Having to let Tallis go with the list, did royally ****** me off...
I confess, that was a very strange oversight in writing. I also think there was confusion whether it was a list of spies or people who had converted to the Qun.
I guess they didn't want Hawke responsible for thousands of innocent deaths and executions.
there is just no point in arguing with you I'm just glad that other people see it too
your arrogance is unbearable well I'm out
And how stating facts is arrogance i will repeat myself did hawke failed at preventing conflicts? answer is simple s/he did...
Hawke was actually quite succesful given the circumstances. They solved every bad situation they found themselves in. You can't blame Hawke for not preventing some of the things that happened... That's like blaming the warden for not preventing the blight or the civil war. Thedas is a harsh setting, and stuff happens. Then the heroes get to work.
^ This. There are some things you just can not stop from happening, no matter how hard you try. I mean. Come on. Hawke is just one person. And in the beginning of the game has no influence whatsoever. It's not like conflicts were waiting to develop till Hawke will matter in the whole thing.
And how stating facts is arrogance i will repeat myself did hawke failed at preventing conflicts? answer is simple s/he did...
You can not prevent something which already goes on. All Hawke could do was delaying unavoidable, and minimazing damage. And I think he/she was quite succesfull at that. But of course nobody is perfect. Failing sometimes is very human thing to do. I liked that about Hawke, he/she seemed like ordinary person, who was forced to become hero rather than all-mighty, godlike kind of person. I find "I'm a goddamn hero, I succeed in everything" formula quite boring. Just because you think "failing" is quality which makes Hawke bad protagonist does not mean it's a fact. Also just cause you see Hawke's doings as nothing but failures, does not mean other people should see it like that as well.
Hawke was actually quite succesful given the circumstances. They solved every bad situation they found themselves in. You can't blame Hawke for not preventing some of the things that happened... That's like blaming the warden for not preventing the blight or the civil war. Thedas is a harsh setting, and stuff happens. Then the heroes get to work.
You mean guy who was puppet was successful from what i renember guy had 2 occasions to kill petrice s/he let her go do her thing what lead to conflict with qunari not to mention that hawke even helped her in doing that.Pretty much all he did was killing arishok what meredith could do herself not to mention that he was one who brougt idol from deep roads.But i can pretty much start point how hawke lead to that entire mess in first place but it would be long list.
You can not prevent something which already goes on. All Hawke could do was delaying unavoidable, and minimazing damage. And I think he/she was quite succesfull at that. But of course nobody is perfect. Failing sometimes is very human thing to do. I liked that about Hawke, he/she seemed like ordinary person, who was forced to become hero rather than all-mighty, godlike kind of person. I find "I'm a goddamn hero, I succeed in everything" formula quite boring. Just because you think "failing" is quality which makes Hawke bad protagonist does not mean it's a fact. Also just cause you see Hawke's doings as nothing but failures, does not mean other people should see it like that as well.
Of course he could he could do many things he could stop isabela and deliver tom to arishok he failed at it , he could kill petrice and had opportunities to do that.And as i said above there are a many things he could do to prevent or at least delay so situation could be solved.That hawke is a failure is my personal opinion that he failed at something isn't...
Hawke may have failed to prevent the Mage-Templar War, assuming they wanted to.
But they DID prevent a new war with the Qunari.
Hawke may have failed to prevent the Mage-Templar War, assuming they wanted to.
But they DID prevent a new war with the Qunari.
They didn't "war" already broke out at best hawke win that "war" but there wouldn't be war if he did what i said above and even after meredith was pretty much in her way so ari would be killed anyway.Not to mention when to mention qunari war it is girl/guy that let qunari agent go with list of qunari spies and also brought problems with kirkwall and orlais relation.
They didn't "war" already broke out at best hawke win that "war" but there wouldn't be war if he did what i said above and even after meredith was pretty much in her way so ari would be killed anyway.
The Arishok being killed by Meredith would do nothing as it wouldn't satisfy the Qun. They'd come back to avenge him.
The Arishok being killed by Meredith would do nothing as it wouldn't satisfy the Qun. They'd come back to avenge him.
Eee so they promised in the end when hawke killed him...
Also i edited my post above about qunari invasion.
