LOL, *you* insisted that I answer your speculative scenario that isn't in the game, and now you take my answer as applying to the scenario we'll get? Didn't you read my OP? I said I know I have little control over how I'm perceived by the world. All I want is the chance to distance myself from it in a mature manner.
Indeed. And you did answer. And you proved that you do, in fact, not actually wish to discuss this topic, you just want to vent.
Well, you know.. Flagellum Dei hasn'ìt exactly a positive connotation. It means the scourge of God.
Maybe what a Herald is is lost on some people. XD
Do you understand the difference between between the Scourge and the Herald?
@Ieldra2: I still feel like maybe you're personally connecting corruption with "divine goodness". When I say corruption, I'm not at all speaking about the Maker giving you a high five.
Cancer corrupts the body. There's nothing moral about it, and wanting to destroy cancer does not make me a morally self-righteous ******* (at least I don't believe it does).
When we embrace an addict - we can be said to be enabling an addict, and I've met people who would be very offended if they had become addicts and I sought to intervene, but I simply cannot sit back and say: "That person chose to be addicted to heroine. I don't have a right to try to stop them." I find that cold and cruel.
When I say spirit - I don't mean an immortal soul that may or may not get into heaven based on some Friendship/Rivalry system created by a religion. I'm talking about the very real "thing" called a spirit that is a fact in Thedas and passes from the Fade to "wherever" afterward.
I don't believe that not wanting people to be carved out (possessed) and used as a flesh suit is some sort of moral judgement really - nor do I feel that having people turn into ten foot tall flesh bags intent on converting others (by force if necessary) in other ten foot tall flesh bags is healthy for the populace.
I also truly don't feel it's always about what an individual wants. Individuals make wrong choices all the time, and I believe things like morality are designed because a majority of people have made observations about the "best possible baseline" for humanity to form civilization and have found that leaving it as optional - is no option at all.
I don't think there's ever going to be a society where stealing whatever you please... or killing whomever you please... is functional for society. So what's the point on arguing whether a sky god made it up? We're sapient creatures - the only ones we know - if thought is ours alone (and it is, regardless of belief in aliens) then we make the rules and those rules are fact.
The problem comes in when, like the Chantry, a discourse challenging those rules is absolutely forbidden. I am a huge proponent of challenging rules, but making your own simply because you're you... no, I'm not okay with that. Men who make their own rules are dangerous and should be removed from society (I don't mean killed btw, but exile is tougher and tougher these days.)
I haven't even seen one place in these stories where mages tried anything but complain about their situation or resort to violence. Well, yes I have... Wynne, who received vast special dispensation - but the mages just ended up hating her because she wasn't violent and reactionary enough and so, they forced her hand and tricked her.
The Imperium made the Chantry... the Chantry made the current mages... and the current mages look like they're just going to repeat the cycle (only without my mage).
@Medhia Nox:
I take your point about your example of Tevinter.
As for the corruption theme, the reason I'm uncomfortable with it is that it appears to assume that there is a physical and spiritual state of grace from which to deviate is sinful regardless of tangible bad consequences - or their absence. Well, I happen to disagree (for reasons I won't go into unless asked since they're beyond the scope of this topic). If you agree to be possessed, you're most likely stupid, and you're partly responsible for everything the possessing entity does using your faculties, but you're not doing anything immoral as such. If you're possessed without agreeing to it, you're a victim. Either way, no condemnation should result from the possession as such. Also, as a Warden you can tell Wynne "Abomination is as abomination does", so there's an in-world example for the same rationale applying to "physical corruption".
Perhaps I should clarify: I certainly don't count those states as desirable, but all they offend is my sense of aesthetics. Which is important to me but gives me no valid ground to condemn those who offend it. While my own intuition occasionally tries to convince me that aesthetics and morality are connected, I refuse to listen to it because that idea is overruled by my sense of fairness.
Which means that Thedas' magic is no more inherently corrupting than any other kind of...for lack of a better term, "superpower". For me, spiritual and physical corruption are not morally significant concepts, and I am deeply suspicious of any ideology that claims they are, because these inevitable include elements of condemning people for either things they couldn't do anything to avoid, or for intangible evils I don't believe in. That, rather than disagreements about theology, lies at the heart of my dislike of the Chantry.
