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[dragonflight288]

It's the second time.  The Chantry existed before the first Inquisition.  They didn't flourish, and spread to most of Thedas until the two organizations joined forces, but the Chantry existed and spread the Chant before having a military arm...

 

It could be said that the Chantry has always had the Orlesian military doing it's bidding, and such a statement would be true...  And it's unclear whether or not losing the templars/seekers would also result in the Chantry losing the Orlesian military...

 

They didn't exist until the rise of Drakon and they exalted march all the neighboring city-states to form the Orlesian Empire. (History of the Chantry, chapter 4.)

 

There were plenty of believer in the Maker and followers of Andraste following her death, but the Chantry itself was not officially organized until Drakon used them and an army to spread the worship of the Maker, and declared one of many Andrastian cults to be the official church. 

 

The Chantry always had an army, but the followers of Andraste didn't because they existed for nearly a century before the Chantry had. 

 

Belief in the Maker and the Chant of Light certainly seems to have a strong foundation in its principles. The foundation of the Chantry, on the other hand, well doesn't. its policies in regards to their martial power ultimately became a self-fulfilled prophecy of magical and disastrous proportions, and its hypocrisy on various issues has made them lose credibility. 

 

Their martial strength issue is this: The templars own codex says that they prefer to recruit from the more faithful and less from the people with character as a way to keep them from questioning their orders. I'm sure many templars simply want to help protect the world, and wish to defend others. But over time, the fanatics have risen to power, and fanatics recruit and promote almost exclusively other fanatics. We see this in Kirkwall. Cullen's codex says Meredith made him her second because they had similar views. Templars who are trying to do their job like Emerick are pretty much left high and dry, unable to effectively do their actual jobs and don't get the support they need. Or templars like Thrask who try to prevent unnecessary deaths (Act 1) are kept from promotions, as we see with Evangeline in Asunder. But Cullen was promoted super fast because of his views, Kerras the blood-thirsty rapist is a lieutenant of Meredith's, or as Thask calls him in Act 1, one of her cronies. Alrik the deviant is also one of her lieutenants. Then there's that templar lieutenant who is given the task of leading a templar death squad, killing non-mages in broad daylight without making any trips to the magistrate. 

 

Then those fanatics who take such a hard line with mages feel justified for taking such a hard line when mages are driven to desperate acts of self-preservation. 

 

Add in the lyrium addiction, the sense of entitlement over so long of having powers of life, death, and all manner of abuses of body and soul templars seemed to routinely get away with depending on the Knight-Commander of that Circle and no real way to report them as the Seekers seem to be absent as of late, and you have a system that is bound to implode from its own weight. 

 

And for the Chantry's hypocrisy: They preach and believe that the Maker will return when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. Yet they also have absolutely no problem taking verses out of the Chant when those verses become politically inconvenient. The Canticle of Maferath in Awakening is shown to have never been put in by the Chantry because it was considered too heretical. The Canticle of Shartan was removed after the Dales was conquered in an Exalted March and the Chantry declared that all elves had to live among humans and be converted to the worship of the Maker. 

 

The very existence of the Dissonent Verses highlights that the Chantry is less concerned about spreading, preaching and living the Chant as it had been first set down and more concerned with their particular interpretation of it and are happy to remove verses that disagree with their beliefs, rather than alter their beliefs to follow the Maker's word. 

 

They were nearly kicked out of Ferelden in Stolen Throne because Maric and Loghain saw them as more of an Orlesian organization and less a religious one. 

 

EDIT; Edited to make part of my point more understandable. Also added a few more paragraphs. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 août 2014 - 04:21 .

[AshenEndymion]

if anything the Chantry serves at the beck and call of Orlais, Drakon used it to justify his conquests, not the other way around

 

Drakon's conquests were more as a result of the Second blight(which started 8 years after he founded Orlais, and continued 40 years after his death), than anything else... Most of the lands weren't given back after the blight, but if the Chantry were an arm of Orlais after Drakon died(rather than the other way around), then most of the Andrastian nations that freed themselves form Orlesian rule would have reverted to whatever god they worshiped before...

