518 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Freedoms like when Maric rebelled the mages were forbidden from going and aiding their king in liberating their homeland while mages were sent to help Orlays we also see Gregor preventing Irving from sending additional mages to help with the initial conflict despite Duncan stepping in. There is also the ability to have and raise your own child taken from them or the right to own property. Even what they're allowed to study or learn is limited and I'm not talking about just blood magic. As we see from the notes in the broke circle whenever one of the senior mages tried to pay for his students to receive martial arts lessons he was blocked he even offered to let the training happen in his quarters.

 

Some people put tremendous value on raising a child after all. Procreation is one of our major drives after all.

 

How do you define plenty of freedoms?

 

So where exactly is the lack of freedom here? The mages are part of the orlesian based chantry system, and when a rebel force declares war on that home bodies country of resident, of course they aren't going to let their members go and aid them. You're complaining that a country didn't allow citizens to sigh up with terrorist groups to fight against them on the sole grounds that they felt like it.

 

Wilhem lived in Honnleath and had a daughter he was allowed to raise, he went to the circle, completed his training, and was allowed to live a normal life. His existence disproves your blanket assertion about mages not being able to own property, raise a family, or live a normal life wasn't something they were allowed to do. They aren't allowed to join politics but do you really want them joining politics when they have access to means of mind control at their disposal?

 

And mages aren't allowed to be trained or to learn certain things? Oh heavens above, its not like we in our civilized 21st century lives put any sort of limitations on the things we're allowed to do or learn, except bomb making, automatic weapons, large magazines, switch blades, gravity knives, butterfly knives, pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc, etc. Not being allowed to learn how to flail people with your mind or be a knight enchanter without approval doesn't sound like a stomping of freedom to me, more like a necessary step to keep others safe.

 

Cullen argues that Elthina must support the templars because they have "dominion over mages by divine right", while we have codex entries that address how some mages didn't want to be "servants of the Chantry" or live "in servitude to the Chantry", and the Bioware Blog even read how templars don't "control mages" in all areas of Thedas. Even the mage protagonist can comment how the Circle of Ferelden will do whatever the Chantry says, so I can certainly see why some characters have that point of view.
 
However, this doesn't really have anything to do with my initial comment on the subject, as I was addressing how it can potentially be an issue for people in Thedas who have this mindset.

 

Rhetoric is cheap, show me actual proof that dominion didn't mean jurisdiction in that case. Because a mayor telling the police they aren't allowed to police a city is pretty much an open invitation for anarchy and violent riots, which happened in kirkwall anyway. You can feel enslaved, you can hyperbollically claim to be enslaved, but its not the same as being enslaved. Lots of folks say they're a slave to their jobs or their families or their debt, doesn't mean its actually owning them as property and that they got no rights.

 

And why should we care if some people have this mindset, when just as many folks could have the mindset in the opposite degree?

[LobselVith8]

There is no prof of anyone being tainted before them and it is strongly implied the Black City tainted them. For one, Corypheus does not appear to be aware he was tainted so it seems he was tainted very recently, most likely from the ritual going into the Fade physically or the Black City.

 

Corypheus' dialogue about how the City was supposed to be Golden could indicate that there may have been others who were tainted before them. The primary issue is our general lack of knowledge doesn't leave us with much information, except pieces of dialogue from Corypheus that call much into question. It's why I pointed out earlier that Corypheus doesn't necessary prove one account to be correct. We know the Magisters entered the City and were tainted, but everything else has been a matter of constant debate among fans, with the developers giving no indication as to whether or not the Magisters actually corrupted the City in the first place, or whether it was already corrupted before their arrival.

[Lulupab]

Pretty sure I sold you that bridge in the first place.
 
When did spewing common sense become something to be proud of? NO **** CORRUPTION OF ITS LEADERS HAPPEN AND HAVE HAPPENED THRUOUT HISTORY IN THAT SETTING.
 
I had no idea this was a point that people with power could do bad things because they have the power to do bad things.
 
Really I don't think anyone is trying to argue the powerful can be or often are corrupted.

But they blame all mages and Tevinter as whole for the blights. so the bridge is still up for sales

I personally agree with Imperial chantry when it blames the old gods instead of mages. Archdemons are the highest threats, aren't they? And it was under their influence and by the hand of their puppets that some Magisters entered the black city, assuming this is how it happened.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Corypheus' dialogue about how the City was supposed to be Golden could indicate that there may have been others who were tainted before them. The primary issue is our general lack of knowledge doesn't leave us with much information, except pieces of dialogue from Corypheus that call much into question. It's why I pointed out earlier that Corypheus doesn't necessary prove one account to be correct. We know the Magisters entered the City and were tainted, but everything else has been a matter of constant debate among fans, with the developers giving no indication as to whether or not the Magisters actually corrupted the City in the first place, or whether it was already corrupted before their arrival.