Edit:
I think that both Wynne's presentation in DAO and Anders' presentation in DA2, as well as the Architect in DAA, make it clear that we're free to make up our minds about this. Thedas' dominant ideology takes a stance but the story so far hasn't. Not unless we're being made complicit in accepting a title such as "Herald of Andraste".
What makes the magic of Thedas interesting as a "superpower" is that it demonstrates just how tempting it would be for people to abuse it. Not everyone is a Clark Kent or a Charles Xavier, absolutely devoted in using their powers only for Good. In a sense, magic is a corrupting influence; giving random people the ability to bend the forces of reality to their will also provides temptation to do that for personal gain. Or perhaps people are a corrupting influence on magic, depending on how you look at it.
As to the whole Andraste thing, I believe we have been told that the inquisitor can express doubts concerning the Maker, and can actually be in opposition to the Chantry, or at least its policies. We have no idea of the context of what Herald of Andraaste means, or how the Inquisitor gets that title. in the end, it is more likely the cause you believe in that matters more than what, if anything the Inquisitor believes in.
I mean, look at the Dresden Files: Sanya, Knight of the Cross, bearer of Esperacchius, the Sword of Hope, given to him by the Archangel Michael. Staunch athiest.
What makes the magic of Thedas interesting as a "superpower" is that it demonstrates just how tempting it would be for people to abuse it. Not everyone is a Clark Kent or a Charles Xavier, absolutely devoted in using their powers only for Good. In a sense, magic is a corrupting influence; giving random people the ability to bend the forces of reality to their will also provides temptation to do that for personal gain. Or perhaps people are a corrupting influence on magic, depending on how you look at it.
As to the whole Andraste thing, I believe we have been told that the inquisitor can express doubts concerning the Maker, and can actually be in opposition to the Chantry, or at least its policies. We have no idea of the context of what Herald of Andraaste means, or how the Inquisitor gets that title. in the end, it is more likely the cause you believe in that matters more than what, if anything the Inquisitor believes in.
I mean, look at the Dresden Files: Sanya, Knight of the Cross, bearer of Esperacchius, the Sword of Hope, given to him by the Archangel Michael. Staunch athiest.
But what if I follow the Elven pantheon? Or the Avvar faith? Or the Paragons? Or the Old Gods? their is a huge difference between 'expressing doubt' and 'being of a completely different faith.
@Vilegrim: And if you call yourself Herald of Gour Stonesimmer the Paragon... the humans of Thedas are going to go... what the hell is a Paragon? That's a "dwarf thing" right? Oh... okay. And Dagna might really like you, along with a few dozen topside dwarves. But - we're not going to dwarf lands (at least to my understanding).
Ten times harder for the elven, Avvar and Old Gods.
The Inquisitor is about what you want... Thedas itself is not about what you (or I, in care you're wondering) want.
That being said - there's still zero proof you can't say: "I'm the Herald of Fen'Harel!" or "I believe in me!"
But what if I follow the Elven pantheon? Or the Avvar faith? Or the Paragons? Or the Old Gods? their is a huge difference between 'expressing doubt' and 'being of a completely different faith.
It will certainly be interesting to see what, say, a Dalish Inquisitor has to say about being hailed as the Herald of Andraste. If that leads to any unique dialogue.
Well, their faith isn't dead if they practice it. And I don't think they're crazier than anyone else in Thedas. Though it seems unlikely that a Free Marcher would follow it.
We know that the title exists and that both Cullen and the Avvar leader in the Fallow Mire use it to refer to the Inquisitor. We know that the writers have stated that the way that the title is handled in the game ought to satisfy people roleplaying both devout Andrastians and non-Andrastians. That's it.
The Avvar barbarian I knew, but Cullen too? And the writers have talked about how it is handled? Damn, I always miss things. Can someone provide a link about this? I want to read more.
It will certainly be interesting to see what, say, a Dalish Inquisitor has to say about being hailed as the Herald of Andraste. If that leads to any unique dialogue.
Andraste is simply a secular war leader to the Dalish, so I can imagine one of the dialogue options should be to refute the idea.
The game has a long way to go if they want to show us that we can divorce the Inquisition from the Chantry.
There are some already evident heavy religious undertones to the Inquisition, the team has Templars and Seekers on it etc... I know that the devs have said we won't be working for the Chantry, and are in fact set up in opposition, but then we hear "The Herald of Andraste" videos of an eldritch horror with presumptions to Divinity, we we see a very divine looking figure reaching out to our inquisitor.
