764 réponses à ce sujet

[TheEternalStudent]

Exactly!

 

You seem to get the gist of it.

So mages are less people than others?
Also, if they're so dangerous why not just execute them?

[TK514]

You are comparing the ability to do magic to having a virulent plague.

 

Actually, I'm comparing the possibility of turning into a demonic entity that can result in a massive death toll to the possibility of carrying a virulent plague that can result in a massive death toll.  Because quarantines aren't just for people who are ill, they also contain people who MIGHT be ill, or who might simply be carriers.

 

The difference, of course, is that with modern medicine we have a much greater chance of determining if someone is infected/a carrier and releasing those who are not.  Thedas has only one such 'treatment' for potential demonic possession, and it is generally considered unacceptable to mages and mage supporters.

[Master Warder Z_]

So mages are less people than others?
Also, if they're so dangerous why not just execute them?

 

No, They are just far more of a threat then other people.

 

Unfortunately the Anders argument doesn't hold water, Normal people don't attract demons like a beacon.

 

A Number of reasons!

 

Mainly because Magic is it self not a genetic or hereditary condition, the appearance of magic is it self a magical event.

 

Can you imagine traveling all across a continent through village after village searching for random mages to behead? It would be a massive waste of resources, no it's better to secure them away where they can be of some use and keep them away from the people they endanger.

 

It's pretty simple.

[Hellion Rex]

Thedas has only one such 'treatment' for potential demonic possession, and it is generally considered unacceptable to mages and mage supporters.

 

Meh, a necessary evil at this time, at least in my opinion. Until we have something better, I don't think we have any other options.

[Master Warder Z_]

Meh, a necessary evil at this time, at least in my opinion. Until we have something better, I don't think we have any other options.

 

:/ And the attempt reversing it cost scores of innocents their lives.

 

I still question the logic of that, Was it worth it? To restore one mage his power? Was his magic and life worth more then the dozens that died as a result of it?

 

Not to mention we never DID learn why he was made tranquil in the first place.

[TheEternalStudent]

No, They are just far more of a threat then other people.

Unfortunately the Anders argument doesn't hold water, Normal people don't attract demons like a beacon.

A Number of reasons!

Mainly because Magic is it self not a genetic or hereditary condition, the appearance of magic is it self a magical event.

Can you imagine traveling all across a continent through village after village searching for random mages to behead? It would be a massive waste of resources, no it's better to secure them away where they can be of some use and keep them away from the people they endanger.

It's pretty simple.

Magic is/can be hereditary. It's a cornerstone of Tevinter society. And you already have to wander Thedas looking for children to take to the Circle, this is easier, you can go faster without having to trail children behind you.
And if they're so dangerous what use would be worth the risk you get by putting a whole bunch of demon beacons together. That's more, not less of an attraction.

[Master Warder Z_]

And you already have to wander Thedas looking for children to take to the Circle, this is easier, you can go faster without having to trail children behind you.

 

Are you serious?

 

Not only would that likely result in possession, but it also denies the Mage in question the ability to actually have their gift put to use.

 

For the service of the Chantry! 

 

 

And if they're so dangerous what use would be worth the risk you get by putting a whole bunch of demon beacons together. That's more, not less of an attraction.

 

Because unfortunately, Mages need education and its more economical to house them together.

 

Seriously, its like you don't understand the concept of a prison work camp or something...

[Icy Magebane]

Magic is/can be hereditary. It's a cornerstone of Tevinter society. And you already have to wander Thedas looking for children to take to the Circle, this is easier, you can go faster without having to trail children behind you.
And if they're so dangerous what use would be worth the risk you get by putting a whole bunch of demon beacons together. That's more, not less of an attraction.

If they are all in the same place when one of them turns, the Templars will be there to deal with it without risking entire villages.  The law must be designed for the good of society, not biased in favor of individual freedom when such freedom is potentially damaging to the whole (although, for the record, I am in favor of a less oppressive version of the Circle).

