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[Probe Away]

I had an idea ages ago for this but a recent thread reminded me of it and got me thinking about it some more.

One of the most arbitrary restrictions in the trilogy is the playstyle you are forced to adopt for particular classes. If you want to play as a biotics/combat combination, you are forced to be a vanguard, meaning your power set and main weapon (shotgun) are geared for close range combat. On the other hand, if you want a tech/combat combination you have to be an infiltrator, which is geared towards stealth and range.

I realize that ME3 mitigated this a bit by mostly allowing players to choose their own weapons. There are also plenty of creative types out there who have played around with classes and taken them outside of their intended comfort zone. However, the fact remains that the power-weapon-playstyle options are still somewhat restrictive.

This pre-determination forgoes some interesting possibilities. For example, stasis and pull/lift would pair well with a sniper rifle and the assassination ability from ME1. Conversely, energy drain and defense matrix could work with a shotgun and ME1's carnage.

One way to implement this is as follows (bearing in mind that this is still a rough concept):

- When setting up a class, a player would choose two proficiencies from biotics, tech and combat, with the ability to 'double up' if desired (e.g. If someone wanted to play a pure soldier they could choose a double combat proficiency instead of also choosing biotics or tech).

- Once the proficiencies were chosen, the player would then select a 'tier 1' power from each chosen proficiency. As an example, tier 1 powers for biotics might be biotic charge, singularity and stasis, tier 1 powers for tech could be combat drone, tactical cloak and energy drain, and tier 1 combat powers might be adrenaline rush, immunity and particular weapon expertise (to boost a weapon type's normal damage and accuracy).

- Depending on what tier 1 powers were selected, the player would then select a 'tier 2' power for each proficiency. Choosing biotic charge might open up nova and reave as tier 2 powers, while choosing shotgun expertise could open up frag grenade and inferno ammo.

- Lastly, the player would select a 'tier 3' power for each proficiency. These would include 'lesser' powers such as throw, cryo blast and concussive shot, and would be limited only by the relevant proficiency, not the tier 1 or 2 powers chosen.

There are a few other ways that classes could be differentiated, including bonuses for choosing a double proficiency; e.g. pure biotics get extra force/damage for biotic powers, pure techs get faster recharge times for tech powers and pure soldiers get extra health and shields. Also, there could still be different class names which are determined by the tier 1 power combinations chosen, as long as there weren't dozens of different options.

These exact power tiers and available combinations would obviously require some thought and balancing. Combining say, biotic charge and adrenaline rush could be way too overpowered.

What do people think of that general concept? A more limited version could also be applied to MP.

[SolNebula]

I will be honest here and probably unpopular but i'm not a big fan of what they did with ME3. Mixing classes and powers is bad in my opinion. I'm more of a fan of ME1 style where each class felt unique and particular. There were specific limitations that made each gameplay different and forced the player to adopt different strategies according to the class you picked in the game.

I liked how for example the soldiers got to wear Heavy armors in ME1 and this thing was removed in ME2 and ME3. In ME3 then also the weapon restriction went away and practically you could use every weapon you pleased but this to me streamlined much of the classes where for example the soldier class lost any particular advantage.

 

I would prefer clear cut classes with restrictions and bonuses associated with them where you can replay and enjoy a different playstyle each time you play. For my experience when you are free to create the class you want it boils down to find the perfect combination and consequently streamlining lot of the fun in playing a different class. I was a hardcore Soldier player but then I went Engineer and was totally in love for the class slow-paced tactics and battles. Not using an AR was part of the challenge for me since I had to use SMGs and pistols which I would have never used if I could pick my trusty Mattock in ME2.

 

Giving to the player the possibility to build his own class mixing powers kind of defeat the purpose of challenge for me. An engineer in ME3 is far better than the soldier. So why would i bother to play as a Soldier?

 

On the contrary i'm for a return of deeper restrictions between classes where a differentiation between light/medium and heavy armor would return and weapons as well. It simply add replayability in my book and it gives us the chance to try weapons and armors we would never try if we could always choose our best/favorite weapons.

[Aurawolf]

Why not go the Skyrim way, don't give classes and just use the skills you want and level them as you use them?

