518 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Define "having no freedom", because they seemed to exercise plenty of freedoms to me. Also servitude, because I dont see anywhere where mages are owned by another person or are discussed as objects and not persons.

 

Cullen argues that Elthina must support the templars because they have "dominion over mages by divine right", while we have codex entries that address how some mages didn't want to be "servants of the Chantry" or live "in servitude to the Chantry", and the Bioware Blog even read how templars don't "control mages" in all areas of Thedas. Even the mage protagonist can comment how the Circle of Ferelden will do whatever the Chantry says, so I can certainly see why some characters have that point of view.

 

However, this doesn't really have anything to do with my initial comment on the subject, as I was addressing how it can potentially be an issue for people in Thedas who have this mindset.

[cjones91]

There is no proof there were earlier darkspawn. As far as Canon and the wiki is concerned, the magisters are the first darkspawn. The burden of proof is on people who argue there were darkspawn before the magisters.

The dwarves claim the darkspawn suddenly appeared from underground so that's proof right there.

[Inprea]

Define "having no freedom", because they seemed to exercise plenty of freedoms to me. Also servitude, because I dont see anywhere where mages are owned by another person or are discussed as objects and not persons.

 

Freedoms like when Maric rebelled the mages were forbidden from going and aiding their king in liberating their homeland while mages were sent to help Orlays we also see Gregor preventing Irving from sending additional mages to help with the initial conflict despite Duncan stepping in. There is also the ability to have and raise your own child taken from them or the right to own property. Even what they're allowed to study or learn is limited and I'm not talking about just blood magic. As we see from the notes in the broke circle whenever one of the senior mages tried to pay for his students to receive martial arts lessons he was blocked he even offered to let the training happen in his quarters.

 

Some people put tremendous value on raising a child after all. Procreation is one of our major drives after all.

 

How do you define plenty of freedoms?

[cjones91]

Define "having no freedom", because they seemed to exercise plenty of freedoms to me. Also servitude, because I dont see anywhere where mages are owned by another person or are discussed as objects and not persons.

"A golden cage is still a cage,pretty but confining."

[LobselVith8]

There is no proof there were earlier darkspawn. As far as Canon and the wiki is concerned, the magisters are the first darkspawn. The burden of proof is on people who argue there were darkspawn before the magisters.

 

It's a matter of debate and speculation due to Corypheus' words about the City, which some believe means that it was already Black before their arrival, which calls into question the validity of the Chantry's claims about the first darkspawn. This hasn't been clarified by the developers, so I don't see how anyone can state that one theory over another is more valid, when there isn't proof either way.

[Senya]

And Corypheus wasn't found in the Deep Roads?

[addiction21]

The dwarves claim the darkspawn suddenly appeared from underground so that's proof right there.

 

After the magisters went in the fade. Try again Mr. Neutral
 

[cjones91]

It's a matter of debate and speculation due to Corypheus' words about the City, which some believe means that it was already Black before their arrival, which calls into question the validity of the Chantry's claims about the first darkspawn. This hasn't been clarified by the developers, so I don't see how anyone can state that one theory over another is more valid, when there isn't proof either way.

Exactly,bu people need to point fingers anyway.

[cjones91]

After the magisters went in the fade. Try again Mr. Neutral
 

What is your problem exactly?I'm getting real tired of you and your hostility to every post I make.

[Senya]

It's a matter of debate and speculation due to Corypheus' words about the City, which some believe means that it was already Black before their arrival, which calls into question the validity of the Chantry's claims about the first darkspawn. This hasn't been clarified by the developers, so I don't see how anyone can state that one theory over another is more valid, when there isn't proof either way.

I see the argument of gold vs always black, but the magisters were still infected. I don't see that in dispute.

[LobselVith8]

I see the argument of gold vs always black, but the magisters were still infected. I don't see that in dispute.

 

Being corrupted doesn't necessarily mean they were the first, however, especially if it was tainted before their arrival.

[cjones91]

I see the argument of gold vs always black, but the magisters were still infected. I don't see that in dispute.

That proves they weren't the first darkspawn if the Taint had already existed before they got there.

