what he is trying to say is that things exist in DA world which dont in real world.
About God's existence in real world, dont go there, for the last time. It doesnt take much to start sth. Do you want this thread locked?
Yeah so what in half life 2 as well.
Eee i didn't went there?I was saying that everything can be seen as god...
I question that "Someone must've created it" is the default assumption in absence of any real knowledge. Creator gods always run into the question of who has created them, and if nothing has, then given the absence of evidence, the same assumption is more plausibly made about the world in the first place. So while not exactly illogical, a creator god is certainly a very odd claim to make. Other gods don't run into the same kind of problem, though in both cases the main question is "are they deserving of worship?" - which is what this topic is ultimately about.@ vaire - I see what you're saying. Any fade creature could potentially be considered a god if they had enough power and ability to influence the mortal realm... such as contacting or interacting with Andraste. Yeah, that does make sense.
I suppose my issue was more with the overall sentiment behind this thread, which is that a creator god is illogical in Thedas because it's easy to come to that conclusion when considering Earth. I agree that these worlds are only superficially related, and so I am not willing to jump to the conclusion that there is no creator god behind Thedas.
What peoples that throw fireballs have to religion? What do you mean by that?They suppose to be prove that there is god or that there isn't? Im confused there im not sure i understand.
There is no clear concept of god in real world as well you said that because someone see dragon as god you can't be atheist but i don't have see dragon as god or spirits/demons.
I'll try to be as clear as possible: real world religions are grounded in a distinction between natural and supernatural that gives rise to the concept of a god capable of influencing/bending to his will both; such a distinction in Thedas isn't clear at all since spirits/demons can do exactly that. Heck, even mages, to a lesser extent can. Thus the concept behind a real world religion can't be applied to Thedas and that is also true for real world atheism.
In Thedas you must redefine them both.
Yeah so what in half life 2 as well.
Eee i didn't went there?I was saying that everything can be seen as god...
I'll try to be as clear as possible: real world religions are grounded in a distinction between natural and supernatural that gives rise to the concept of a god capable of influencing/bending to his will both
Even atheism can mean different things to different people. In the Ancient Roman world of numerous deities the first Christians were considered atheists because they refused to acknowledge any god but their own. So if you apply their thinking to Thedas then Andraste was an atheist because she refused to acknowledge any god but the Maker.
In Ancient Greece there were those who refused to acknowledge the gods and I seem to recall wound up dead because they were seen as a threat either because they might offend the gods or because they might provoke civil unrest.
Among the Ancient Celts there were numerous tribes and feuds. However, a druid holy man could walk between two opposing armies and stop the fighting.
Religion can be a unifying thing. What enabled Maferath and Andraste to unite the numerous barbarian tribes into one cohesive whole was partly their common enemy but what kept it together was their belief in her relationship to a god. It is noticeable that after her death, the tribes would appear to have gone their own way even though many retained a belief in the Maker. No doubt this is what Drakon saw and exploited by tying his religion to his empire. Even when Orlais no longer ruled over them, the people retained their beliefs, except where superseded by another faith, the Qun.
Like it or not the majority of people in Thedas believe in the Maker. They may only pay lip service to the teachings of the Chant of Light but nevertheless it is something that unifies them. You may not like being linked to that religion but it will make your task much easier than if you try and tear it down for everyone. If you keep saying there is no Maker, people are likely to think you are working for the Elder One. That said, you don't have to accept the title they give you but without insulting the majority belief. The Creators, the Ancestors and whatever the Vashoth believe in, had to be created by something, so acknowledging the Maker as responsible for creation does not necessarily negate these religions. So personally I'll just go with Sebastian and say that until proven otherwise, when I talk about the Maker and the Creators I am referring to the same divine force or aspects of it.
I'll try to be as clear as possible: real world religions are grounded in a distinction between natural and supernatural that gives rise to the concept of a god capable of influencing/bending to his will both; such a distinction in Thedas isn't clear at all since spirits/demons can do exactly that. Heck, even mages, to a lesser extent can. Thus the concept behind a real world religion can't be applied to Thedas and that is also true for real world atheism.
In Thedas you must redefine them both.