They keep saying we can separate ourselves from this, but we haven't seen any of that side yet. This makes me skeptical that we can in fact truly be entirely separate entities
The game has a long way to go if they want to show us that we can divorce the Inquisition from the Chantry.
There are some already evident heavy religious undertones to the Inquisition, the team has Templars and Seekers on it etc... I know that the devs have said we won't be working for the Chantry, and are in fact set up in opposition, but then we hear "The Herald of Andraste" videos of an eldritch horror with presumptions to Divinity, we we see a very divine looking figure reaching out to our inquisitor.
They keep saying we can separate ourselves from this, but we haven't seen any of that side yet. This makes me skeptical that we can in fact truly be entirely separate entities
We will likely about as separate from the Chantry as the Italian Paramilitary organizations are from the government.
And for those who don't know about the Italian paramilitaries...That isn't very.
They are funded, equipped and trained by the state.
Lucky Jerks, seriously when was the last time you saw a militia group with attack helicopters?
I am reminded of numerous promises from the build-up to Mass Effect 3
The game has a long way to go if they want to show us that we can divorce the Inquisition from the Chantry.
There are some already evident heavy religious undertones to the Inquisition, the team has Templars and Seekers on it etc... I know that the devs have said we won't be working for the Chantry, and are in fact set up in opposition, but then we hear "The Herald of Andraste" videos of an eldritch horror with presumptions to Divinity, we we see a very divine looking figure reaching out to our inquisitor.
They keep saying we can separate ourselves from this, but we haven't seen any of that side yet. This makes me skeptical that we can in fact truly be entirely separate entities
I have to agree. I can't give Bioware the benefit of the doubt after what happened in ME2 with Cerberus, ME3 with the endings and DA2 with the most important person in Thedas. That doesn't mean I don't hope for the best, though.
I just want the ability to complain or be snarky about it even if the game follows the 'But You Must' route. Origins provided enough options to play a very reluctant Warden, for example, and the inclusion of different races with different backstories sound promising. But yeah, so far it seems everyone expects you to be a paragon of Andrastianism.
The Avvar barbarian I knew, but Cullen too? And the writers have talked about how it is handled? Damn, I always miss things. Can someone provide a link about this? I want to read more.
The chances of refusing that shud be as high as the chance Hawke has to refuse his 'champion' title.I'd rather be called the "Emerald Herald"
Otherwise, hopefully we can refuse to be called the Herald of Andraste and just be call the "Herald" after all, we certainly are heralding a new age.....the Inquisition Age.
Cullen shouts "Inquisition! With the Herald! For your lives, for all of us!" in the Enemy of Thedas trailer at 1:25. (Admittedly, it's not one hundred percent clear that it's Cullen saying those things, but the voice sounds reasonably close and he is being shown on the screen as it is said.)
Patrick Weekes tweeted about the title here.
Thanks for the tweet! I hope Patrick Weekes is right, but I'm not sure (I also hope it covers believers in another religion like, you know, the Dalish pantheon for the Dalish Inquisitor). I'm sure Bioware believed that they had handled well pro-Alliance Shepard working for Cerberus, but the result wasn't spectacular. It could have been worse, though (at least you could derail some minor missions for them and in the end there was the option to basically steal the best they had and blow up the rest).
At this rate, the Inquisition will look like an army made of Qyzen Fess. Scorekeeper be praised!
The chances of refusing that shud be as high as the chance Hawke has to refuse his 'champion' title.
That story was about Hawke becoming the Champion of Kirkwall; this story now isn't about the protagonist embracing the title of Herald, but becoming the Inquisitor. Laidlaw and Weekes have both indicated that the story will account for a character who doesn't adhere to the Andrastian faith.
Thanks for the tweet! I hope Patrick Weekes is right, but I'm not sure (I also hope it covers believers in another religion like, you know, the Dalish pantheon for the Dalish Inquisitor).
It will be interesting to see how much they were able to add/change things in the last year. 3 years of 'human only' development vs 1 year of 'and some other races' just doesn't seem like a lot of time to develop all new content. I will be curious to discover how many of the 'other race' choices in some of these conversations are any different than what the 'human non-believer' would have been.
Dwarfs will say looks like a stone. Qunari will say it looks like that 'holy book' of theirs.I like to think whatever that thing was will be up to our interpretation. Some say it looks like the Devine while others say it looks like the statue of Falon'Din. I don't know enough about dwarves or Qunari.
Retour en haut