LoL i doesn't rly matter if they corrupted city or it was already corrupted or it was maker wrath and he cursed them or just simple they went to the place they shouldn't magisters were one who brought blight because they were power hungry end of the story.

[LobselVith8]

Wilhem lived in Honnleath and had a daughter he was allowed to raise, he went to the circle, completed his training, and was allowed to live a normal life. His existence disproves your blanket assertion about mages not being able to own property, raise a family, or live a normal life wasn't something they were allowed to do. They aren't allowed to join politics but do you really want them joining politics when they have access to means of mind control at their disposal?

 

Wilhelm living outside the Circle Tower with his wife and child (which is illegal for Circle mages, as their children legally belong to the Chantry) would suggest he likely had a royal boon for his efforts in helping free Ferelden from the Orlesian occupation.

 

And why should we care if some people have this mindset, when just as many folks could have the mindset in the opposite degree?

 

Considering that my post was in retort to someone else who brought it up, I was addressing it to a poster who did care what those specific people thought about the Chantry controlled Circles.

[Master Warder Z_]

But they blame all mages and Tevinter as whole for the blights.

 

They?

 

They Who? I blame the culture of Magocracy and the Magisters themselves.

 

From what i can tell, no one blames the entirety of Tevinter.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Wilhelm living outside the Circle Tower with his wife and child (which is illegal for Circle mages, as their children legally belong to the Chantry) would suggest he likely had a royal boon for his efforts in helping free Ferelden from the Orlesian occupation.

 

Well in that you are wrong Lobe. You see, the circle doesn't want the children of mages, we wouldn't have cases like Isolde or the amell family line if that were the case.

 

They want mage children, children who have a strong connection to the fade, which requires they be taught to whether the fades influence on themselves and use its powers responsibly to the best they can, at the circles. It's mandatory education, which is important to avoid cases like Connor or Feynriel.

[themageguy]

Sigh. These.threads can get a little nasty.

i propose an uodated system.
The order incorporates mages into their ranks.
A duo of a mage and templar. When they're investigating reports of an apostate, rather than showing a deadly force, the presence of another mage may very well help the situation. There is someone who can understand the apostate, especially if said apostate is a child.

If however, the apostate was a maleficar, using their abilities for evil, then the duo are qualified to take said apostate out.

The mages are taken in, taught how to use their abilities in a productive and ethical manner. Healing magics, protection magics, these are schools that should be encouraged. That way they can be of benefit to towns and cities as healers, guards and law enforcers.

The new order would monitor mages, both as a method to keep an eye on them, but also as a support system.

I also believe that the order could be an effective way of policing big cities. A mage can use a paralysis spell to detain a criminal for example.

[dragonflight288]

Well in that you are wrong Lobe. You see, the circle doesn't want the children of mages, we wouldn't have cases like Isolde or the amell family line if that were the case.

 

They want mage children, children who have a strong connection to the fade, which requires they be taught to whether the fades influence on themselves and use its powers responsibly to the best they can, at the circles. It's mandatory education, which is important to avoid cases like Connor or Feynriel.

 

Dialogue with Wynne and Alistair. 

 

 

The important bit is where Wynne says that all children of mages belong to the chantry as property. 

• Alistair: So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?
• Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen. And any child born to a Circle mage belongs to the Chantry.
• Alistair: I... didn't know. I'm sorry.
• Wynne: It's all right. It was a long time ago. A very long time ago.
• Alistair: Couldn't you do something about it?
• Wynne: Do what? I was weak from the birthing process and there were... no, there was nothing I could do.
• Alistair: Do you think about him?
• Wynne: All the time.

[LobselVith8]

Well in that you are wrong Lobe. You see, the circle doesn't want the children of mages, we wouldn't have cases like Isolde or the amell family line if that were the case.

 

It was already addressed in the thread about templar chastity that the Chantry takes away the children of Circle mages, so I don't see how you can genuinely say I'm in the wrong. As Gaider stated: "Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry."

[themageguy]

LoL i doesn't rly matter if they corrupted city or it was already corrupted or it was maker wrath and he cursed them or just simple they went to the place they shouldn't magisters were one who brought blight because they were power hungry end of the story.

That's right, those magisters brought the taint to thedas.

Why should all mages pay for their sins?
That would be like blaming all Germans for the actions of one man.
Or all Serbians for actions of one man.

[Master Warder Z_]

The important bit is where Wynne says that all children of mages belong to the chantry as property. 

 

Nowhere in that was it affirmed that they are chattel, yes the Chantry takes in the children of mages, orphans and alike to raise but they aren't slaves.