[Steelcan]

Drakon's conquests were more as a result of the Second blight(which started 8 years after he founded Orlais, and continued 40 years after his death), than anything else... Most of the lands weren't given back after the blight, but if the Chantry were an arm of Orlais after Drakon died(rather than the other way around), then most of the Andrastian nations that freed themselves form Orlesian rule would have reverted to whatever god they worshiped before...

there's no reason for that, the Saxons of Mainland Europe didn't covert back to paganism after Charlemagne died, the vikings of Denmark didn't revert to Odin and Thor after Harald Bluetooth died

[dragonflight288]

Drakon's conquests were more as a result of the Second blight(which started 8 years after he founded Orlais, and continued 40 years after his death), than anything else... Most of the lands weren't given back after the blight, but if the Chantry were an arm of Orlais after Drakon died(rather than the other way around), then most of the Andrastian nations that freed themselves form Orlesian rule would have reverted to whatever god they worshiped before...

 

Except that in every nation that Orlais expanded into, when they were driven out, the Chantry remained. This is true in Nevarra, Rivain and Ferelden, and even then they were nearly driven out because they were seen being closer to an Orlesian organization than a religious one. 

[Ynqve]

there's no reason for that, the Saxons of Mainland Europe didn't covert back to paganism after Charlemagne died, the vikings of Scandinavia didn't revert to Odin and Thor after Harald Bluetooth died

 

Ehm. this is completely off topic, but Sweden wasn't officially christian until about 100 years after Bluetooth's death...

[LobselVith8]

I kinda shake my head at the people expressing such militant opposition to a notion we know so little about at this point. I don't mean the opposition of the Chantry - indeed, I too would like to deconstruct the current system, even if I think its outright destruction is a shortsighted and nigh-impossible notion. I mean this whole "Herald of Andraste" business. Yeah, some just don't like the notion of a divine superior existing at all, but what if you legitimately turn out to be Andraste's herald? Is this such a vile notion to be opposed at every turn? Wouldn't this be proof that divine forces exist, thus disproving atheism? Do the perks not outweigh the downsides? What if this puts you in the position to reorganize certain systems to your choosing?

 

Bottom line: I think that simply knowing that the title exists is insufficient reason to aggravate your blood pressure.

 

Well, I don't see why my Dalish Inquisitor would embrace being 'Andraste's Herald' when the People viewed her as a secular leader, and not a religious figure. If my Dwarven Inquisitor believes in the Stone and my Vashoth Inquisitor is atheist, I don't see why either one would embrace the title with any genuine regard, given that this person isn't a divine figure in their eyes.

 

Then again, at this point, I think Laidlaw and Weekes have heavily suggested that the Inquisitor can refute any association as Andraste's Herald.

[Steelcan]

Ehm. this is completely off topic, but Sweden wasn't officially christian until about 100 years after Bluetooth's death...

I just went with that as a broad example, but I'll edit it

[Steelcan]

Well, I don't see why my Dalish Inquisitor would embrace being 'Andraste's Herald' when the People viewed her as a secular leader, and not a religious figure. If my Dwarven Inquisitor believes in the Stone and my Vashoth Inquisitor is atheist, I don't see why either one would embrace the title with any genuine regard, given that this person isn't a divine figure in their eyes.

that's ok, Andraste and the Maker believe in you regardless

[AresKeith]

Out of everything we've seen in Dragon Age would it really be that silly if something like the story of Andraste actually being somewhat true?

[AresKeith]

I would literally burn all the Dragon Age things I own. And I love Dragon Age.

 

That's a bit of overreaction to something not that big of a deal

[Daerog]

If a culture "needs to die" then it shouldn't be through persecution and genocide, but through actual unviability and self-caused disasters. No one deserves to die for being born to the "wrong parents" or for believing a certain way.

 

Unless you are darkspawn. I think genocide against the darkspawn is okay, they are an enemy to life by their very nature. They are completely blighted, they can't exist without it.

[90s Luke]

Must the title of "Herald of Andraste" only be religious? Andraste was also a war hero.

[MACharlie1]

That's a bit of overreaction to something not that big of a deal

I was about to say...

 

 

You guys do know that the entire story of Dragon Age IS fiction, right? Andraste NEVER existed. 