 

Since this is off-topic, however, I probably shouldn't get too involved...

[TK514]

And if they're so dangerous what use would be worth the risk you get by putting a whole bunch of demon beacons together. That's more, not less of an attraction.

 

It's only a danger to those also in isolation with them.  Origins is a perfect example.  The invasion was contained within the Circle itself, and no outside casualties were incurred.  Only the people under quarantine were at risk.

 

Instead of an incident like Meredith's sister, where scores of innocent people died before she could be brought down.

[TheEternalStudent]

Are you serious?

 

Not only would that likely result in possession, but it also denies the Mage in question the ability to actually have their gift put to use.

 

For the service of the Chantry! 

How is executing them MORE likely to cause possession than sticking them together in places that generally already have a thin boundry between the Fade and Thedas?
Also, if this 'gift' results in revocation of all rights, it's not a gift, at best it's a talent.

 

Because unfortunately, Mages need education and its more economical to house them together.

 

Seriously, its like you don't understand the concept of a prison work camp or something...

...That's not an answer. I'm saying these mages are so dangerous, thier very existence illicits a lifetime punishment, without chance to earn any degree of autonomy. What good is worth that risk? With the resources you use on the Circles you could outfit armies.

[TK514]

How is executing them MORE likely to cause possession than sticking them together in places that generally already have a thin boundry between the Fade and Thedas?
Also, if this 'gift' results in revocation of all rights, it's not a gift, at best it's a talent.

 

...That's not an answer. I'm saying these mages are so dangerous, thier very existence illicits a lifetime punishment, without chance to earn any degree of autonomy. What good is worth that risk? With the resources you use on the Circles you could outfit armies.

 

Because the Chantry is not in the business of butchering children.  Mercy stays their hand.  It was the entire reason the Chantry took Mages in to begin with, to protect them and give them a place of sanctuary.  Even before the Circles, which were ultimately an expansion of what the Chantry already provided.

 

And whatever you may think about their quality of life, with free education, free shelter, free food, and no physical labor or worry about how they are going to be able to survive day to day, even if (in spite of developer statements) you assumed that Kirkwall was the rule rather than the exception, life is certainly better than death.

[Master Warder Z_]

How is executing them MORE likely to cause possession than sticking them together in places that generally already have a thin boundry between the Fade and Thedas?

 

Because as we have seen on numerous occasions in the series, possession comes in moments of strife and weakness, and no doubt attempting to behead a small frightened child would do such.

 

Beyond that, can you say for certain that every circle has a thin veil? Fereldan would make sense given the slaughter that came from uldred, and Kirkwall vice versa, both those are locations soaked in blood.

 

Do you assume every circle is as such?

 

 

 

 

...That's not an answer. I'm saying these mages are so dangerous, thier very existence illicits a lifetime punishment, without chance to earn any degree of autonomy. What good is worth that risk? With the resources you use on the Circles you could outfit armies.

 

Because through magic, you have access to enchantment, war time magic and more, much more.

 

The resources spent are immense, but is it worth the risk you ask? Why wouldn't it be? Do you think Mage should be executed outright? I do not, I do however believe they need to be locked away from society and only brought out when required.

 

Magic can heal, destroy and do much good, but it can also unleash more suffering then just about anything else i can think of in dragon age.

[TheEternalStudent]

Because as we have seen on numerous occasions in the series, possession comes in moments of strife and weakness, and no doubt attempting to behead a small frightened child would do such.

 

Beyond that, can you say for certain that every circle has a thin veil? Fereldan would make sense given the slaughter that came from uldred, and Kirkwall vice versa, both those are locations soaked in blood.

 

Do you assume every circle is as such?

So don't tell the parents, and then drug them.
I can't say for sure, but first, so does the White Spire, Val Royeaux's and they housed the mages in old Tevinter buildings that belonged to mages, who often used blood magic. Also repeated use of blood magic weakens the veil, so unless you can find a way to ensure none of these mages ever uses blood magic, the veil will weaken, if it doesn't through the use of normal magic and spirit healing.