Eee so they promised in the end when hawke killed him...
Also i edited my post above about qunari invasion.
The list of names is somewhat dubious as while there's spies in them, it's actually a list of Qun converts. If there's anything history has taught us, there's no greater way to create a windfall for religious devotion than murdering people for their faith. Given the Qunari are also the kind of people who stopped their last invasion because it was taking a toll on their civilian populace, a large scale massacre of the Qunari converts would have almost certainly started a new war anyway.
So Hawke may have not prevented a war and "won" the War which was only a minor skirmish versus a full-scale invasion. One which doesn't decisively settle things versus the Qunari and Thedas.
But that delay may have saved a lot of lives. As bad as the situation is in Inquisitor, I can't imagine a Full-Scale Qunari invasion would have made it any better when things went to hell.
The list of names is somewhat dubious as while there's spies in them, it's actually a list of Qun converts. If there's anything history has taught us, there's no greater way to create a windfall for religious devotion than murdering people for their faith. Given the Qunari are also the kind of people who stopped their last invasion because it was taking a toll on their civilian populace, a large scale massacre of the Qunari converts would have almost certainly started a new war anyway.
So Hawke may have not prevented a war and "won" the War which was only a minor skirmish versus a full-scale invasion. One which doesn't decisively settle things versus the Qunari and Thedas.
But that delay may have saved a lot of lives. As bad as the situation is in Inquisitor, I can't imagine a Full-Scale Qunari invasion would have made it any better when things went to hell.
It hardly matters now they have spies we have demon invasion anyway and qunari on the way with their spies in thedeas societies.It would be great weapon against qunari... there was good reason why qunari tried to sell it as weapon to duke.So yes you have to deal with qunari spies 1 way or another or you will deal with qunari invasion with spies in your societies good luck with that.
I doubt that qunari would invade during demon invasion and even that probably enemy mine situation pretty much that they will attack after when demon invasion will weaken thedas with spies as i said hardly helps thedas but for qunari it is best scenario...
It hardly matters now they have spies we have demon invasion anyway and qunari on the way with their spies in thedeas societies.It would be great weapon against qunari... there was good reason why qunari tried to sell it as weapon to duke.So yes you have to deal with qunari spies 1 way or another or you will deal with qunari invasion with spies in your societies good luck with that.
I doubt that qunari would invade during demon invasion and even that probably enemy mine situation pretty much that they will attack after when demon invasion will weaken thedas with spies as i said hardly helps thedas but for qunari it is best scenario...
So what's the difference between converts and spies, in your view?
Though this does get a little much into "What if?"
So what's the difference between converts and spies, in your view?
Though this does get a little much into "What if?"
In that case difference doesn't matter as it is said some may have leave qun and still are on that list but many still are spies for qunari and need to removed.
It would puzzle me if someone like the warden stayed out of the events that unfold in DA2 and DAI. Imo he/she is too important to not at least have his/her assistance requested by someone.
It makes sense really. The events of DA2 wern't huge world changing events on the surface, but smaller ones happening and building tension which is what led to the finales of Act 2 and 3. Rites of Anullment and skirmishes with the Qunari aren't unheard of either, so there's no reason to assume it'd turn out as it did.
On top of that, they are a Grey Warden. Unless it's to do with the Darkspawn, it's not there concern and if Stroud/Alistair are to be taken at there word, something is going down with the Grey Wardens and The Warden is probably involved.
A big whole in the sky threatening to eat the world on the other hand pretty much demands everyone chip in and help prevent it.
<Various stuff>
Why would Hawke kill Petrice? S/he's not a sociopath. You can even tell Elthina about it early on and she does jack about it, just like she does with the Mage/Templar problem.
At what point would Hawke stop Isabela? I'll admit it's been a while since I've last played it, but if I recall, she asks Hawkes help in getting it and the buggers off while in a different room. Either before Hawke knew she was after it for herself or before he could convince her to change her mind.
No, the act 2 finale isn't a war, it's just a sacking of a city. And no, Hawke wasn't the one to bring the Lyrium Idol to the surface. Batrand was.