[Lulupab]

The point still stands that Tevinter society or any Thedas society in general is absolutely powerless against corruption of its leaders. Citation: Loghain, Meredith. Unless you have the power to bring them down you can't do anything about it. So I have large bridge to sell to the people who blame every single tevinter citizen for the blights

[Master Warder Z_]

That proves they weren't the first darkspawn if the Taint had already existed before they got there.

 

That doesn't prove anything of the sort.

 

Whether or not the taint existed before their arrival is entirely irrelevant given that Thedas was only exposed to it after their expedition.

[dragonflight288]

The point still stands that Tevinter society or any Thedas society in general is absolutely powerless against corruption of its leaders. Citation: Loghain, Meredith. Unless you have the power to bring them down you can't do anything about it. So I have large bridge to sell to the people who blame every single tevinter citizen for the blights

 

In that sense, it would be more fair to blame the Tevinter magisters who went into the city rather than mages in general. 

 

Especially mages who are born, live and die centuries, even milennia after the event occurred. 

 

Strictly my opinion of course. 

 

And even then, it's not confirmed that they were the first darkspawn. Chances are they were the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not necessarily the first darkspawn. 

 

We know from the Architect that awakened darkspawn can't hear the call of the Old Gods, but all the regular darkspawn can.

[cjones91]

That doesn't prove anything of the sort.

 

Whether or not the taint existed before their arrival is entirely irrelevant given that Thedas was only exposed to it after their expedition.

Actually it does,Darkspawn are born of the Taint so if it had already existed then chances are at some point unrecorded in history there were darkspawn moving around.It makes the dwarve's claim of the spawn coming from underground plausible.

[QueenofFereldan]

Putting in my two cents on this...I have actually began to sympathize with the Templars more than before. Yes, the way they treat mages is terrible, but there are two extremes to that spectrum. You have the Templar extreme that is Meredith: believing no mage can be saved and they must be watched or killed if there is even a slight suspicion they are possessed or blood mage. Now you have the Mage extreme: Tevinter. This is self-explanatory with what the magisters do. Slavery, rituals, sacrifices...things that make mages look really bad in general. In a way, if you give mages too much freedom, it may end up like Tevinter. However, if you give them too little...well, they go crazy.

 

If the Templars and Chantry go with the route of watching mages until they complete their Harrowing, then the problems between them would be lessened. Not completely gone...because you will always have those at the extreme ends of either spectrum. But the Circle could be use to help protect the mages as well as others, until the mages have control and complete their Harrowing.

 

Besides, there are good Templars who do wish to help the mages and not treat them like some do.

[addiction21]

That proves they weren't the first darkspawn if the Taint had already existed before they got there.

 

It proves nothing because that could of been a immediate change the moment they broke thru the fade or that it was always that they but since they were the first to tear the fade in such a massive way it allowed the taint thru or that they brought it back with them.

 

No Darkspawn or taint.

 

Magisters do their thing.

 

Now there are DarkSpawn and the taint.

 

What the connection is is unclear. Why Darkspawn first appear underground is unclear but it was after the magisters doing their business.
 

[DuskWanderer]

Fixing the templar order starts with their hiring standards. The Chantry looks to folks with a faith in the Maker first and a strong moral core afterwards. This cements poor treatment of mages, since Andrastrianism has such a dim view on magic. 

 

Following this, they need to separate the mundane from the divine in their duties. They serve the Chantry, not the Maker, and one does not equate with the other. 

 

Third, they need to promote those who have a strong moral core to teach other templars. Most templars, according to both Bethany and Carver, are fundamentally good people, but the bad ones are the ones who seem to be of high rank. 

[Senya]

Being corrupted doesn't necessarily mean they were the first, however, especially if it was tainted before their arrival.

There is no prof of anyone being tainted before them and it is strongly implied the Black City tainted them. For one, Corypheus does not appear to be aware he was tainted so it seems he was tainted very recently, most likely from the ritual going into the Fade physically or the Black City.

[BloodKaiden]

Besides, there are good Templars who do wish to help the mages and not treat them like some do.

 And I like them, but they seem to be hella rare. I'll stick to being an Apostate rather than dealing with all these Chantry/Mage problems.