 

Because through magic, you have access to enchantment, war time magic and more, much more.

 

The resources spent are immense, but is it worth the risk you ask? Why wouldn't it be? Do you think Mage should be executed outright? I do not, I do however believe they need to be locked away from society and only brought out when required.

 

Magic can heal, destroy and do much good, but it can also unleash more suffering then just about anything else i can think of in dragon age.

It also makes it easier for them to escape, gives them desperation and people relying on them to do more and more, and exposure to blood-soaked battlefields where the veil is thin. And I don't think they should be executed outright, I am saying killing a person seems more merciful then denying that they are.
I don't support mage pure autonomy
, but I don't support deciding that this person is now merely a tool to be used and then put back when not needed.

[Hellion Rex]

 

Beyond that, can you say for certain that every circle has a thin veil? Fereldan would make sense given the slaughter that came from uldred, and Kirkwall vice versa, both those are locations soaked in blood.

 

Do you assume every circle is as such?

They don't even need blood magic or bloodshed. Lots and lots of magic use in a confined area would make the Veil pretty thin over the course of nearly nine hundred years.

[TheJediSaint]

You guys make the weakening of the Veil sound like tooth decay.

[Master Warder Z_]

You guys make the weakening of the Veil sound like tooth decay.

 

Pity Listerine won't work here...

[TheEternalStudent]

You guys make the weakening of the Veil sound like tooth decay.

Tooth decay is serious buisness, brush three times daily to avoid demons pouring out of your mouth when you open it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Because the Chantry is not in the business of butchering children.  Mercy stays their hand.  It was the entire reason the Chantry took Mages in to begin with, to protect them and give them a place of sanctuary.  Even before the Circles, which were ultimately an expansion of what the Chantry already provided.

 

And whatever you may think about their quality of life, with free education, free shelter, free food, and no physical labor or worry about how they are going to be able to survive day to day, even if (in spite of developer statements) you assumed that Kirkwall was the rule rather than the exception, life is certainly better than death.

 

Anders would disagree. Give them liberty, or give them death- either is acceptable (to him).

[TheEternalStudent]

Because the Chantry is not in the business of butchering children.  Mercy stays their hand.  It was the entire reason the Chantry took Mages in to begin with, to protect them and give them a place of sanctuary.  Even before the Circles, which were ultimately an expansion of what the Chantry already provided.

 

And whatever you may think about their quality of life, with free education, free shelter, free food, and no physical labor or worry about how they are going to be able to survive day to day, even if (in spite of developer statements) you assumed that Kirkwall was the rule rather than the exception, life is certainly better than death.

The problem is, they define mercy. They've decided this is the more merciful option. Thier mercy chafes the neck.
None of what they give is free, in return they live in a police state, where the atrocities in Kirkwall (which I do not believe were common) did not result in the Seekers even stopping by. (A subject Cassandra and I will have Words about I hope)
I would not agree continued respiration is better than death, but the Chantry have decided what is right, and can inflict horrors for the mages good.

[Master Warder Z_]

Anders would disagree. Give them liberty, or give them death- either is acceptable (to him).

 

Anders was a nut.

[BloodKaiden]

Anders would disagree. Give them liberty, or give them death- either is acceptable (to him).

Meh, I agree to a point with Anders. I just can't stand all this mage and templar whining but I can see both sides. I'd honestly just be an apostate if I was born a mage. I don't need the Circle/Templar drama interfering with my day to day life.

[LobselVith8]

Maybe we should give Ieldra some consideration and return to the topic of 'Herald of Andraste', and not derail this thread into another circular mage-templar debate where people who disagree continue to disagree.

[BloodKaiden]

Anders was a nut.

Several people were nuts in Kirkwall. Mages and Templars alike.

In an attempt to remain on topic, I don't see the title as being the only option given when we have anti chantry PC's.