Either way, you're blaming Hawke for things that weren't in there control. It'd be like expecting The warden to know how to take down the Blight without the treaties and Flemeth, Alistair and Riorden there to give them vital information, then calling them rubbish because the armies had no obligation to help and they didn't know they had to make the killing blow.
Moving on! What would you guys say the likelihood of The Warden having a chance to talk to Leliana, Morrigan and Alistair if they romanced them? No Zev unfortunately 
he was one who brougt idol from deep roads.
Nope. That was Bartrand. And he was going into the deep roads anyway. It was not even Hawke's idea to make the expedition in the first place so blaming Hawke for that seems really forced.
Of course he could he could do many things he could stop isabela and deliver tom to arishok he failed at it , he could kill petrice and had opportunities to do that.And as i said above there are a many things he could do to prevent or at least delay so situation could be solved.That hawke is a failure is my personal opinion that he failed at something isn't...
Conflict with qunari couldn't be prevented. At best it could be stopped before it turned into fightings but conflict itself started in the very moment in which Isabela stole the book. From that point onwards all the tension building between qunari and rest of the people would happen anyway. If not Petrice, then someone else would plot. of course she mattered, but I doubt killing her would stop the whole thing. Qunari were not exactly liked in Kirkwall and Hawke did delay actual fightings for quite some time - qunari were staying in the city far longer than few weeks.
Moving on! What would you guys say the likelihood of The Warden having a chance to talk to Leliana, Morrigan and Alistair if they romanced them? No Zev unfortunately
Who knows. But nothing too romantic I guess, cause what then, we would be evesdroping as Inquisitor? 
On one hand it would be fun to see, on the other kinda frustrating that we can not control our Warden and talk is just going. I suppose would be bit easier with Hawke since he/she has some certain personality so it would be possible to make him/her react like our Hawke would do.
It makes sense really. The events of DA2 wern't huge world changing events on the surface, but smaller ones happening and building tension which is what led to the finales of Act 2 and 3. Rites of Anullment and skirmishes with the Qunari aren't unheard of either, so there's no reason to assume it'd turn out as it did.
On top of that, they are a Grey Warden. Unless it's to do with the Darkspawn, it's not there concern and if Stroud/Alistair are to be taken at there word, something is going down with the Grey Wardens and The Warden is probably involved.
A big whole in the sky threatening to eat the world on the other hand pretty much demands everyone chip in and help prevent it.
In retrospect you're probably right about DA2 - I do think that the qunari incident was slightly more than a skirmish though.
Would be interesting to know what was happening with the Wardens during DA2 though.
You mean guy who was puppet was successful from what i renember guy had 2 occasions to kill petrice s/he let her go do her thing what lead to conflict with qunari not to mention that hawke even helped her in doing that.Pretty much all he did was killing arishok what meredith could do herself not to mention that he was one who brougt idol from deep roads.But i can pretty much start point how hawke lead to that entire mess in first place but it would be long list.
Of course he could he could do many things he could stop isabela and deliver tom to arishok he failed at it , he could kill petrice and had opportunities to do that.And as i said above there are a many things he could do to prevent or at least delay so situation could be solved.That hawke is a failure is my personal opinion that he failed at something isn't...
Hawke is merely some Peasant, and later some Noble, and it was his/her word against Petrice and Petrice was smart to cover her tracks while having her contacts know what she was doing. There's no way Hawke would have ever been allowed to kill Petrice and get away with it and when the Viscount puts pressure on the Chantry about Petrice, if you tell him that a Mother and the Chantry are involved with the Qunari stuff, it amounts to nothing.
Hawke also didn't bring the idol out of the Deep Roads. Where did you get that idea? It was clearly Varric's brother who stole the idol than sold it to Meredith which drove her to madness.
Stop Isabela? Hawke didn't know she HAD the Qunari's book til AFTER Isabela was leading them to the relic than when the fighting starts Isabela runs off and Hawke isn't able to catch up til AFTER Isabela had escaped. So no, you cannot blame Hawke for Isabela's actions or them trusting that their friend Isabela, who earlier CAN agree to give the relic back(Which was a lie), wouldn't screw them over like Isabela does.
It's one thing to dislike Hawke, it's another thing to blame Hawke for things that AREN'T his/her fault.
