the chantry claims to follow her belifes but they take things out of context and they sort of manipulate the belifes of Andraste to benifite them in some manner
I've no doubt that Andraste as a historical figure existed at some point, now whether she was really connected to the Maker is another matter entirely. One of my theories is that Andraste was actually a mage and the "Maker" that spoke to her was a powerful spirit/demon.
I've no doubt that Andraste as a historical figure existed at some point, now whether she was really connected to the Maker is another matter entirely. One of my theories is that Andraste was actually a mage and the "Maker" that spoke to her was a powerful spirit/demon.
It's not so much about the existence of beings revered as gods by some people, which is of course possible, but about the question "No matter if they do or don't exist, do I want to be associated with an ideology that reveres them as gods?". There may be an Inquisitor or two I'll play who don't mind, or are willing to use the association to their advantage, but those I'll identify with most with will believe as I do that there is nothing and no one that deserves unreserved reverence. Any beings may be my far superior in knowledge and power, but that doesn't give them any moral authority.Yeah, some just don't like the notion of a divine superior existing at all, but what if you legitimately turn out to be Andraste's herald? Is this such a vile notion to be opposed at every turn? Wouldn't this be proof that divine forces exist, thus disproving atheism? Do the perks not outweigh the downsides? What if this puts you in the position to reorganize certain systems to your choosing?
This actually makes more sense than the creator god option.
Still the question remains: in a world where there is another plane of existence inhabited by some extremely powerful beings what is the difference between them and a minor god?
Many minor gods in polytheistic mythologies didn't create the world, aren't all- powerful and can be outsmarted/beaten by mortals.
Just as many of those religions also have major gods that did create the world and can only be defeated by other gods. If the Maker or Creators aren't real, I'd be curious to find out exactly what created the Fade and spirits. Unlike Earth, there is no scientific explanation for where spirits come from or why anyone has supernatural powers, so atheism is a lot less plausible. I'd be interested in learning the truth, whatever it may be.
Assuming that the Maker is not real without scientific evidence to explain the nature of the world makes little sense to me. Either possibility could be true with what little we know about magic and the Fade.
Just as many of those religions also have major gods that did create the world and can only be defeated by other gods. If the Maker or Creators aren't real, I'd be curious to find out exactly what created the Fade and spirits. Unlike Earth, there is no scientific explanation for where spirits come from or why anyone has supernatural powers, so atheism is a lot less plausible. I'd be interested in learning the truth, whatever it may be.
Assuming that the Maker is not real without scientific evidence to explain the nature of the world makes little sense to me. Either possibility could be true with what little we know about magic and the Fade.
Just as many of those religions also have major gods that did create the world and can only be defeated by other gods. If the Maker or Creators aren't real, I'd be curious to find out exactly what created the Fade and spirits. Unlike Earth, there is no scientific explanation for where spirits come from or why anyone has supernatural powers, so atheism is a lot less plausible. I'd be interested in learning the truth, whatever it may be.
Assuming that the Maker is not real without scientific evidence to explain the nature of the world makes little sense to me. Either possibility could be true with what little we know about magic and the Fade.
You are right, still I fear you missed the point I was trying to make.
The point is that in a similar context, where even some humans are able to perform supernatural feats and demons and spirits are very much real and the most powerful amongst them are what we would call a minor divinity: does it make sense the concept of a god?
You can imagine something more powerful than the spirits you know of, still the Fade is far from "explored" and if your only criteria to differentiate a god from a spirit is power you must first know what is the most power a spirit can have.
Thus, yes, real world atheism is not applicable to Thedas, but so is real world religion too.
Both cease to make sense for Thedas is a fantasy setting.
@ vaire - I see what you're saying. Any fade creature could potentially be considered a god if they had enough power and ability to influence the mortal realm... such as contacting or interacting with Andraste. Yeah, that does make sense.
I suppose my issue was more with the overall sentiment behind this thread, which is that a creator god is illogical in Thedas because it's easy to come to that conclusion when considering Earth. I agree that these worlds are only superficially related, and so I am not willing to jump to the conclusion that there is no creator god behind Thedas.
well science dont count in a game based on middle age.
btw, scientists say one thing one day, then anothe thing on another. they are more unreliable than magic lol
Science counts when outside observers are attempting to explain Thedas based on the real world. Until I know exactly what a "spirit" is, I am not going to assume that an intelligent being didn't design it. Many scenarios are possible until the facts prove otherwise.
edit: Also, atheism only exists because of the collective scientific knowledge that humans have put together over the centuries. Without that as a basis, applying the philosophy to a fictional world seems reckless. I am not saying the Maker or anything else is real. I am saying that I don't see any justification for dismissing the idea without evidence, especially since supernatural occurrences are normal on the planet in question.
btw, scientists say one thing one day, then anothe thing on another. they are more unreliable than magic lol
Indeed....
What have the scientists ever done for us?
You are right, still I fear you missed the point I was trying to make.
The point is that in a similar context, where even some humans are able to perform supernatural feats and demons and spirits are very much real and the most powerful amongst them are what we would call a minor divinity: does it make sense the concept of a god?
You can imagine something more powerful than the spirits you know of, still the Fade is far from "explored" and if your only criteria to differentiate a god from a spirit is power you must first know what is the most power a spirit can have.
Thus, yes, real world atheism is not applicable to Thedas, but so is real world religion too.
Both cease to make sense for Thedas is a fantasy setting.
Eee you know what atheism is?Simple it is lack of faith in god spirits/demons can be saw as gods (as everything) but they aren't saw as those even in thedas.So hell in what way the fade or magic prevents someone from not beliving in gods?Even morrigan explained that...
