28 réponses à ce sujet

[SloppyFarts]

Well, I was finally inspired to play through DAII.  I've got one pretty extensive playthrough of Origins and Awakenings under my belt from a few years ago.  My wife had played DAII quite a lot, so I wanted to get through it before DA next comes out.  She had purchased most DLC, so I had access to that.

 

I would describe my role play experience as a character little engaged with his peripheral partners and devastated by the total death of his family.  As the game went on, Hawke became less and less interested in the fate of Kirkwall and more embittered by the death his family.

 

So, the first reaction I let myself have to the game (after playing for about 4 hours) was that there simply isn't any real level design.  Compared to ME or Origins where you would enter a pivotal story element and need to manage your resources and tactics before returning to the open world, this game just doesn't even try.  Walk straight, push A (Xbox) and keep going is about all the thought you need to put into it.  I quickly realized that the actual GAME is really just an opportunity to walk around and talk to people as well as read about the history of the Imperium and the Chantry.

 

During Act I, I was really interested in the story of returning the Amulet to the Dalish and the target of acquiring 50 S was compelling enough.  I wandered around from quest to quest doing whatever the game seemed to suggest was the most profitable side-item.  I got confused about what were the featured quests and which were the very minor variety.  I couldn't decipher what I was supposed to do and what I could afford to ignore.  For example, you would get a "quest" that something is troubling Bethany and you should talk to her.  I'd go talk to her and it would be over in 20 seconds with no continuing action.  I went around like that waiting through load screens before I decided to get very economical with my questing.  The little "quests" where you return an item to someone were particularly annoying at first as they sound impressive enough by their title, but end up simply being an accidental fetch completion.  I actually ended up doing a lot of these because it was easy money.

 

Act I quickly became about not wasting time for me.  I got my 50 S and paid my way into the expedition only to be told that I couldn't leave.  I had to save the elf kid because (I think) it was a Main Story item.  Since I had casually watched my wife play, I was expecting that to add a party member - of course it didn't.  After that, I was left to wander around and discover what was preventing me from continuing with the story.  At this point, it would have been really helpful if the game had highlighted the particular side quests that would result in additional party members, but I was left to just do quests in whatever order seemed most important to my particular role playing style.  As a result, I simply never encountered Isabella or Fenris while somehow completing the magic number of items to let me proceed into the DRoads.  I did manage to complete the quest that results in Sebastian as a party member.  Great, another support rogue.

 

I was playing as a male rogue, and I was hoping from the outset to play as a support archer who occasionally used blades.  However, there was only a single warrior in my game, so I was kinda forced to play with an action style that was the opposite of what I was expecting.  This stunk.  I kept playing thinking that there would be another character added to my group and that I couldn't possibly MISS something so crucial to gameplay tactics as a second tank, but my wife finally revealed to me mid-way through Act II that I'd missed my only chance to recruit another warrior - bummer.

 

As an aside - why is there no quick key button to switch weapon configs?  As a rouge, I would have really liked to have switched weapons without going into the inventory . . . .

 

So in my game, Bethany died.  She was really the only character I cared about in act I, so that really stunk.  As I played through act II, I found the romance options really really silly.  My hardened refugee, half-criminal guy who lost both his siblings was not going to try and woo Aveline away from her toe-stubbing guard crush.  Nor was he going to put up with Merrill's obvious lack of esteem and guilt. "Hey, we've all lost parts of our lives here lassy."  I suppose Isabella would have been a good match for him.  Too bad they never met.

 

So then - mom gets frankensteined by a serial killer.  At this point, I think my Hawke probably would have become like a crazy control freak who whiles away the hours either planning how he would kill himself or pushes everyone out of his way as he basically just does whoever and whatever he wants.  I guess the option to be an A-hole is kind of in the game, but I was still kind of expecting to encounter more companions, so I didn't play that up.  Besides, I have an estate to protect now.