[RoboticWater]

My main concern is balance. Making so many combinations work together would be absolute hell for the game designers. In my experience, the best games usually have very guided leveling systems. Because the developers aren't scrambling to make sure every combination works, they have more time to make each class feel unique. I do like choice, but I'd rather have a definitive and polished class than some hodgepodge of a character.

 

Skyrim only works (and I'm using that term very lightly) because all the perks you get are either incredibly boring or poorly unbalanced. I never really felt like the character i built, I was just some guy who was a bit better at swinging a hammer or did a bit more damage with a bow.

 

 

But honestly, i don't think customization is necessary in a squad-based game, in fact, it's a bit counter intuitive. The people you bring with you are supposed to make up for the powers you don't have. Creating a custom class, while not eliminating their usefulness entirely, would likely mitigate their overall importance to the gameplay.

[Probe Away]

I will be honest here and probably unpopular but i'm not a big fan of what they did with ME3. Mixing classes and powers is bad in my opinion. I'm more of a fan of ME1 style where each class felt unique and particular. There were specific limitations that made each gameplay different and forced the player to adopt different strategies according to the class you picked in the game.
I liked how for example the soldiers got to wear Heavy armors in ME1 and this thing was removed in ME2 and ME3. In ME3 then also the weapon restriction went away and practically you could use every weapon you pleased but this to me streamlined much of the classes where for example the soldier class lost any particular advantage.

I would prefer clear cut classes with restrictions and bonuses associated with them where you can replay and enjoy a different playstyle each time you play. For my experience when you are free to create the class you want it boils down to find the perfect combination and consequently streamlining lot of the fun in playing a different class. I was a hardcore Soldier player but then I went Engineer and was totally in love for the class slow-paced tactics and battles. Not using an AR was part of the challenge for me since I had to use SMGs and pistols which I would have never used if I could pick my trusty Mattock in ME2.

Giving to the player the possibility to build his own class mixing powers kind of defeat the purpose of challenge for me. An engineer in ME3 is far better than the soldier. So why would i bother to play as a Soldier?

On the contrary i'm for a return of deeper restrictions between classes where a differentiation between light/medium and heavy armor would return and weapons as well. It simply add replayability in my book and it gives us the chance to try weapons and armors we would never try if we could always choose our best/favorite weapons.

I don't actually think what I'm suggesting is incompatible with what you want. I agree that ME3 diluted the classes by allowing any class to use any weapon, subject only to weight considerations.

What you're talking about could actually be incorporated into this approach. For example, heavy armor could be an ability reserved exclusively for a player the chooses the double combat proficiency, while expertise in sniper rifles would require the player to use a tier 1 combat ability.

I have no issue with placing restrictions on particular classes/proficiency combinations, I just think it's silly that particular combinations aren't catered for (such as biotics + ranged combat or tech + close combat).

I think the key is balancing powers and putting the right restrictions in place to make each possible combination worthwhile.

[Probe Away]

My main concern is balance. Making so many combinations work together would be absolute hell for the game designers. In my experience, the best games usually have very guided leveling systems. Because the developers aren't scrambling to make sure every combination works, they have more time to make each class feel unique. I do like choice, but I'd rather have a definitive and polished class than some hodgepodge of a character.

Skyrim only works (and I'm using that term very lightly) because all the perks you get are either incredibly boring or poorly unbalanced. I never really felt like the character i built, I was just some guy who was a bit better at swinging a hammer or did a bit more damage with a bow.


But honestly, i don't think customization is necessary in a squad-based game. The people you bring with you are supposed to make up for the powers you don't have. Creating a custom class, while not eliminating their usefulness entirely, would likely mitigate their overall importance to the gameplay.

I take your point about balance, and that would definitely be a challenge. It could be mitigated somewhat by limiting the number of possible combinations.

However, I don't see how squadmates render customization unimportant. No matter what combination you choose under this system, your character will still be deficient in certain areas and will still have a limited power set, just like in the trilogy. It's not like you can just change your power set mid game.

All this does is open up different play styles, which actually creates opportunity for more 'niche' squadmates. A ranged biotic commando would require different support to a close quarters biotic vanguard, for example.

[Nitrocuban]

ME4 should keep the classes.