Hm but such things like dragons are part of the nature in thedas (as they would be in our world)... yet they are worshiped as gods by some.X-men had mutants they are supernatural so that mean i can't be an atheist?Heck you can belive in ghost how that would stop you from not beliving in god in fact that there are religion that are atheistic and still involve things that are "supernatural".
Not.
In all (true) monotheistic religions one thing is clear, God gave man free will to answer one question: to believe or not to believe?
i wud say more but not on topic, so back to the topic....
demons cant really bend everything to their will, neither mages, maybe blood mages. there also seems to be a connection with the elven lore and the chant.
Look, I'm not interested in your personal religious wiews, so stop trying to start a discussion, ok? You'll be ignored XD
As for the rest of your post Spirits/demons can manipulate the fade and can manipulate people, to the point of turning them in abominations thus can manipulate both "worlds", mages draw from the fade and manipulate reality, so they can too and a god in real life religions is a being able to perform supernatural feats, thus able to manipulate both the natural and the supernatural at will.
So, yes, in Thedas you would need a new definition of the divine.
Look, I'm not interested in your personal religious wiews, You'll be ignored XD
.
I wouldn't want to be co-opted by an ideology that counts someone as worthy of worship if I don't. I can't have complete control over how I am perceived by the world, but I want a say in it.
Getting more into the matters of DAI's story, another question is "are we supposed to associate 'Andraste' with that Fade spirit in the trailer?" I say the story is highly suggestive in that regard and as such appears to support a religious angle much more than a non-religious one which would regard the Fade as a dimension in which what people believe can become manifest, and the spirit owing its appearance to that fact.
Well look, I get that you may be uncomfortable with the idea, but Laidlaw said that they presented it in a way that should be acceptable both to Andrastians and atheists... they aren't going to force you to worship anybody and I am almost positive that you can express concerns or maybe even outrage. "Religious figurehead" is part of the role you will be playing this game, like it or not. It's part of public perception, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving players the option to loudly proclaim their refusal to be labeled as "Herald." So long as it came with an appropriately severe reputation penalty and made people less accepting of the Inquisition, of course... 
After all, the inhabitants of Thedas are some of the most stubborn in all of fiction. I can't imagine waves of human soldiers and their governments lining up to support a known heretic.
Whether Andraste was in the trailer or not, you're going to have to accept the lore as it's been written. It's the same as if that was a demon in disguise for the people who prefer the idea of the Maker being real. It's nothing to worry about because that part of the story is totally out of our hands and could go either way.
(edit: My mistake, that quote was from Patrick Weekes, not Laidlaw.)
Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 août 2014 - 10:37 .
Who or what is that supposed to be?
you already have this answer since DAO in Dalish origin 
this is who we see in trailer
Calling it now, that's the 'Spirit of Hope'
Hm but such things like dragons are part of the nature in thedas (as they would be in our world)... yet they are worshiped as gods by some.X-men had mutants they are supernatural so that mean i can't be an atheist?Heck you can belive in ghost how that would stop you from not beliving in god in fact that there are religion that are atheistic and still involve things that are "supernatural".
Yes, you are right: dragons were a bad example, even though the whole Archdemon/Old gods story hints at the existence of different dragons. Still there are in Thedas religions which worship spirits/demons, thus the example still stands.
as for the rest of your post I fear I don't understand what you mean.
An atheistic religion is an oxymoron: maybe you mean a religion that doesn't involve the worshiping of a god? In that case many would argue for it to be a philosophy rather than a religion and, indeed, there are philosophies which include supernatural beings/phenomena, still, I fail to see the connection to what I told in the post you quoted.
In that case, the story would appear to take a stance, as opposed to just people in-world, and that I would dislike quite a bit. If it's more a case of "lose one, gain the other" it's more balanced. After all, I'm supposed to defeat a threat that crosses culture boundaries, and a Dalish, a dwarf or a qunari can't be assumed to subscribe to Andrasteanism by default. And as others have pointed out, accepting the title may already brand you a heretic in some people's eyes."Religious figurehead" is part of the role you will be playing this game, like it or not. It's part of public perception, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving players the option to loudly proclaim their refusal to be labeled as "Herald." So long as it came with an appropriately severe reputation penalty and made people less accepting of the Inquisition, of course...
