764 réponses à ce sujet

[Spicen]

well i think the people have to relax and remenber that this is a game. shud we really fight for pixels? Should be cancel purchase bcoz it doesnt give the specific pixels showing how gloriously aetheistic u r. chill out men, the world aint gonna end bcoz of an in game title

[Iakus]

Doesn't mean anything. The Fade is a realm where what people believe might manifest, so all that tells me is that - surprise - many people believe Andraste to be significant. My warrior Inquisitors might be fooled by the appearance, but my mages certainly won't. They'd rather discuss the metaphysics of their acquisition of the power to influence and close rifts.

Having said that, I would prefer a setup with less cultural bias.

I don't know about "cultural bias"  The Breach opened in an area containing thousands of Andrastreans (not to mention the location where Andraste's ashes were said to have been located for close to a thousand years)

 

To me it woul dmake sense for a creature of the Fade to take on, or perhaps even claim to be an agent of the Maker.  Even Andraste herself.  Whether the Inquisitor believes something like that is another thing entirely.

 

Edit:  heh, wouldn't it be funny if "Andraste" turned out to be the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes, or one of teh other spirits?"

[TheDragonOfWhy]

the world aint gonna end bcoz of an in game title

 

no, world is going to end by Ebola. And hopefully not before November. But that said:

The idea of an optional ingame title is grand, 
The idea of a forced upon us title that dramatically alters the narrative of how our player character is preserved, is not so good at all.

[vaire]

Personally - I think it should be very difficult for anyone who opposes Andrastianism to rally the human populace to the Inquistion (while perhaps making it easier for another group).  People don't side with someone they feel doesn't have their best interests in mind.  

 

This last part is debatable in my opinion because: while it's true that someone actively opposing the cult of Adraste and the Maker (it's different from expessing disbelief) could have a hard time rallying the humans under his banner, let's not forget that there are giant "tears" through which the Fade is invading Thedas and, apparently, the Inquisitor is the only one capable of closing them for good.

Thus I suspect that even an Inquisitor that actively opposes the Chantry would end up having human allies. Likely not as many or as enthusiast as one who has the Chantry's approval, still he/she would since he /she has a power all need and many people, when faced with a load of demons/abominations would rather help a "heaten" than be eaten. 

So maybe rallying the humans would be more difficult for someone that actively opposes the Chantry, yes, but not incredibly difficult, unless the majority of Thedas is distinctively lacking in the self preservation instinct department.

After all against the Qunari even the two Divines made an alliance...

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheDragonofWhy: Being called a messenger dramatically alters your player character?  

 

If you were saved by "a thing" - and given the quest to save Thedas by "a thing" - is it really SO offensive to considered a Herald of "that thing"? Especially when you get to refute your title of 'Messenger' and reassure everyone you're just a 'messenger'.  

 

Would you really say:  "By Galileo's Spyglass!  My totally righteous secular viewpoint is not preserved because NPCs in a video game consider me a messenger of their beloved Andraste." 

 

@vaire: Did you attend the last Blight?  

[TheDragonOfWhy]

@TheDragonofWhy: Being called a messenger dramatically alters your player character?  

 

 

For me personally: Yes, actually it does. 

[vaire]

 

@vaire: Did you attend the last Blight?  

 

Yes, with my mage in charge of other people, unbothered by Templars and side by side with with a Qunari follower... 

Had the Blight progressed more, and the Tears seem to pose much a bigger danger than a Blight, Orlais would have been the least of Ferelden's problems. 

[Ieldra]

Evidently the two of you don't quite understand what "literally" means. it emans what if it was ACTUALLY Andraste. Not a Spirit, not a figment of imagination, but ACTUALLY Andraste.
 
There is no cultural bias with Andraste. She is historical fact. Wetehr or not she actually spoke with the Maker is up for debate.

In the Fade, how would you ever know the difference? If someone appeared before me and claimed to be Andraste, I would be very slow in believing it, and there isn't anything I know about her that isn't widely known, so it couldn't be used to prove the claim.

And anyway, as I said I'm not going to grant anyone special consideration because of their status as a religious or historical figure, except in areas of known competence. I'd be rather more curious about how such a thing as this figure appearing might come to be, should I, for some reason, be convinced it's real.

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheDragonofWhy:  Did being a Grey Warden bother you too?  How about a refugee?  

Every CRPG starts off with a premise.  

 

Not to mention every fetch side quest where you're essentially a messenger.

 

What is so vastly conflicting about your character that he can't be, or be mistaken for, a messenger?  

 

Is it because you don't want the NPCs to form thoughts outside of your mouse click/controller buttons?