Eee you know what atheism is?Simple it is lack of faith in god spirits/demons can be saw as gods (as everything) but they aren't saw as those even in thedas.So hell in what way the fade or magic prevents someone from not beliving in gods?Even morrigan explained that...
I know, in fact I happen to be an atheist.
Still you seem to have missed my point entirely.
Read the post you quoted again XD
I know, in fact I happen to be an atheist.
Still you seem to have missed my point entirely.
Read the post you quoted again XD
I read it still you said that real world atheism don't work in thedas is that right?
I read it still you said that real world atheism don't work in thedas is that right?
Yes, I explained why, it's my opinion that neither real world atheism nor real world religion make sense in Thedas.
You should redefine both concepts, to a degree, in order to fit a fantasy world.
Atheism is not as simple as you made it to be and to define it you must have a definition of what the heck a god is. Even the very denizens of Thedas have a problem in defining that (see various dragon cults, spirit cults etc..)
@ Spicen
Pot, kettle and their relative blackness.
Yes, I explained why, it's my opinion that neither real world atheism nor real world religion make sense in Thedas.
You should redefine both concepts, to a degree, in order to fit a fantasy world.
Atheism is not as simple as you made it to be and to define it you must have a definition of what the heck a god is. Even the very denizens of Thedas have a problem in defining that (see various dragon cults, spirit cults etc..)
@ Spicen
Pot, kettle and their relative blackness.
Yes, I explained why, it's my opinion that neither real world atheism nor real world religion make sense in Thedas.
You should redefine both concepts, to a degree, in order to fit a fantasy world.
Atheism is not as simple as you made it to be and to define it you must have a definition of what the heck a god is. Even the very denizens of Thedas have a problem in defining that (see various dragon cults, spirit cults etc..)
@ Spicen
Pot, kettle and their relative blackness.
So what in real life there is a lot definitions of god as well varietes ask few peoples what god is and you will hear few answers if half of the world worship cats as gods doesn't mean you have to as well... if you refuse belive in gods (even if other claim that that or that is a god) you are an atheist it is simple... It is ther faith not yours...
So what in real life there is a lot definitions of god as well varietes ask few peoples what god is and you will hear few answers if half of the world worship cats as gods doesn't mean you have to as well... if you refuse belive in gods (even if other claim that that or that is a god) you are an atheist it is simple... It is ther faith not yours...
So what in real life there is a lot definitions of god as well varietes ask few peoples what god is and you will hear few answers if half of the world worship cats as gods doesn't mean you have to as well... if you refuse belive in gods (even if other claim that that or that is a god) you are an atheist it is simple... It is ther faith not yours...
You seem to ignore a fundamental point of religion (and I'm not sure I correctly understood what you meant in this post, so I apologize in advance for any misinterpretation of your words).
Each and every real world religion needs at its core a belief that prescinds from the giving of solid unshakable proof and most of the dogma is founded on the fact that in this world the every day experience is distinctively lacking in people able to throw fireballs around or make you see an old horrible crone as attractive.
Besides: no, atheism is not refusing to believe in cats or baobabs if someone calls them gods, is the act of refusing to believe in the existence of deities, thus you must first have at least an idea of what you mean by deity.
You seem to ignore a fundamental point of religion (and I'm not sure I correctly understood what you meant in this post, so I apologize in advance for any misinterpretation of your words).
Each and every real world religion needs at its core a belief that prescinds from the giving of solid unshakable proof and most of the dogma is founded on the fact that in this world the every day experience is distinctively lacking in people able to throw fireballs around or make you see an old horrible crone as attractive.
Besides: no, atheism is not refusing to believe in cats or baobabs if someone calls them gods, is the act of refusing to believe in the existence of deities, thus you must first have at least an idea of what you mean by deity.
You seem to ignore a fundamental point of religion (and I'm not sure I correctly understood what you meant in this post, so I apologize in advance for any misinterpretation of your words).
Each and every real world religion needs at its core a belief that prescinds from the giving of solid unshakable proof and most of the dogma is founded on the fact that in this world the every day experience is distinctively lacking in people able to throw fireballs around or make you see an old horrible crone as attractive.
Besides: no, atheism is not refusing to believe in cats or baobabs if someone calls them gods, is the act of refusing to believe in the existence of deities, thus you must first have a clear concept of what you mean by deity.
What peoples that throw fireballs have to religion? What do you mean by that?They suppose to be prove that there is god or that there isn't? Im confused there im not sure i understand.
There is no clear concept of god in real world as well you said that because someone see dragon as god you can't be atheist but i don't have see dragon as god or spirits/demons.
I agree, but I haven't really seen anyone argue against this, or at least not in this discussion. The only people that I would consider killing when it comes to the Chantry, are those who attack me first. And they wouldn't really die because of their beliefs, they would die because they tried to kill me. It's self defense. I will gladly spare anyone who lay down their weapon and I would accept their surrender.
Except that it is YOU who are the aggressor. YOU are the one attacking their faith, and you expect them to lay down and take it? They are the ones defending themselves in this scenario, not you.
Unless you are darkspawn. I think genocide against the darkspawn is okay, they are an enemy to life by their very nature. They are completely blighted, they can't exist without it.
The killing of Darkspawn isn't genocide anymore than the killing of cattle is. There is no cuture which is getting destroyed.
What peoples that throw fireballs have to religion? What do you mean by that?They suppose to be prove that there is god or that there isn't? Im confused there im not sure i understand.
There is no clear concept of god in real world as well you said that because someone see dragon as god you can't be atheist but i don't have see dragon as god or spirits/demons.
Except that it is YOU who are the aggressor. YOU are the one attacking their faith, and you expect them to lay down and take it? They are the ones defending themselves in this scenario, not you.
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