[QueenofFereldan]

Same here.  Especially if it means avoid the Templars who condemn all mages.

[addiction21]

The point still stands that Tevinter society or any Thedas society in general is absolutely powerless against corruption of its leaders. Citation: Loghain, Meredith. Unless you have the power to bring them down you can't do anything about it. So I have large bridge to sell to the people who blame every single tevinter citizen for the blights

 

Pretty sure I sold you that bridge in the first place.

 

When did spewing common sense become something to be proud of? NO **** CORRUPTION OF ITS LEADERS HAPPEN AND HAVE HAPPENED THRUOUT HISTORY IN THAT SETTING.

 

I had no idea this was a point that people with power could do bad things because they have the power to do bad things.

 

Really I don't think anyone is trying to argue the powerful can be or often are corrupted.
 

[A Clever Name]

Putting in my two cents on this...I have actually began to sympathize with the Templars more than before. Yes, the way they treat mages is terrible, but there are two extremes to that spectrum. You have the Templar extreme that is Meredith: believing no mage can be saved and they must be watched or killed if there is even a slight suspicion they are possessed or blood mage. Now you have the Mage extreme: Tevinter. This is self-explanatory with what the magisters do. Slavery, rituals, sacrifices...things that make mages look really bad in general. In a way, if you give mages too much freedom, it may end up like Tevinter. However, if you give them too little...well, they go crazy.

 

If the Templars and Chantry go with the route of watching mages until they complete their Harrowing, then the problems between them would be lessened. Not completely gone...because you will always have those at the extreme ends of either spectrum. But the Circle could be use to help protect the mages as well as others, until the mages have control and complete their Harrowing.

 

Besides, there are good Templars who do wish to help the mages and not treat them like some do.

This.  Preach, brotha/sista.

Spoiler

  

[TheKomandorShepard]

What does being the protagonist have to do with anything? If you take Hawke as a mage then he is still a mage. I was a blood mage in DA: O but I didn't go on a massive killing spree when the options presented themselves and it wasn't played upon at all with the completion of that game that a Blood mage/Grey Warden killed the Archdemon which still bugs me. Bethany didn't cause disaster because she is a good person and not at all likely to harm anyone despite also being a mage. You really need to stop looking at a mage as just another mage and see them for the person that they are. I have no idea where you even got that from Morrigan...how exactly is she stupid evil? If anything she is one of the most capable mages we have met. She even says she bares the templars no ill well when they hunted her as she understands they are doing what they believe. She didn't cause disaster because why would she? She even saves the Grey Wardens from death with the ritual at the end of the game. How is this evil?

 

Forgot about the circle teachings with Hawke and Bethany so I stand corrected. So it is possible to recieve study in magic outside a Circle of Magi and not be a raging lunatic who tries to kill everyone around them then? Good to see we can agree on that. In all fairness, I can't look on Tevinter as we haven't been there yet but I suspect there are mages there who don't support the slavery of elves or use of demons to get ahead.

 

So do you blames the mages for resisting a society that wants to turn them Tranquil on a whim or lock them in prison for simply being born a mage? It's all about survival, although I've always been in the mindset of if someone comes wishing me hurt I have a right to defend myself no matter the circumstance. If the Templars came to take away my sister and I'm not a mage I would resist them. No order/organization should have the right to kick in your door when you are innocent of any crime.

Because protagonist is special he never have to deal with any consequences of being mage, blood mage , templar or reaver.So it doesn't matter as you control actions of your protagonist and can't lost it and become possessed it never is an even issue for mage protagonist.When person is a walking bomb and threat to society they will be treated it is how laws and secuirty work they don't care what kind of person you are they care if you are threat or not.

She want to the warden do disck*** moves just for that sake and refuse to help peoples that may help you more here .

 

Yes so what as i said that don't change fact that they are walking bombs and as i said it is gamble where you can only lose.Yeah good luck with that they are tiny minority that ends kick out of their society.

 

I never say that i blame them but you have answered yourself with "It's all about survival"  

 

Crime is when someone break the law if law says that being mage is a crime then well it is a crime.