 

They can take tows and become a part of the chantry, but they can leave it too, Leliana was proof of that, so was the ex templar sampson, There isn't anything to indicate they are "property".

 

So i wouldn't be pushing this delusion along, its misreading the context of the word.

 

"Belongs" to the Chantry in this case, means they are responsible for the Child, as infants likely wouldn't be safe within a circle. 

[BloodKaiden]

When person is a walking bomb and threat to society they will be treated it is how laws and secuirty work they don't care what kind of person you are they care if you are threat or not.

 

She want to the warden do disck*** moves just for that sake and refuse to help peoples that may help you more here .

 

Yes so what as i said that don't change fact that they are walking bombs and as i said it is gamble where you can only lose.Yeah good luck with that they are tiny minority that ends kick out of their society.

 

I never say that i blame them but you have answered yourself with "It's all about survival"  

 

Crime is when someone break the law if law says that being mage is a crime then well it is a crime.

Wow, well if you wanna support that then more power to ya buddy. Be 'Team Templar' all day, I'll stick to being an apostate and free to live my own life.

 

Since when it being indifferent to the problems of others evil? Did you gain approval from her for not being a selfless person, yeah. The fact that she didn't want to drop everything she was doing to help individuals with every one of their little problems doesn't not make her evil. It was a freakin Blight, there were more pressing things to be handling like the darkspawn horde. She just doesn't care for other people and with her background and the way she was raised its understandable. The fact that Leliana and most others with Andraste beliefs are always pushing it on others didn't sit well with her. In my memory of playing Morrigan wasn't trying to convert anyone to her beliefs and simply disagreed with the religion. I don't agree with the term Stupid Evil when it comes to Morrigan, she is a complex character with many layers under the surface.

 

"Crime is when someone break the law if law says that being mage is a crime then well it is a crime." O.O I...I just can't even respond to this. That statement is crazy.

 

Anyway, we can agree to disagree it would seem.      

[Cainhurst Crow]

 

Dialogue with Wynne and Alistair. 

 

 

The important bit is where Wynne says that all children of mages belong to the chantry as property. 

• Alistair: So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?
• Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen. And any child born to a Circle mage belongs to the Chantry.
• Alistair: I... didn't know. I'm sorry.
• Wynne: It's all right. It was a long time ago. A very long time ago.
• Alistair: Couldn't you do something about it?
• Wynne: Do what? I was weak from the birthing process and there were... no, there was nothing I could do.
• Alistair: Do you think about him?
• Wynne: All the time.

 

 

It was already addressed in the thread about templar chastity that the Chantry takes away the children of Circle mages, so I don't see how you can genuinely say I'm in the wrong. As Gaider stated: "Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry."

 

Wynnes son was a mage so he was taken and educated, but I think you're misinterpreting what's being said. Circle mages give birth to a baby, if it has magic its raised in the circle and if not its probably put up for adoption. Chantry's run the orphanages most likely since lords and ladies probably wouldn't put up the coin, so that's how that cycle goes.

 

There isn't going to be a bunch of non-mages being raised in the circle for shits and giggles like you make it sound like. The circles not a place for a non-mage to be raised.

[BloodKaiden]

Wynnes son was a mage so he was taken and educated, but I think you're misinterpreting what's being said. Circle mages give birth to a baby, if it has magic its raised in the circle and if not its probably put up for adoption. Chantry's run the orphanages most likely since lords and ladies probably wouldn't put up the coin, so that's how that cycle goes.

 

There isn't going to be a bunch of non-mages being raised in the circle for shits and giggles like you make it sound like. The circles not a place for a non-mage to be raised.

 

And this makes it ok? I'd burn the Circle to the ground if something like this ever happened to one of my children mage or not. How anyone finds this acceptable is crazy to me.  

[Maria Caliban]

"Crime is when someone break the law if law says that being mage is a crime then well it is a crime." O.O I...I just can't even respond to this. That statement is crazy.

Yes, a crime is when you break the law. It doesn't matter what the law is.

That's not 'crazy;' that's basic English.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's right, those magisters brought the taint to thedas.

Why should all mages pay for their sins?
That would be like blaming all Germans for the actions of one man.
Or all Serbians for actions of one man.

Because it is not about sins it is about them being walking bomb and not wanting another bligh like disaster... that they mages proven how destructive even few of them can be simple because reasons like ambition and mages prove that often even in current times. 

 

Wow, well if you wanna support that then more power to ya buddy. Be 'Team Templar' all day, I'll stick to being an apostate and free to live my own life.