 

Finally, the acts are out of order.  I liked the Act II climax as I think the Qunari are a very interesting race.  I thought the Act II main plot was the best part of the game.  Instead of Hawke defeating the Qunari and going on to resolve the Templar/Mage dispute (then becoming Viscount).  I think he should have resolved the Temp/Mag conflict in Act II and defeated the Q leader as the end of Act III which results in all out religious conflict in the region and the destruction of Kirkwall.  As it was, I had to ask my (real life) wife at the beginning of Act III - "What story is even left here?  My family is dead and the Q's have all gone.  Are we just going to have an entire act dealing with political bickering?"  -Yes

[tirnoney]

There's a rule in writing that you should think about the worst thing that could happen to your character, then make it even worse. Unfortunately the DA2 writers went a bit overboard in an attempt to compensate for what was a much smaller premise. Orgins had the blight, the archdemon and a war ravaging the land. DA2 suffered from having a much less epic story arc, so they populated Kirkwall with crazy people and made Hawke generally impotent to stop it from self-destructing. Whatever they did with the premise though would never have been the epic adventure that Origins was. They also tried to mass effect-ify the dragon age world and that didn't quite work either so we got a drab city that basically became Hawke's prison for seven years.

Having said all that, I've still got lots of enjoyable playthroughs of what remains an unpolished game. What makes it enjoyable for me to replay is mostly the combat, but only on hard or nightmare, otherwise for anyone with experience of these sort of games it's a bit button mashy. The first couple of times I actually enjoyed the story up until becoming champion. I agree with you that Act 3 didn't feel as climactic as the end of Act 2.

How did you miss Isabela btw? There's a quest to talk to Varric after you recruit Anders which would give you the Isabela cutscene when you go to the Hanged Man. Some things like Bethany dying can be avoided. Unfortunately they still take her away from you until the final battle or the DLC. I would argue that her and Carver are two of the best characters in the game and yet the writers take them away from you just as you start to get attached. There's a lot of that going on sadly. I suspect that as part of the Mass Effect approach they wanted to make your choices matter re. Bethany and Carver, but whatever you do they still have an inflexible canon story to railroad which is frustrating. Many of the problems with the game can be put down to the short development cycle and so far it appears they've taken the lessons on board for DA:I.

[SloppyFarts]

How did you miss Isabela btw? There's a quest to talk to Varric after you recruit Anders 

 

I started avoiding talking to the companions after their one hit wonder talking "quests" resulted in nothing but some extra loading 3 or 4 times.  Plus Varric was always in my party, so it seemed stupid to go to HM to talk to him.  I did talk to him at least once in there at some point though, just didn't go into HM again in A1.  I guess they needed to clue me in somehow that I had to endure that load time to get something good.  I never talked to Anders the whole game after recruitment.  I already had enough ranged support characters.

 

I wish I could have traveled around the city without finding an area exit.  Fast travel at any time would've been better.  It always felt like after I found the nearest exit, I wanted to maximize my next destination, so I usually picked the area with the most things undone which was never the HM.

[Jukaga]

You're missing the best part of the game (companion interaction) if you skip their content. The initial meetups are short, but as the relationships grow they get longer and unlock their companion quest.

[tirnoney]

You're missing the best part of the game (companion interaction) if you skip their content. The initial meetups are short, but as the relationships grow they get longer and unlock their companion quest.

Yes and I tend to be a completionist in that regard, but I can understand why the OP found the idea of a quest that seemingly leads only to a pointless conversation disappointing. In origins it worked well because all you had to do was stroll around the party camp. Making a special trip +/- a couple of loading screens for something that appears to be just an idle chat with no connection to the game doesn't work well. E.g Merril's Nice crime you have around here quest. Having companions come visit your house when they wanted to chat would have worked better, instead they wasted that mechanic on conversations with the dog. IMHO getting to know people should happen as part of the story, not trekking all the way to their house just to talk about people getting mugged in the street.