[Dean_the_Young]

The problem is, they define mercy. They've decided this is the more merciful option. Thier mercy chafes the neck.

 

How does that disqualify it from mercy?

 

I'm not sure how the Chantry (and Mages, if you look back at the history) deciding that mercy is social segregation rather than the alternatives of the times is in question. In the current age, the alternatives for mages are tranquility and risking a mob lynching if they're identified as mages by the public. In the age of terror that saw the creation of the Circle system, the alternatives for mages were... mob lynching.

 

There are a lot of goals and alternatives to the Circle system, but in light of some of the actual alternatives in a culture that has an extreme adversion to even allowing the possibility of the rise of a mageocracy, it's hard not to acknowledge that social segregation can be the lesser of evils.

 

None of what they give is free, in return they live in a police state, where the atrocities in Kirkwall (which I do not believe were common) did not result in the Seekers even stopping by. (A subject Cassandra and I will have Words about I hope)

 

And?

 

Besides that we don't know whether Seekers stopped by or not, you're just listing par for course for Thedas. Atrocities just about everywhere generally lack justice and accountability. Considering the scale of the pre-annulment crimes in the Kirkwall Circle versus, say, the City Elves of Denerim alone, and Mages are pretty low on the totem poll of suffering and injustice.

I would not agree continued respiration is better than death, but the Chantry have decided what is right, and can inflict horrors for the mages good.

 

Your opinion is irrelevant. By virtue of not having committed suicide or taking tranquility, both of which are freely available, the majority of mages have also agreed that continued respiration with their emotional faculties is better than death. If you are within the confines of the circle and believe death is better than continued respiration, there is an entire force on stand by to help you resolve that if you so desire.

 

If you really want to get down to who decides what is right, it would also be helpful to look at broad societal consensus on what right is. The primary opponents of the Circle system are a sub-group of mages. The people who believe the intent and system are better than not include the rest of the mages, and pretty much every non-mage (which would be the other 99% of the population).

[TheEternalStudent]

How does that disqualify it from mercy?

 

I'm not sure how the Chantry (and Mages, if you look back at the history) deciding that mercy is social segregation rather than the alternatives of the times is in question. In the current age, the alternatives for mages are tranquility and risking a mob lynching if they're identified as mages by the public. In the age of terror that saw the creation of the Circle system, the alternatives for mages were... mob lynching.

 

There are a lot of goals and alternatives to the Circle system, but in light of some of the actual alternatives in a culture that has an extreme adversion to even allowing the possibility of the rise of a mageocracy, it's hard not to acknowledge that social segregation can be the lesser of evils.

 

And?

 

Besides that we don't know whether Seekers stopped by or not, you're just listing par for course for Thedas. Atrocities just about everywhere generally lack justice and accountability. Considering the scale of the pre-annulment crimes in the Kirkwall Circle versus, say, the City Elves of Denerim alone, and Mages are pretty low on the totem poll of suffering and injustice.

 

Your opinion is irrelevant. By virtue of not having committed suicide or taking tranquility, both of which are freely available, the majority of mages have also agreed that continued respiration with their emotional faculties is better than death. If you are within the confines of the circle and believe death is better than continued respiration, there is an entire force on stand by to help you resolve that if you so desire.

 

If you really want to get down to who decides what is right, it would also be helpful to look at broad societal consensus on what right is. The primary opponents of the Circle system are a sub-group of mages. The people who believe the intent and system are better than not include the rest of the mages, and pretty much every non-mage (which would be the other 99% of the population).

Who says suicide is freely available? I don't think the Templars would allow the mages to just start offing themselves when that's not allowed in criminal prisons. I discount most non-mage opinion as uninformed, Tranquil are raped, and either most people don't care or don't know. I pray to god it's the latter. And a majority of mages are so opposed to the system they felt justified in declaring independance, while a seperate section agreed things needed to change, just not so drastically. Virtually all the mages agreed the situation sucked, they disagreed on the correct method of reaction.