[AresKeith]

Well....nevermind.

 

Anyway, don't be so dismissive. We all are connected to our characters and want to play them the way we so choose; in the past BioWare was wise to leave the entire religious thing ambiguous in Dragon Age and the OP is right to be concerned.

 

Would this help?

 

User

If this has been asked I'm sorry, but will all inquisitors be called the Herald of Andraste or will title depend on the PC?

 

Patrick Weekes ‏@PatrickWeekes

That's sort of a spoiler. Rest assured, I believe we handle it in a way devout Andrastians and atheists alike can take.

[Spicen]

Some really interesting arguments by Medhia_Nox.

I want to make one point perfectly clear. I hope LobselVith will read this. After the fall of tevinter, mages came under great scrutiny, an organisation, now called the templars were sworn to kill all mages. The chantry made an accord with them which prevented all mages from being killed in the first place. So the chantry being vilified for this is wrong. More so in da2, meredith performed a coup, the templars were to blame. Never did i hear elthina calling for genocide. So i dont really get it. Again, i supported the mages in da2 bcoz the templars and their b1tch were getting out if hand(lets also not forget another woman called grace whose lunacy was just...meh). However, despite their goodwill i have a feeling that the chantry may advocate majing mages tranquil for financial purpose. It wud make sense.

The information about the elves is sketchy, i cud be wrong but didnt the elves attack montsimmard first?

And destroying the chantry wud mean there wud be no uniting voice. Lets remember its this voice that kept out the extremist oxmen. It was their exalted march. I think thus they are not all that bad.

@lobselvith- the chantry are a 'grey' org. theres two sides of the same coin. for ex: the ones in fereldan were probably less corrupt and more lenient. im almost sure that the one in orlais will be most corrupt. it has to do with the power that it enjoys from the orlesian crown. that has nothing to do with the chant and religion.

And for those who are afraid of the maker existing, well, he probably does. He probably is not the all powerful entity the chantry makes out, but he does exist. The dragon bothered to deny his existence for a reason. i think the maker imprisoned him.i know its said for u guys. you really hate religion and want to destroy every trace of it but since u cant do it, you are looking at the games. but it seems even the game wont fulfill ur wish. i want to pass my condolences to those who will buy the game to try and destroy its religion and those who will burn everything related to game just bcoz it wont let u to.

[Spicen]

I would literally burn all the Dragon Age things I own. And I love Dragon Age.

the wonders of BSN never ceases to amaze me

[Spicen]

Andraste NEVER existed.

Your two cents.
When did you take Gaider's position?

[Spicen]

Unless you are darkspawn. I think genocide against the darkspawn is okay, they are an enemy to life by their very nature. They are completely blighted, they can't exist without it.

First day they come and catch everyone
Second day....

...Broodmother....

The worst abomination in da world, and they said uldred was bad.

[Spicen]

I kinda shake my head at the people expressing such militant opposition to a notion we know so little about at this point. I don't mean the opposition of the Chantry - indeed, I too would like to deconstruct the current system, even if I think its outright destruction is a shortsighted and nigh-impossible notion. I mean this whole "Herald of Andraste" business. Yeah, some just don't like the notion of a divine superior existing at all, but what if you legitimately turn out to be Andraste's herald? Is this such a vile notion to be opposed at every turn? Wouldn't this be proof that divine forces exist, thus disproving atheism? Do the perks not outweigh the downsides? What if this puts you in the position to reorganize certain systems to your choosing?

Bottom line: I think that simply knowing that the title exists is insufficient reason to aggravate your blood pressure.

a voice of reason.....in the bsn? you sure you're in the right place?

[Little Princess Peach]

Being associated with Andraste does not neccesarily mean you support the Chantry. Actually you could become the greatest enemy of the Chantry with a title such as "Herald of Andraste".

the chantry claims to follow her belifes but they take things out of context and they sort of manipulate the belifes of Andraste to benifite them in some manner

[The Green Blade]

I've no doubt that Andraste as a historical figure existed at some point, now whether she was really connected to the Maker is another matter entirely. One of my theories is that Andraste was actually a mage and the "Maker" that spoke to her was a powerful spirit/demon.