[SloppyFarts]

Yes and I tend to be a completionist in that regard, but I can understand why the OP found the idea of a quest that seemingly leads only to a pointless conversation disappointing. In origins it worked well because all you had to do was stroll around the party camp. Making a special trip +/- a couple of loading screens for something that appears to be just an idle chat with no connection to the game doesn't work well. E.g Merril's Nice crime you have around here quest. Having companions come visit your house when they wanted to chat would have worked better, instead they wasted that mechanic on conversations with the dog. IMHO getting to know people should happen as part of the story, not trekking all the way to their house just to talk about people getting mugged in the street.

 

Yes, you've understood me perfectly.  And "Nice Crime" is exactly what I was referring to.

 

There was one point in Act III (I think) when Aveline comes to your house only to ask you to come and talk to her in the keep.  At least it was a clue that it was important, but why not just talk about it at my Estate?

[Dova]

so we got a drab city that basically became Hawke's prison for seven years.
 

And this is the thing I've never understood people complain about. Kirkwall is Hawke's home. Why would he/she leave it? All they basically end up with is Leandra and Gamlen and they are there. Carver/Bethany is dead, or in the Wardens.

Lothering is destroyed and you'll get a letter from someone back in Lothering about the land being tainted from the Darkspawn so survivors had to relocate to Redcliffe because there was no chance to rebuild. So there is no point to go to Ferelden unless Hawke had the dream to become a house builder. 

The games story-line is in Kirkwall and do involve leaving to the Wounded Coast and Sundermount on the occasion. And of course your character is the Champion of the game so they aren't going to abandon Kirkwall to it's Qunari and Mage/Templar problems. If Hawke is a mage that gives her/him more of a reason to stay to help your people fight this war.

Origins had to be more open world because it involved travelling to different areas of Ferelden to gather support for the armies for that story-line.

*sigh* Only thing I found terrible about Dragon Age 2 was the repeating caves. 

[tirnoney]

And this is the thing I've never understood people complain about. Kirkwall is Hawke's home. Why would he/she leave it? All they basically end up with is Leandra and Gamlen and they are there. Carver/Bethany is dead, or in the Wardens.
Lothering is destroyed and you'll get a letter from someone back in Lothering about the land being tainted from the Darkspawn so survivors had to relocate to Redcliffe because there was no chance to rebuild. So there is no point to go to Ferelden unless Hawke had the dream to become a house builder.
The games story-line is in Kirkwall and do involve leaving to the Wounded Coast and Sundermount on the occasion. And of course your character is the Champion of the game so they aren't going to abandon Kirkwall to it's Qunari and Mage/Templar problems. If Hawke is a mage that gives her/him more of a reason to stay to help your people fight this war.
Origins had to be more open world because it involved travelling to different areas of Ferelden to gather support for the armies for that story-line.
*sigh* Only thing I found terrible about Dragon Age 2 was the repeating caves.

Maybe i came across as overly negative in describing kirkwall as a prison although the whole gallows thing is a bit symbolic. It's the railtrack story, the repeating dungeons, the locations that mostly don't change for seven years and the crazy inmates that want to kill each other that make it feel a bit prison like. But you've essentially said the same thing anyway. Hawke had to be stuck in kirkwall because of the story which is really an argument for a better story in the first place. No? Anyway, despite all that i still enjoy playing da2, repeatedly.

[Dova]

Maybe i came across as overly negative in describing kirkwall as a prison although the whole gallows thing is a bit symbolic. It's the railtrack story, the repeating dungeons, the locations that mostly don't change for seven years and the crazy inmates that want to kill each other that make it feel a bit prison like. But you've essentially said the same thing anyway. Hawke had to be stuck in kirkwall because of the story which is really an argument for a better story in the first place. No? Anyway, despite all that i still enjoy playing da2, repeatedly.

Well that's because it was a Tevinter prison turned Mage Circle/Prison as Anders calls it.

But the thing is it seems people are expecting for each Act is that BioWare could pull a "Mass Effect Citadel" in Kirkwall. Kirkwall was just for one game. In Mass Effect the Citadel changed every game and you'd always go back there. So yeah, Kirkwall did stay the same but there was no necessary reason for it to change up it's looks.