Furthermore, the Grey Wardens were in Kirkwall when the Arishok went berserk. They knew it could lead to a Holy War yet they decide to leave the City to its fate, for whatever reason, while Hawke dealt with the Arishok when Hawke could have ditched town too like the Wardens did.
Who knows. But nothing too romantic I guess, cause what then, we would be evesdroping as Inquisitor?
My ideal situation is The Warden walking into Skyhold, Leliana squees adorably, they kiss, everyone else in the room gets uncomfortable, Warden takes Leliana by the hand a commandeers The Inquisitors bedroom locking them out.
I'm starting to hope that That Warden from the trailer is in fact a stand in for Hawkes LI.
Why would Hawke kill Petrice? S/he's not a sociopath. You can even tell Elthina about it early on and she does jack about it, just like she does with the Mage/Templar problem.At what point would Hawke stop Isabela? I'll admit it's been a while since I've last played it, but if I recall, she asks Hawkes help in getting it and the buggers off while in a different room. Either before Hawke knew she was after it for herself or before he could convince her to change her mind.
No, the act 2 finale isn't a war, it's just a sacking of a city. And no, Hawke wasn't the one to bring the Lyrium Idol to the surface. Batrand was.
Either way, you're blaming Hawke for things that weren't in there control. It'd be like expecting The warden to know how to take down the Blight without the treaties and Flemeth, Alistair and Riorden there to give them vital information, then calling them rubbish because the armies had no obligation to help and they didn't know they had to make the killing blow.
Moving on! What would you guys say the likelihood of The Warden having a chance to talk to Leliana, Morrigan and Alistair if they romanced them? No Zev unfortunately
Let's see she manipulated him in fist act into provoking qunari and then she was leader of the cult that caused battle and hawke did jack s*** when it came into light if he could killed her and yet he didn't.Yes you mean like he didn't kill 125412 peoples before game ends including mercenaries just to enter the warehouse...
She tells hawke what relict is and what she did then we have fight scene in warehouse if i renember qunari attack tevinter mages and guy with tome escapes and isabela go after him instead going after her hawke is like "meh lets fight" then "oh she scaped didn't see that coming". Bartrand didn't had money hawke gave him 50 sovereigns and he couldn't find money then on deep roads hawke pushed forward expedition when it stopped.
And what the heck riordan helping the warden have to do with that hawke failed or caused a lot of mess? You are stretching as hell i don't blame hawke because varric was helping him...
Nope. That was Bartrand. And he was going into the deep roads anyway. It was not even Hawke's idea to make the expedition in the first place so blaming Hawke for that seems really forced.
Conflict with qunari couldn't be prevented. At best it could be stopped before it turned into fightings but conflict itself started in the very moment in which Isabela stole the book. From that point onwards all the tension building between qunari and rest of the people would happen anyway. If not Petrice, then someone else would plot. of course she mattered, but I doubt killing her would stop the whole thing. Qunari were not exactly liked in Kirkwall and Hawke did delay actual fightings for quite some time - qunari were staying in the city far longer than few weeks.
As above same questions.
It could and by conflict i mean battle in the end of second act but no conflict wasn't in moment isabela stole the book conflict started when petrice group was provoking qunari.Not rly Petrice was head and face of anti-qunari group pretty much most likely she united them not mention she was using templars to do so. Not rly hawke didn't delayed anything pretty much petrice was always step ahead hawke and got her way could be prevented if hawke do one of things i have said.
Hawke is merely some Peasant, and later some Noble, and it was his/her word against Petrice and Petrice was smart to cover her tracks while having her contacts know what she was doing. There's no way Hawke would have ever been allowed to kill Petrice and get away with it and when the Viscount puts pressure on the Chantry about Petrice, if you tell him that a Mother and the Chantry are involved with the Qunari stuff, it amounts to nothing.
Hawke also didn't bring the idol out of the Deep Roads. Where did you get that idea? It was clearly Varric's brother who stole the idol than sold it to Meredith which drove her to madness.