 

Since when it being indifferent to the problems of others evil? Did you gain approval from her for not being a selfless person, yeah. The fact that she didn't want to drop everything she was doing to help individuals with every one of their little problems doesn't not make her evil. It was a freakin Blight, there were more pressing things to be handling like the darkspawn horde. She just doesn't care for other people and with her background and the way she was raised its understandable. The fact that Leliana and most others with Andraste beliefs are always pushing it on others didn't sit well with her. In my memory of playing Morrigan wasn't trying to convert anyone to her beliefs and simply disagreed with the religion. I don't agree with the term Stupid Evil when it comes to Morrigan, she is a complex character with many layers under the surface.

 

"Crime is when someone break the law if law says that being mage is a crime then well it is a crime." O.O I...I just can't even respond to this. That statement is crazy.

 

Anyway, we can agree to disagree it would seem.      

Well i will be bo im more in team anti-mage.

indifference? again read entry about her in my link she practically encourages you to kick the dog even if it is stupid to kick one at moment so it isn't indifference.She isn't complex at all she is just jerkass that isnults everyone and encourages you to kicking dogs and don't want you to help anyone even if it is out of pure benefit unless it involves kicking someone then she want help such person pretty much she is more serious version of hk 47. 

 

It is not simple laws are determined by humans and if they set that eating a pie is a crime it will be a crime even if you think it is stupid it sill will be a law.

[StrangeStrategy]

After reading about the templar order and seeing them in the game playes of mine. i have grown to actually like  them. If you were to change the templar order how would you do it and why? For me I would have the templars hunt blood mages only and leave the peaceful mages to simply be. the circle tower should house criminals that are mages of the dark arts/blood magic. They should also be punished if they tried to provoke the mages into committing a crime and the chantry should not command the templars to have the mages worship the maker and remind them about the black city.

 

In short Templars should be less idiotic, stuck up, and more of a well order that deals with mages for the right reasons and fight demons! let the new face of the templar order begin!

 

I don't want to rain on your parade... but I will.

How do mages get their education? How can they immediately respond to unstable mages if they are spread out across the country unsupervised? How many innocents will die before a mage before Templars arrive to wherever the formerly "peaceful mage" was? ... And you're going to get all the evil mages together?! Let them band together and talk to eachother and plan? What a horrible idea! Ferelden's circle couldn't defend against that many hostile mages, even Kirkwall couldn't. The mages can't be so easily controlled.


Nice idealistic ideas (Lalala innocent until they prove they're evil idea) but the fact is one mage can cause so much devastation they need to be kept in a tower and only let out when they prove themselves. What you propose would easily make a Tevinter 2.0.

[cjones91]

Yes, a crime is when you break the law. It doesn't matter what the law is.

That's not 'crazy;' that's basic English.

That's a stupid law then,it's punishing someone for being born a certain way.

[Cainhurst Crow]

And this makes it ok? I'd burn the Circle to the ground if something like this ever happened to one of my children mage or not. How anyone finds this acceptable is crazy to me.  

Honestly? Yes.

As harsh as that is, yes. It's better. Because it reduces coddling. It reduces self-interested favoritism in a student based on blood relation. It stops weak mages from advancing up the ranks to weaken the circles as a whole.

You think its harsh? I say tough ****, your a mage and demons aren't going to take it easy on you cause your father was the first enchanter.

You want to rise in the ranks? Earn it Meritocratically. Otherwise go sign up for tranquility with the rest of the weaklings and keep your bloodline hierarchies to yourself.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's a stupid law then,it's punishing someone for being born a certain way.

Not when being born a certain way means you are walking bomb.

[Maria Caliban]

That's a stupid law then,it's punishing someone for being born a certain way.

Yes, there are stupid laws.

[cjones91]

I don't want to rain on your parade... but I will.

How do mages get their education? How can they immediately respond to unstable mages if they are spread out across the country unsupervised? How many innocents will die before a mage before Templars arrive to wherever the formerly "peaceful mage" was? ... And you're going to get all the evil mages together?! Let them band together and talk to eachother and plan? What a horrible idea! Ferelden's circle couldn't defend against that many hostile mages, even Kirkwall couldn't. The mages can't be so easily controlled.


Nice idealistic ideas (Lalala innocent until they prove they're evil idea) but the fact is one mage can cause so much devastation they need to be kept in a tower and only let out when they prove themselves. What you propose would easily make a Tevinter 2.0.

Ahh here we go with the "Free mages=Tevinter" argument.I have'nt heard that one in a while....The Rivain Circle debunks that by the way since mages there had outside contact and even families outside the Circle walls.Not once did the entire country become Tevinter 2.0 so I don't buy that assertion one bit.

[cjones91]

Yes, there are stupid laws.

And laws like that shoould be ignored since they are discriminatory.

[Cainhurst Crow]

That's a stupid law then,it's punishing someone for being born a certain way.

Your point being?