I don't follow with the story. It's basically going with the deal from Origins the Templar/Mage plight that was going on at the Circle but the Blight was there which made the Mage/Templar put on hold. Sten also mentions that the Arishok wanted to rain it's troops on Ferelden which isn't a surprise for that to be a follow up either.

It's Origins just years later with no Blight. 

[dekarserverbot]

You're missing the best part of the game (companion interaction) if you skip their content. The initial meetups are short, but as the relationships grow they get longer and unlock their companion quest.

and it sucked big dinosaur balls anyways... or maybe not. The only thing i could remember with ease is romancing Merill, everything else was a turd nightmare.
I hated emo Anders so i also lost Bethany, which left me with no healers for a while (also why should i bring "Anders" and Bethany if I had already Bethany as healer?).
I realized how much hopeless all of my companions where, Varric was the only one with willpower and usefullness. But I enjoyed those lame companions in some degree, a very small one.

[cJohnOne]

Combat wise you only need one tank in fact it's preferred.  Although it might make the final battle more difficult for new players.  You can have 2 archers a tank and a healer but I usually go with merril so no healer.

[tirnoney]

and it sucked big dinosaur balls anyways... or maybe not. The only thing i could remember with ease is romancing Merill, everything else was a turd nightmare.
I hated emo Anders so i also lost Bethany, which left me with no healers for a while (also why should i bring "Anders" and Bethany if I had already Bethany as healer?).
I realized how much hopeless all of my companions where, Varric was the only one with willpower and usefullness. But I enjoyed those lame companions in some degree, a very small one.

The same Bethany issue annoyed me in my rogue playthroughs. If you take her and Anders then you don't have a warrior in the deep roads. It takes a fair bit of management on anything other than normal. The one time when I did leave Bethany behind and discovered that my dialogue option of 'Over my dead body' meant diddly-squat was awful. Some people say Bethany is better off in the circle, but that feels like metagaming to me. After years of protecting her sister from the templars, I can't imagine Hawke leaving Kirkwall for weeks without taking her along.

If you felt that way about Anders, then maybe it's best you didn't meet the other warrior. They're like two sides of the same emo coin. Fenris is pro-templar and whines constantly about how mages made his life a misery. Okay, to be fair, he's not as bad as Anders and some of the conversations he has with Isabela are hilarious.

I suppose the problem is that the story arc doesn't give them anything more important to focus on than their individual problems. In Origins you could tell Alistair to man up because there's a sodding Archdemon on the march. (Not that I did that often considering my Warden was usually trying to get him into the tent, but you know what I mean.) You can't tell Anders and Fenris to shut up about mages and templars because there is nothing else going on.

The only effective solution I've found is to play a S&S warrior. That way you only really need Varric with an upgraded sabotage tree. Isabela with a similar spec makes a great addition. The party banter is often hilarious. Add Merrill to the mix for even more fun. In fact, if you spec yourself as a sabotage rogue, you can get away with runnng with Aveline and another rogue most of the time even on hard difficulty. Mages optional.

[tirnoney]

and it sucked big dinosaur balls anyways... or maybe not. The only thing i could remember with ease is romancing Merill, everything else was a turd nightmare.I hated emo Anders so i also lost Bethany, which left me with no healers for a while (also why should i bring "Anders" and Bethany if I had already Bethany as healer?).I realized how much hopeless all of my companions where, Varric was the only one with willpower and usefullness. But I enjoyed those lame companions in some degree, a very small one.

Sorry, confused you with the OP. Should pay more attention really. My opinion is the same anyway.

[Dutchess]

And this is the thing I've never understood people complain about. Kirkwall is Hawke's home. Why would he/she leave it? All they basically end up with is Leandra and Gamlen and they are there. Carver/Bethany is dead, or in the Wardens.