Stop Isabela? Hawke didn't know she HAD the Qunari's book til AFTER Isabela was leading them to the relic than when the fighting starts Isabela runs off and Hawke isn't able to catch up til AFTER Isabela had escaped. So no, you cannot blame Hawke for Isabela's actions or them trusting that their friend Isabela, who earlier CAN agree to give the relic back(Which was a lie), wouldn't screw them over like Isabela does.
It's one thing to dislike Hawke, it's another thing to blame Hawke for things that AREN'T his/her fault.
Furthermore, the Grey Wardens were in Kirkwall when the Arishok went berserk. They knew it could lead to a Holy War yet they decide to leave the City to its fate, for whatever reason, while Hawke dealt with the Arishok when Hawke could have ditched town too like the Wardens did.
Eee no? He had 2 opportunities to kill her without anyone knowing that it was him... Not to mention that that f*** qunari shoot her in the middle of the chantry and got away with it...
Read above.
Nope istead he started fight that went after her what a suprise that she escaped when he didn't went after her immediately... and yes isabela is reliable as jack sparrow...
I wouldn't matter as i said meredith would take care of everything. 
Let's see she manipulated him in fist act into provoking qunari and then she was leader of the cult that caused battle and hawke did jack s*** when it came into light if he could killed her and yet he didn't.Yes you mean like he didn't kill 125412 peoples before game ends including mercenaries just to enter the warehouse...
She tells hawke what relict is and what she did then we have fight scene in warehouse if i renember qunari attack tevinter mages and guy with tome escapes and isabela go after him instead going after her hawke is like "meh lets fight" then "oh she scaped didn't see that coming". Bartrand didn't had money hawke gave him 50 sovereigns and he couldn't find money then on deep roads hawke pushed forward expedition when it stopped.
And what the heck riordan helping the warden have to do with that hawke failed or caused a lot of mess? You are stretching as hell i don't blame hawke because varric was helping him...
People get manipulated every day. Murder isn't the solution most people go for. Besides, Andrastinism is truely believed in Thedas. Killing a priest is not something but the most heinous would do. He could have told Elthina, but his just some foreign refugee, who the hell is going to believe him over a Sister? In Act II, he can and she simply says she step in when it's time. Name someone Hawke kills, who's situation is the same as Petrice. Otherwise, that's just a pointless number. EDIT: Considering the "Glass Half Empty" feel of this world, killing Petrice would would probably resulted in her becoming a Martyr for the antiQunari cause. Or based on the rest of the game, a Pride Demon This is purely speculation on my part though
Because when people come at you with magic and pointy object, it's best to ignore them.
And? Fixing problems don't count as failures, even if it did lead them to the Idol, noone knew it existed so it's not going to effect the outcome one way or another.
It has nothing to do with that. You're misunderstanding. If Cailin didn't send them to ensure the beacon was lit. If Flemeth didn't save them, The Warden would have died and wouldn't have been given the directions needed. If they didn't manage to obtain the treaties, some of the Four Armies may have refused the call instead focusing on there. If Riordan never turned up in Fereldan, none of the Wardens would have known about killing the Archdemon costing a Grey Warden life and could have all focused themselves elsewhere on the battle opting to take the AD down with catapults and ballista. But even then Morrigan could have explained but that's still information being given to them to ensure they get the job done right.
Circumstances were on The Wardens side. They weren't on Hawkes.
People get manipulated every day. Murder isn't the solution most people go for. Besides, Andrastinism is truely believed in Thedas. Killing a priest is not something but the most heinous would do. He could have told Elthina, but his just some foreign refugee, who the hell is going to believe him over a Sister? In Act II, he can and she simply says she step in when it's time. Name someone Hawke kills, who's situation is the same as Petrice. Otherwise, that's just a pointless number.
Because when people come at you with magic and pointy object, it's best to ignore them.
And? Fixing problems don't count as failures, even if it did lead them to the Idol, noone knew it existed so it's not going to effect the outcome one way or another.
It has nothing to do with that. You're misunderstanding. If Cailin didn't send them to ensure the beacon was lit. If Flemeth didn't save them, The Warden would have died and wouldn't have been given the directions needed. If they didn't manage to obtain the treaties, some of the Four Armies may have refused the call instead focusing on there. If Riordan never turned up in Fereldan, none of the Wardens would have known about killing the Archdemon costing a Grey Warden life and could have all focused themselves elsewhere on the battle opting to take the AD down with catapults and ballista. But even then Morrigan could have explained but that's still information being given to them to ensure they get the job done right.