[EmperorSahlertz]

In the Fade, how would you ever know the difference? If someone appeared before me and claimed to be Andraste, I would be very slow in believing it, and there isn't anything I know about her that isn't widely known, so it couldn't be used to prove the claim.

And anyway, as I said I'm not going to grant anyone special consideration because of their status as a religious or historical figure, except in areas of known competence. I'd be rather more curious about how such a thing as this figure appearing might come to be, should I, for some reason, be convinced it's real.

Why and how is irrelevant to the question I am asking. I asked what if Andraste LITERALLY appeared before you (as in no question about it), and gave you the power you need to succeed as the Inquisitor? Why in this case would you be averse to the title of "Herald of Andraste"?

[Sylentmana]

I'm hoping it goes down somewhat like this:

 

Person asking: "Are you really the Herald of Andraste?"

 

Inquisitor: "If I am she certainly hasn't told me about it."

[Spicen]

@TheDragonofWhy: Did being a Grey Warden bother you too? How about a refugee?

it bothered the pro-loghain supporters coz tge warden was ruining loghain's perfect plan. stupid warden, shud have left loghain to give fereldan to the blight

[Char]

@TheDragonofWhy: Did being a Grey Warden bother you too? How about a refugee?
Every CRPG starts off with a premise.

Not to mention every fetch side quest where you're essentially a messenger.

What is so vastly conflicting about your character that he can't be, or be mistaken for, a messenger?

Is it because you don't want the NPCs to form thoughts outside of your mouse click/controller buttons?

I can't speak for TheDragonofWhy, but I would be uncomfortable having to play as the messenger of a religious icon, because my beliefs do not align with religion. Its not something you can compare to being a warden or a refugee- one is a job, the other is a state of being to be empathised with, and neither have ever told me I was unworthy or going to hell.

I don't associate religion positively, though I respect the many people who choose to believe. It's my personal choice to be a secular humanist and work for the betterment of mankind through fairness and through science. Whilst I will still play if no other option is available, I would be happiest with an option that allows my Inquisitor to reflect my personal ethics and allow the people of Thedas to make their own decisions, rather than advertising as a religious figure.

[Char]

Why and how is irrelevant to the question I am asking. I asked what if Andraste LITERALLY appeared before you (as in no question about it), and gave you the power you need to succeed as the Inquisitor? Why in this case would you be averse to the title of "Herald of Andraste"?

I suppose it has more of a ring to it than Inquisitorial Paperboy.

In this case I'd have to go with the evidence and admit that something claiming to be Andraste had given me power. And I'd probably accept the title of Herald until proven otherwise, but I'd still like the option to be sceptical and questioning. Blind obedience isn't pretty

[Medhia_Nox]

@Char:  I'm sorry that you've never had a positive experience with religion.  I must say that you seem like the most rational secular voice I've heard on the topic so far. I am also confident that you will not be disappointed in not having to embrace religiosity in your playthru.

 

My entire point however was that the term "herald" is secular.  It is no different than "refugee" or "warden (or "hero of").  

 

Yes, Andraste has become a religious icon - but we still have zero knowledge of how the speech that uses that term plays into the game, or if it is even avoidable altogether by those who would rather not wish to be associated with topics they feel uncomfortable with.

 

Though - that would beg the question - does that not open up a can of worms about a LOT of things people are uncomfortable with?  Should all things that could make people uncomfortable be excised from games?  And if the alternative is inclusion of all things - how can a truly cohesive story ever explore ANY topic?

[LobselVith8]

 

this is who we see in trailer

 

 

So perhaps the elven protagonist could see the figure as one of the Creators - Falon'Din, Friend of the Dead?

[Jazzpha]

I'd much rather be the Herald of Galactus.

 

Unfortunately, someone much radder than me already has that job on lockdown.

[Spicen]

@Char: I'm sorry that you've never had a positive experience with religion. I must say that you seem like the most rational secular voice I've heard on the topic so far. I am also confident that you will not be disappointed in not having to embrace religiosity in your playthru.

My entire point however was that the term "herald" is secular. It is no different than "refugee" or "warden (or "hero of").

Yes, Andraste has become a religious icon - but we still have zero knowledge of how the speech that uses that term plays into the game, or if it is even avoidable altogether by those who would rather not wish to be associated with topics they feel uncomfortable with.

Though - that would beg the question - does that not open up a can of worms about a LOT of things people are uncomfortable with? Should all things that could make people uncomfortable be excised from games? And if the alternative is inclusion of all things - how can a truly cohesive story ever explore ANY topic?

well lobselvith tried to be reasonable. but i still dont get why atheists hav a problem with a damned in game title. they take things way too seriously. okay, since they cant destroy religion in the real world, they want to destroy it in the game world but now that it appears they cant do so, they are anxious. We get that part, the part i dont get is why ppl are sweating over a game

[Spicen]

Some really interesting arguments by Medhia_Nox.