Lothering is destroyed and you'll get a letter from someone back in Lothering about the land being tainted from the Darkspawn so survivors had to relocate to Redcliffe because there was no chance to rebuild. So there is no point to go to Ferelden unless Hawke had the dream to become a house builder. 

The games story-line is in Kirkwall and do involve leaving to the Wounded Coast and Sundermount on the occasion. And of course your character is the Champion of the game so they aren't going to abandon Kirkwall to it's Qunari and Mage/Templar problems. If Hawke is a mage that gives her/him more of a reason to stay to help your people fight this war.

Origins had to be more open world because it involved travelling to different areas of Ferelden to gather support for the armies for that story-line.

*sigh* Only thing I found terrible about Dragon Age 2 was the repeating caves. 

 

There is very little reason why Hawke would (continue to) consider Kirkwall his/her home. Especially after Leandra's death there is little keeping you there. That Lothering is gone doesn't mean there is no reason to return to Ferelden. You can move back to your home country without it meaning you move back to the same little village. There should be plenty of other cities and villages in Ferelden where you can start anew, likely in better circumstances than in Kirkwall (i.e. no indentured servitude). After the Deep Roads mission Hawke is rich, you could get a nice home where ever you want. It's not like the Hawke family hasn't been moving from village to village to hide from the templars for years. How bad could one more move be when it means you get away from a city filled with templars and crazy people?

 

Hawke is forced into a very passive attitude throughout the game, only taking action when issues slap you the face. Even the Champion thing isn't really something you worked hard for or expressed any ambition towards before your mercenary ass got dragged into it. So why would Hawke suddenly feel a great sense of responsibility? After becoming Champion you lie in bed for three years before you crawl out of it and check in on how Meredith and Orsino are doing. Despite the fancy title you have no real authority anyway, so nothing ever gave the strong impression you could change something as big as the Circle system. 

 

The game says "this is your home now" but gives very few reasons why you would feel that way and takes the most compelling away (your family). You act like Hawke's reasons for staying are all extremely obvious but even the forced aspects of Hawke's personality (i.e. passive) do not mesh well at all with the mysterious reasons that force you to sit in Kirkwall for eight years.

 

 

OP, it's a shame you missed Isabela and Fenris. They are my favorite companions. Reading your review I don't think it will be enough to have you try another playthrough, but I agree with others here that the companions and companion interaction (however limited and restricted) is the one saving grace of this game.

[tirnoney]

I'm reminded of that act 2 chat you have with Varric when he says something like "to be honest Hawke, I thought there might be a chance you'd return to Fereldan." I looked for the "Good idea, I'll go pack." option but it wasn't there.

[SloppyFarts]

Combat wise you only need one tank in fact it's preferred.  Although it might make the final battle more difficult for new players.  You can have 2 archers a tank and a healer but I usually go with merril so no healer.

 

I would have appreciated the opportunity to discover that for myself.

 

For most boss fights, I fell back to being an archer anyway.  Although it sometimes ended up being me alone running around waiting for the dog spell to recharge and throwing vials at the minions while getting in a precise shot or two.

 

Regarding using actual strategy to play the game - I didn't really spend much time thinking about it.  Unlike Origins, I did almost nothing with the tactics slots, and I barely even looked at the other characters' skill trees or attributes.  Perhaps some distance from the game will inspire me to try again on a higher difficulty and get more into that aspect.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I understand the feeling well. There were many occasions when my Hawke's would have happily packed it in and gone back to Ferelden. If I had my way, Hawke would have left once Leandra died (unless Bethany was in the Gallows), and if the option had been there, Hawke would have walked away during The Final Straw and left Meredith and Orsino to fight it out amongst themselves.

[tirnoney]

I would have appreciated the opportunity to discover that for myself.

For most boss fights, I fell back to being an archer anyway. Although it sometimes ended up being me alone running around waiting for the dog spell to recharge and throwing vials at the minions while getting in a precise shot or two.