Circumstances were on The Wardens side. They weren't on Hawkes.
Since when hawke is pacifist as i said there was no obstacle to not kill her for it... Ee kelder
They weren't after hawke they were fighting each other tevinter mages and qunari... and yes isabela ignored them...
I wasn't talking about failure i was talking that without hawke bartrand wouldn't simple touch idol because first he didn't had money and second they could go without further assistance of hawke so either it would take rly long time for bartrand to get there without hawke and becuase after the blight deep roads were cleaner for a time.
What the heck you are talking about no one trashes hawke because flemeth helped him what you try to do with the warden i don't what insane logic that is but as i said you are streaching to trash warden because flemeth for example saved the warden when flemeth did same to hawke... And no circumstances weren't on warden side considering they were just small group of traitors and they had fix everyone problems as i said warden succeeded hawke could if he wouldn't be clueless idiot which doesn't take advantage of the situation.
Let's see she manipulated him in fist act into provoking qunari
It was the other way around. She wanted qunari to kill Hawke and use that as excuse to provoke people into rebelion against qunari. But she failed cause Hawke obviously survived. Even more. If after whole that mess you went to Arishok and told him about it you actually could gain his respect. You had even option to tell Arishok about Petrice involvement and he didn't care about it.
Not rly hawke didn't delayed anything pretty much petrice was always step ahead hawke
Like I just said she failed to get Hawke killed and rebelion started in first act. That's quite some time before the end of second one. If that's not delaying conflict idk what that is lol.
Nope istead he started fight that went after her what a suprise that she escaped when he didn't went after her immediately... and yes isabela is reliable as jack sparrow...
You do know that if you have high enough freindship with her, and you let her go with the tome she actually comes back with it and gives it back to the Arishok? She is reliable and loyal if she has good reason for that.
Not rly Petrice was head and face of anti-qunari group pretty much most likely she united them not mention she was using templars to do so.
You completely ignore things like poisonous gas situation. It was caused by people who were pissed at qunari, cause their family/important freinds/whoever decided to join the qun. Many people disliked qunari in general, best example being Viscount himself. Why he did not like the idea of his son hanging out with qunari so much? Like I said, surerly Petrice messed a lot as, but it's not like she was the only cause of conflict. Even when she killed Saemus at the same time Arishok was as well pissed cause city guards were trying to make him extradite some qun converted criminals. He also was generally disgusted by Kirkwall's corruption and started his attack also to correct it by force and bring order dictated by qun.
I will not even comment idol thing cause it's like blaming Hawke for not being able to predict future. But hey maybe blame Varric? He talked Hawke into getting money in the first place.
Since when hawke is pacifist as i said there was no obstacle to not kill her for it... Ee kelder
They weren't after hawke they were fighting each other tevinter mages and qunari... and yes isabela ignored them...
I wasn't talking about failure i was talking that without hawke bartrand wouldn't simple touch idol because first he didn't had money and second they could go without further assistance of hawke so either it would take rly long time for bartrand to get there without hawke and becuase after the blight deep roads were cleaner for a time.
What the heck you are talking about no one trashes hawke because flemeth helped him what you try to do with the warden i don't what insane logic that is but as i said you are streaching to trash warden because flemeth for example saved the warden when flemeth did same to hawke... And no circumstances weren't on warden side considering they were just small group of traitors and they had fix everyone problems as i said warden succeeded hawke could if he wouldn't be clueless idiot which doesn't take advantage of the situation.
Petrice and Kelder are nowhere near similar. Hawke doesn't have to be a pacifist to not decide murder is the best solution for everything.
So the Tevinter and Qunari didn't attack Hawke at all?
Then I don't get why you're brining it up? The expedition proves nothing for either argument.
I wasn't saying Hawke didn't need saving by Hawke. I'm not saying Hawke is more competent. I think both are equally awesome.
Ok, some circumstances were on The Wardens side. They were privy to the info needed to get the job done. Hawke wasn't.
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