I want to make one point perfectly clear. I hope LobselVith will read this. After the fall of tevinter, mages came under great scrutiny, an organisation, now called the templars were sworn to kill all mages. The chantry made an accord with them which prevented all mages from being killed in the first place. So the chantry being vilified for this is wrong. More so in da2, meredith performed a coup, the templars were to blame. Never did i hear elthina calling for genocide. So i dont really get it. Again, i supported the mages in da2 bcoz the templars and their b1tch were getting out if hand(lets also not forget another woman called grace whose lunacy was just...meh). However, despite their goodwill i have a feeling that the chantry may advocate majing mages tranquil for financial purpose. It wud make sense.

The information about the elves is sketchy, i cud be wrong but didnt the elves attack montsimmard first?

And destroying the chantry wud mean there wud be no uniting voice. Lets remember its this voice that kept out the extremist oxmen. It was their exalted march. I think thus they are not all that bad.

@lobselvith- the chantry are a 'grey' org. theres two sides of the same coin. for ex: the ones in fereldan were probably less corrupt and more lenient. im almost sure that the one in orlais will be most corrupt. it has to do with the power that it enjoys from the orlesian crown. that has nothing to do with the chant and religion.

And for those who are afraid of the maker existing, well, he probably does. He probably is not the all powerful entity the chantry makes out, but he does exist. The dragon bothered to deny his existence for a reason. i think the maker imprisoned him.i know its said for u guys. you really hate religion and want to destroy every trace of it but since u cant do it, you are looking at the games. but it seems even the game wont fulfill ur wish. i want to pass my condolences to those who will buy the game to try and destroy its religion and those who will burn everything related to game just bcoz it wont let u to.

@lobselvith- wanted you to read this, to clear up a few things

[Spicen]

I don't associate religion positively, though I respect the many people who choose to believe. It's my personal choice to be a secular humanist and work for the betterment of mankind through fairness and through science. Whilst I will still play if no other option is available, I would be happiest with an option that allows my Inquisitor to reflect my personal ethics and allow the people of Thedas to make their own decisions, rather than advertising as a religious figure.

Well i dont associate with secularism positively. I want to help humanity through religious teaching and charity. But i digress, the game painted the chantry and templars in da2 as evil as they cud. it went against what i wanted. i didnt make any posts anywhere saying that i wud burn down everything related to da coz it didnt go as i wanted. It is just a game, take it easy. If the game makes u a symbol of religious glory think of all the good youll be doing. anyway remember its just a game.

[Sylentmana]

So perhaps the elven protagonist could see the figure as one of the Creators - Falon'Din, Friend of the Dead?

I see a definate resemblance.

[AresKeith]

well lobselvith tried to be reasonable. but i still dont get why atheists hav a problem with a damned in game title. they take things way too seriously. okay, since they cant destroy religion in the real world, they want to destroy it in the game world but now that it appears they cant do so, they are anxious. We get that part, the part i dont get is why ppl are sweating over a game

 

It's like what Flemeth said, Names are meaningless 

[Steelcan]

If the Maker didn't imprison the Old Gods of Tevinter, who did?

 

The Dalish creators make no mention of them or the origin of the darkspawn beyond "its another thing the humans did", the Stone is not a sentient being

[LobselVith8]

@lobselvith- wanted you to read this, to clear up a few things

 

I read it earlier, but I didn't have anything to add. I'm aware of the history with Drakon, Orlais, the Chantry, and the Inquisition that became the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars; however, my earlier points were mainly addressing that some people dislike the Chantry of Andraste for one reason or another, and it's seldom an issue of the organization simply being a religion. I'm also not looking to debate the morality of the Chantry or whether they're right or wrong, as it'll sidetrack us from the actual discussion (and it's an issue that people disagree on strongly).

 

People feeling strongly opposed to the Chantry doesn't equate to how they feel about real world religions, since most of the people I know who dislike the Chantry aren't atheist, and are religious. That's what I was trying to get across.

 

As for the war with the Dales, there are two historical accounts (the Chantry and the Dalish version), and each one blames the other as the instigator of the war. The developers refuse to confirm which account is the correct one.

[Spicen]

It's like what Flemeth said, Names are meaningless

True. Though it wud be good to hear.

Hero of Fereldan
Champion of Kirkwall
Herald of Andraste

Teh hall of fame.

But it wud be better if it was, "Salvation of the Maker" or "The Great Messaih of the Maker". Will have to do with andraste it seems.