Regarding using actual strategy to play the game - I didn't really spend much time thinking about it. Unlike Origins, I did almost nothing with the tactics slots, and I barely even looked at the other characters' skill trees or attributes. Perhaps some distance from the game will inspire me to try again on a higher difficulty and get more into that aspect.

Just to second what dutchess said above. Make sure you get Isabela and Fenris. The latter can be annoying, but he has some depth to his character. Isabela is easily my favourite character in the game. Her party banter dialogue alone suggests she has a lot more intelligence and insight into the craziness of Kirwall and mages vs. templars than the others. (apart from maybe Varric). She's particularly good if you like being a sarcastic Hawke.

Oh, and if you were male Hawke, then maybe try the female version. Many people, myself included consider her voice acting to be more convincing than the male version.

[Jukaga]

Sarcastic ladyhawke + Isabela is a really fun relationship, I'd go so far as to say it's the 'canon' romance given Isabela's importance to the main plotline and the convenient ship to sail away on at the end.

[tirnoney]

Sarcastic ladyhawke + Isabela is a really fun relationship, I'd go so far as to say it's the 'canon' romance given Isabela's importance to the main plotline and the convenient ship to sail away on at the end.

Is it as good with male Hawke? Never tried that one.

Hawke: "And then you wake up and find someone's stolen your trousers."
Isabela: "That's when you know it's a party."

Although for me it still doesn't beat:

Hawke: "Carry on, I love to eavesdrop."
Varric: "Hawke said sarcastically."
Hawke: "You know I hate it when you do that."
Varric: "Hawke muttered in an angry aside to the dwarf."

[Jukaga]

Is it as good with male Hawke? Never tried that one.

 

I'm not sure, I like ladyHawke's voice too much to play broHawke.

[tirnoney]

I'm not sure, I like ladyHawke's voice too much to play broHawke.

I usually end up creating avatars of myself down to hair and eye colour. It's a habit I keep trying to break but then five minutes of listening to male Hawke or male Shep and I'm back in the character creator. In my mind, a renegade or aggressive male version would be cool to play but then it's hard to beat the epic scene of femShep headbutting a Krogan. And this is getting really off-topic now. Sorry.

[Jukaga]

I usually end up creating avatars of myself down to hair and eye colour. It's a habit I keep trying to break but then five minutes of listening to male Hawke or male Shep and I'm back in the character creator. In my mind, a renegade or aggressive male version would be cool to play but then it's hard to beat the epic scene of femShep headbutting a Krogan. And this is getting really off-topic now. Sorry.

Not at all, I'm a huge femShep and ladyHawke fan. You can't beat that combination of sassy, competent and sexy they both have,

[HTTP 404]

welcome to the party, sloppyfarts!  I too roleplayed my Hawke very similar to yours.  Protect Family and Protect Home (Kirkwall).  After Act 2, defending against the Qunari was an awesome way to end Act 2.  Bethany was a Grey Warden by Act 2 and I had little interest in the Circle and Templar conflict.  It would have been a nice option to burn the port and let the mages and Templars fight it out, gather a group of Kirkwall defenders consisting of allies made throughout the game and the city guard to take care of whoever came out of that battle.  Having to choose a side that did not have any of my empathy was lackluster to say the least.  This third option would have resulted in the same ending anyways, just would have liked how I got there.

 

I remember mentioning this years ago and Gaider responded rather harshly to my opinion.  <shrug> it was a tough time for him, he got a lot of negative flak for Da2 which wasn't warranted really.  The side stories and ACT 2 were amazing and ACT 3 would be good if I role played as a Templar or a mage.  Alas, I did not, I don't play as a mage and I always send Bethany with the Wardens.

[Magdalena11]

I managed to miss Isabela first time, probably because I kept ignoring her quest marker (I'm already doing 30 side quests, I'll come back for hers later....)  If I had known she was a companion, I would have talked to her as soon as I finished Tranquility.  I was a DWR, so I was fine with Varric as an archer, but I love her banter, and the romance arc is really nice too.