Templars and the growing hatred of Templars among common people.

Me get off my high horse? Opinions?

Nevermind that the Circle of Magi is an organization bound by rules like the Templar order who's members can also potentially be negatively influenced and corrupted by its chain of command. Like Uldred training bloodmages in secret.

Please point out the opinion?...

The same logical fallacy you use can easily be flipped and used to condemn all of Kirkwall's Circle of Magi despite us the player not being privy to every single npc's status as a bloodmage, or opinion on the matter. While i certainly don't remember us having the ability to question every templar's stance on Meredith or their reasons for not joining Thrask's rebellion.
What i called you out on is a crystal clear falsehood you spouted and no amount of shifting/deflection/strawmen/ad hominem will make me lose sight of that.

The bolded so much so.

[Steelcan]

That's the smaller reason, the more important one is that the duty to keep the circles safe from anyone even themselves is up to Templars and seeing they usually cannot handle it and fail, mages have every right to wish for an autonomy in circles.

Edit: Technically another blood mage can teach you as well.

yes, but outside of Tevinter and the Grey Wardens such teachers are few and far between

 

The Templars also have a duty to protect the rest of the people from mages, its a double-edged sword

[Lulupab]

Same tactics again?
Me get off my high horse? Opinions?
Nevermind that the Circle of Magi is an organization bound by rules like the Templar order who's members can also potentially be negatively influenced and corrupted by its chain of command. Like Uldred training bloodmages in secret.
Please point out the opinion?...

The bolded so much so.

Mages are required to follow some rules but they don't have a duty to protect the circle of magi from anything. Its the Templar's job. Now if the Templars are the danger itself which the games shows they really can be, then as I said autonomy is justified because this simply proves Templars are not as efficient as they claim and can be. Also Uldred didn't train blood mages in secret, there was no sane mage under his command, all were abomination and he himself became one by "accidentally" summoning a pride demon. But this is not even important. The fact remains that if Templars cannot stop corruption among their own ranks they need to be removed from command or undergo changes. Mages are just in circles without their own will so they are not required to ensure the safety of circles.

(Here comes the opinion you wanted pointed out) You think just because there are blood mages among circle of magi this absolves the Templars from the corruption and following orders without question. While the cold and harsh truth is, there is nothing worse when a force that is supposed to fight corruption becomes one itself. It also applies in our world and for this very reason Police and all security forces are punished much harsher if they commit a crime by abusing their power.

Even the leader of all blood mages, Orsino was willing to resolve things without conflict but nope, Meredith wanted her annulment and there was no single Templar even questioning this act. She shouts "kill" they don't ask "why?" They ask "who?". Actually I'm just saying this, they don't even say this, they nod and kill.

[Steelcan]

Mages are required to follow some rules but they don't have a duty to protect the circle of magi from anything. Its the Templar's job. Now if the Templars are the danger itself which the games shows they really can be, then as I said autonomy is justified because this simply proves Templars are not as efficient as they claim and can be. Also Uldred didn't train blood mages in secret, there was no sane mage under his command, all were abomination and he himself became one by "accidentally" summoning a pride demon. But this is not even important. The fact remains that if Templars cannot stop corruption among their own ranks they need to be removed from command or undergo changes. Mages are just in circles without their own will so they are not required to ensure the safety of circles.

(Here comes the opinion you wanted pointed out) You think just because there are blood mages among circle of magi this absolves the Templars from the corruption and following orders without question. While the cold and harsh truth is, there is nothing worse when a force that is supposed to fight corruption becomes one itself. It also applies in our world and for this very reason Police and all security forces are punished much harsher if they commit a crime by abusing their power.

Even the leader of all blood mages, Orsino was willing to resolve things without conflict but nope, Meredith wanted her annulment and there was no single Templar even questioning this act. She shouts "kill" they don't ask "why?" They ask "who?". Actually I'm just saying this, they don't even say this, they nod and kill.

Templar corruption is skimming from coffers, abuse of mages, etc...

 

Mage corruption can result in body counts into the hundreds

[Lulupab]

Templar corruption is skimming from coffers, abuse of mages, etc...
 
Mage corruption can result in body counts into the hundreds

The ends does not justify the means. Before arguing with The Hierophant the topic I was talking about was the fact that Templars need to do better. Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could. Fear and paranoia made Meredith and Loghain like that. Loghain did more damage to Ferelden than Orlains and darkspawn combined. Same goes for Meredith.

[Master Warder Z_]

Templar corruption is skimming from coffers, abuse of mages, etc...

 

Mage corruption can result in body counts into the hundreds

 

Damn it steel!

 

You stole my line again! :'(

[Master Warder Z_]

The ends does not justify the means. 

 

It completely does, keeping the normal people safe from the folks who can become possessed or cast fireballs at them.

 

The entirety of Thedas cannot become templars just because mages believe themselves to be normal, when they are in fact Abnormal.

[Steelcan]

The ends does not justify the means. Before arguing with The Hierophant the topic I was talking about was the fact that Templars need to do better. Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed. Fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could. Fear and paranoia made Meredith and Loghain like that. Loghain did more damage to Ferelden than Orlains and darkspawn combined. Same goes for Meredith.

Loghain bloody saved Ferelden and saved most of the army from a foolish plan doomed to failure.  Meredith was insane

 

And magic can be destroyed rather easily, robes aren't great for deflecting swords or arrows, and it can be made safe as the tranquil show

[EmissaryofLies]

I am ALWAYS late to these things.

 

Am I to assume that this discussion devolved into potshots as to who's at fault regarding the Mage and Templar conflict?