Yes, you are right: dragons were a bad example, even though the whole Archdemon/Old gods story hints at the existence of different dragons. Still there are in Thedas religions which worship spirits/demons, thus the example still stands.
as for the rest of your post I fear I don't understand what you mean.
An atheistic religion is an oxymoron: maybe you mean a religion that doesn't involve the worshiping of a god? In that case many would argue for it to be a philosophy rather than a religion and, indeed, there are philosophies which include supernatural beings/phenomena, still, I fail to see the connection to what I told in the post you quoted.
But it still stands supernatural beings/things for example mutants in x-men don't exclude atheism same for spirits and demons it is completely up to you to consider them gods same for dragons hell as i said being atheist doesn't mean you can't belive in ghosts despite they are seen as supernatural beings.In fact many things were saw as supernatural because peoples didn't have explanation for that hell if you gave person from middle ages modern technology such person would see it as magic (supernatural).
Yes. They said "You can roleplay against the Alliance" before ME3 came out. The DA team *appears* to have a different philosophy, but yes, I do have reason to be skeptical.
Yeah not a fan of seeing protagonist being called 'herald Andraste' and the heavy chantry/andraste inquisition association. I should be able to cope as long as there are plenty of roleplaying opportunites to effectively chafe against that interpretation.
Yeah not a fan of seeing protagonist being called 'herald Andraste' and the heavy chantry/andraste inquisition association. I should be able to cope as long as there are plenty of roleplaying opportunites to effectively chafe against that interpretation.
What if it literally is a manifestation of Andraste?
What if it literally is a manifestation of Andraste?
It can claim to be that(though i'd prefer ambiguity rather than that), doesn't mean i should have to believe/accept it to be that.
Doesn't mean anything. The Fade is a realm where what people believe might manifest, so all that tells me is that - surprise - many people believe Andraste to be significant. My warrior Inquisitors might be fooled by the appearance, but my mages certainly won't. They'd rather discuss the metaphysics of their acquisition of the power to influence and close rifts.What if it literally is a manifestation of Andraste?
Doesn't mean anything. The Fade is a realm where what people believe might manifest, so all that tells me is that - surprise - many people believe Andraste to be significant. My warrior Inquisitors might be fooled by the appearance, but my mages certainly won't. They'd rather discuss the metaphysics of their acquisition of the power to influence and close rifts.
Having said that, I would prefer a setup with less cultural bias.
I don't like the idea od mages have "smarter" conversation options than any other class, besides I imagine that will be handled with all the grace of a hippo in a tutu. I sense a "you are the inquisitor its what you do and thats the end of that"
There isn't really any inherent cultural bias with Andraste herself. The elves recognized her as a great leader and joined her rebellion, and surfacer dwarves are certainly going to be at least familiar with her.
It can claim to be that(though i'd prefer ambiguity rather than that), doesn't mean i should have to believe/accept it to be that.
Doesn't mean anything. The Fade is a realm where what people believe might manifest, so all that tells me is that - surprise - many people believe Andraste to be significant. My warrior Inquisitors might be fooled by the appearance, but my mages certainly won't. They'd rather discuss the metaphysics of their acquisition of the power to influence and close rifts.
Having said that, I would prefer a setup with less cultural bias.
Evidently the two of you don't quite understand what "literally" means. it emans what if it was ACTUALLY Andraste. Not a Spirit, not a figment of imagination, but ACTUALLY Andraste.
There is no cultural bias with Andraste. She is historical fact. Wetehr or not she actually spoke with the Maker is up for debate.
You know, if you were the herald for King Richard the Lionheart... you could be called "The Herald of The Lionheart" if there were a reason to respect someone so provincial as a herald.
"Herald" is not a religious term... and I think some people who claim to base their beliefs and arguments on reason should consider how much they overreact to anything "potentially" not being catered to them.
Perhaps that speech is never given if you refute the claims of being "The Herald of Andraste".
Personally - I think it should be very difficult for anyone who opposes Andrastianism to rally the human populace to the Inquistion (while perhaps making it easier for another group). People don't side with someone they feel doesn't have their best interests in mind.
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