I'd like to see a fully customizable char (powers, free weapon choice ...) for New Game Plus or for a difficulty over Insanity. Can be OP and inbalanced as hell, I don't care, but it would be a big motivation to replay the SP over and over again.

[Larry-3]

I find it strange that some biotic classes do not have full access to all powers. If it was me I would allow access to all powers but make them weaker for certain biotic classes. For example: sense the Adapt is a pure biotic with a possible maximum weight bonus of plus 50 they could have the strongest Warp bubbles sense they have access to fewer weapons. A Sentinel possess both tech and biotics and they have a possible maximum weight bonus of plus 70. Their slight weight bonus means they can use a few extra heavier weapons, and they also have tech abilities so they could only have a medium-level damage Warp. As I understand it the Vanguard is half biotic half combat which leads me to believe it possess an even greater maximum weight bonus. Because it has access to more weapons it could have a lighter version of Warp.

[windsea]

You are on the right track but here is how i would do it.

 

first you would select your class.

each class would have access to their signature power and from there you have access to that class's power pools, for example Vanguard would have both the combat and Biotics Pools. There would be limitations on what powers you can have together, for example you can not have more then one armor powers.

 

If playable races are in the game then having racial bonuses/limits to them could be cool, like a increase to their race-made weapon damage and changes to their powers. For example Asari can have biotics no matter the class whereas Geth would not allow to use Biotics but they would have their unique tech powers like hunter mode.

[Oni Changas]

Love the idea, Probe. I would also like to see more rpg elements such as leveling powers based partially on usage.

[Probe Away]

You are on the right track but here is how i would do it.

first you would select your class.
each class would have access to their signature power and from there you have access to that class's power pools, for example Vanguard would have both the combat and Biotics Pools. There would be limitations on what powers you can have together, for example you can not have more then one armor powers. Not very IMO.

If playable races are in the game then having racial bonuses/limits to them could be cool, like a increase to their race-made weapon damage and changes to their powers. For example Asari can have biotics no matter the class whereas Geth would not allow to use Biotics but they would have their unique tech powers like hunter mode.

My only issue with that is that the class power still limits the playstyle, as I described above. e.g. the biotics/combat combo -vanguard - would still be based around charge, lending itself to close combat. How differently would a vanguard actually play if you chose warp instead of shockwave, or cryo ammo instead of incendiary ammo?

I like the idea of different species bonuses on top of the pure attribute bonuses. An Asari 'adept' would have the most powerful biotics of any class/species combo.

[windsea]

My only issue with that is that the class power still limits the playstyle, as I described above. e.g. the biotics/combat combo -vanguard - would still be based around charge, lending itself to close combat. How differently would a vanguard actually play if you chose warp instead of shockwave, or cryo ammo instead of incendiary ammo?

I like the idea of different species bonuses on top of the pure attribute bonuses. An Asari 'adept' would have the most powerful biotics of any class/species combo.

I get what you saying but the power are more iconic for the class the combination. 

 

Say you play a sentinel/tech&biotic but you have biotic charge then that class is going to feel like a "vanguard" but with a more limited selection of close range skills set.

 

 

But i think i get it now

 

You need to do away with power types limitation completely and let the classes be their signature power/playstyle. 

 

The class would be pre-made builds for you start off from. Vanguard are chargers, infiltrator are sneak/snipers, sentinel are juggernaut/protection beaker, engineer are summoner/protection beaker,  Adepts are crowd control/dps and Solders are gunners/dps.  Here is where youwould add stasis to your sniper.

 

Then add in a create-a-class, where no power are assigned. Allow you to pick from the skills and class passive but there would have a balancing system in place to prevent OP builds, so no cloak and charge. 

 

 

 

Also a create your own skill/passive system would be cool but it would be a pain to balance so it is not worth it, but it is still fun to think about.

 

for passive I'm thinking something along the lines of having the six slot/upgrade format with a set magnitude for each slot and diminishing returns when you have the same bonus in multiple slots. (So going full in on power Damage would get you the highest power Damage bonus but in terms of total possible passive magnitude it would be the lowest.)

 

For powers, archetypes with preset damage, recharge speed, and so on where you are pick the type of damage but not what the power is doing, is the only where i can see it working. For example creating a fire version of  Electric Slash.

[SolNebula]

In any case give us that sweet omni-bows for stealth kills!!!