[cjones91]

Loghain bloody saved Ferelden and saved most of the army from a foolish plan doomed to failure.  Meredith was insane

 

And magic can be destroyed rather easily, robes aren't great for deflecting swords or arrows, and it can be made safe as the tranquil show

Fereldan would've fallen to the darkspawn if Loghain had gotten the last two Wardens killed.He almost doomed everyone from the start.

[cjones91]

I am ALWAYS late to these things.

 

Am I to assume that this discussion devolved into potshots as to who's at fault regarding the Mage and Templar conflict?

Not yet anyway.

[Steelcan]

Fereldan would've fallen to the darkspawn if Loghain had gotten the last two Wardens killed.He almost doomed everyone from the start.

yeah and he also secured its independence at the Battle of River Dane

[TheJediSaint]

Fereldan would've fallen to the darkspawn if Loghain had gotten the last two Wardens killed.He almost doomed everyone from the start.

Not to mention refusing aid from the Orlesians.  If Loghain didn't feel the need to go House Bolton on everyone, the Fifth Blight would've been over before the Prologue finished.

[Mistic]

(Here comes the opinion you wanted pointed out) You think just because there are blood mages among circle of magi this absolves the Templars from the corruption and following orders without question. While the cold and harsh truth is, there is nothing worse when a force that is supposed to fight corruption becomes one itself. It also applies in our world and for this very reason Police and all security forces are punished much harsher if they commit a crime by abusing their power.

 

Well, it's not "it also applies in our world", but "it only applies in our world". In Thedas, there are things that are much, much, much, much worse than that. For example, bringing a corrupting taint from the Fade that transforms people and even Old Gods into killing machines. Or opening a giant breach in the sky to bring hordes of demons so that some guy called "the Elder One" can become a god of despair. We know that at least in the first case mages without supervision and too much power were involved.

 

It's true that the Circle system needs an overhaul, since it has broken down completely. Whatever the solution is, the dangers of magic will have to be adressed. I mean, even in Tevinter and the Dalish tribes, which are often mentioned as examples of magic being more accepted, there are several measures not to get the mages out of control.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not to mention refusing aid from the Orlesians.  If Loghain didn't feel the need to go House Bolton on everyone, the Fifth Blight would've been over before the Prologue finished.

 

Uh no?

 

God Ostagar is a historical nightmare in DA due to all the conflicting accounts and lore of it.

 

Ostagar wasn't a winnable battle according to basically every one who was there, and according to the devs.

[cjones91]

yeah and he also secured its independence at the Battle of River Dane

Loghain was a different man back then,people change and not always for the better.

[Steelcan]

Loghain was a different man back then,people change and not always for the better.

he hasn't changed all that much, he still hates Orlais and is paranoid (not entirely unjustifiably so) about them, it just happened that the darkspawn were the threat he should have worried about

[cjones91]

he hasn't changed all that much, he still hates Orlais and is paranoid (not entirely unjustifiably so) about them, it just happened that the darkspawn were the threat he should have worried about

Agreed,I think he was just willfully blind to the real danger due to his hatred though.Ordering a hit on the two people left to stop your nation's greatest threat is beyond stupid.

[Steelcan]

Agreed,I think he was just willfully blind to the real danger due to his hatred though.Ordering a hit on the two people left to stop your nation's greatest threat is beyond stupid.

he didn't think it was a real Blight, and he had no reason to think so

[TheKomandorShepard]

he didn't think it was a real Blight, and he had no reason to think so

I don't know but huge numbers of darkspawn from nowhere may be rather good reason to start suspect that it may be blight

[Master Warder Z_]

he hasn't changed all that much, he still hates Orlais and is paranoid (not entirely unjustifiably so) about them, it just happened that the darkspawn were the threat he should have worried about

 

 

• Loghain: Here, some smoked boar saved from supper. Huh, it'll do you good.
• Dog: (Excited huffing)
• Loghain: I had a mabari once. Adalla--that was her name. We found her in the wood shed one night. She was still a pup then.
• Loghain: We never figured out where she came from. My mother called her a gift from the Maker. And she was... she really was.
• Loghain: She was beautiful; she had a lovely chestnut brown coat, and the most intelligent, understanding eyes. You would have liked her.
• Dog: (He wags his tail.)
• Loghain: We grew up together. She never left my side, not once. Ten years we had her, before she was taken away...
• Dog: (He cocks his head and looks curiously at Loghain.)
• Loghain: Another time perhaps. Finish
• your snack.
• Dog: (Dog sniffs the air curiously.)
• Loghain: Oh, don't give me that face. I'm betting you want the cheese in my pocket.
• Dog: (He sits and waits patiently.)
• Loghain: Very well, here you go. Don't eat it all at once. Or... do, whichever you prefer.
• Loghain: I used to keep cheese in my pocket for Adalla too. I think the rinds were her favorite part.
• Loghain: I mentioned she was taken from us, did I not? This was when Orlais still ruled, and it was an Orlesian lordling who took her.
• Loghain: He wanted to mix the blood of our noble mabari with their frail, wasp-wasted game hounds, which were bred for looks, not intelligence.
• Loghain: I tried to keep her, but there was little I could do to stop the Orlesian... I wasn't even a man then.
• Loghain: You can imagine what it was like for her, being torn away from the boy--the family she was bonded to.
• Dog: (Long, low whine)
• Loghain: It was six months before we saw her again. The Orlesian returned her--and when I say "returned," I mean "pushed her out of his wagon."
• Loghain: She was skin and bone, and still carried the scars from where their pronged collars bit into her neck. She never quite recovered.
• Loghain: She passed away after a week. It was as though she held on long enough to come home to us. I held her head in my lap, and I believe she died happy.
• Dog: (Sad whine)

 

http://dragonage.wik...ac_Tir/Dialogue

 

That conversation is pretty telling.