351 réponses à ce sujet

[KC_Prototype]

Why would you want to kill Hawke???!!! I was dead after nerdgasm seeing Hawke in the new trailer, I am soooooo excited to see my Hawke in DAI. I've never heard someone want to kill a former protagonist, what's up with BSN? 

[Sidney]

People are far too hard on Hawke - there is nothing he/she could have done to prevent most of the events of DA2. At least in Acts 1+2, - Act 3 is a litlle different, as I'll get to later. Basically its still the case in Act 3 that Hawke has very limited room to influence events, but the rushed nature of the final Act makes any in depth analysis rather pointless - it simply is too rushed and mishandled to give a fair appraisal of any of the character's actions during that Act.

 

Act 3 is sorta rushed although I think with a better setup in Acts 1 and 2 it wouldn't feel so bad. To me, the biggest weakness is that I don't see Meredith spiraling out of control and across the line from wary to paranoid.

 

The problem for Hawke, and the point of the game, is that he can't save everyone. This isn't THAT story. We got that story in DAO, DA2 is about a mere mortal trying to hold together than which really can't be saved because far too many people don't want to save it.

[KaiserShep]

Why would you want to kill Hawke???!!! I was dead after nerdgasm seeing Hawke in the new trailer, I am soooooo excited to see my Hawke in DAI. I've never heard someone want to kill a former protagonist, what's up with BSN? 

 

 

DA2 is one of those games that inspires a noxious form of hatred from a number of players in the forum, so I can see why some people want to off Hawke, since this PC is basically at the epicenter of the explosion that killed kittens, puppies and magic when the game was released. Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and assume that the only way people may get their wish is to do so indirectly by having a "bad ending" where the demons win, and even then you won't likely see the actual death.

[SurelyForth]

I love how vitriolic some people are about Hawke not being a good enough hero, when Hawke is still way more capable than most unexceptional mortals would be in her position. Like, get caught between magistrates and viscounts and church higher-ups and templars and the leader of the single largest military threat to your entire continent and see how much you can accomplish before ending up imprisoned or hung or shot through with a qunari arrow.

 

Heck, I'll make it easier- neither you nor anyone in your family is a mage.

 

(also, weren't the Grey Wardens going to **** around with Cory even if Hawke didn't? It's been awhile, but I was under the impression that Hawke had to fight him because the alternative was someone else letting him free on purpose.) 

[deuce985]

How awkward would it be for your Inquisitor to murder knife Hawke? I was waiting for this thread. I knew BSN would make one.

[KaiserShep]

Corypheus's escape is still on Hawke's head since he failed to kill Cory especially after he used the Key to unseal him.

But to Hawke's credit the plot demanded them to be incompetent through the lack of initiative, alzheimers, and or common sense in order to move the conflict towards it's intended climax. Cory's and Tallis' situations were like beating a dead horse with a stick.

 

I think people are really fond of running away with theories about what the end of Legacy even means for the rest of the series. Like, is Corypheus actually alive? We get creepy music and a change in the Warden's behavior, but that's not really absolute proof, is it? What if future games never even touch on this matter? Could I just as well assume that Cory is actually dead then? IF Cory somehow did transfer his consciousness into one of the other Wardens, is he still a threat in that new form? Is Larius now a super ghoul that still possesses the ability to control people with the taint? Is Janeka now the most badass mage alive with the same ability? Will it be the Vigo of Thedas?

 

Also, what's this about common sense? Common sense about what? We as the player have the privilege of getting all that juicy information on darkspawn, old gods and archdemons, but the vast majority of people in Thedas are totally in the dark on the details. Heck, even some Wardens don't know, so it's not exactly an obvious logical jump to assume that maybe Corypheus lives on in some other Grey Warden, which would be especially weird to assume since you can have two Grey Warden companions with you the entire time.

[Marshal Moriarty]

I just don't understand how people think Hawke could or should investigate Petrice in Act 1. How exactly would that work? Is Hawke supposed to be hiring spies and have them inflitrate the chantry and try to catch her getting up to no good? Does that sound even remotely plausible? Even paying people to shadow her is completely impractical, given the time and money that would take (and Hawke is trying to make money, not spend it). With no contacts in the chantry hierarchy (Sebastian doesn't join until Act 2), Hawke has no real opportunities to keep tabs on Petrice, no reason to do so (she's shady, but so are lots of people in Kirkwall), and Hawke has an expedition to fund and family to look after. Its hardly a quiet time in Hawke's life, without mounting a completely impractical round the clock surveillance on Petrice. 

 

At this time in the game, Hawke has no firm view or understanding of how the city is run. You can meet the Viscount once (in an optional quest), but that's about it. At this time, Hawke is most active amongst the underclass, and only occasionally comes into contact with the movers and shakers. It is through those brief encounters that they realize Hawke is a dynamic force in a stagnant city, and all parties seek to turn that to their advantage in Act 2. In Act 1 however, Hawke is simply trying to keep under the radar, make some money and stablize his/her family's position in the city. Its far too early for the character to be thinking of solving the city's big problems, and its before Hawke has gotten a real understanding of the personalities involved. People usually assume that the authorities will take care of really big problems - maybe not in the most effiicient way, but most people don't assume they need to be the one to solve everything. Hawke and Aveline etc do realize in Act 2 that they will have to act, but that's when they have the necessary facts and have made the necessary contacts to be able to communicate their opinions and exert their influence on the people who matter in these conflicts.

 

As for warning people about the idol... who would listen to something like that? 'There's a magic statue that makes people go crazy - it could threaten the city!' Yeah, people would really take notice of that. Even assuming Hawke explained properly and gave evidence and eyewitness accounts of the danger it poses, it is just one incident in a city full of much more visible and immediate threats. They don't have time to be chasing after potentially dangerous statuettes that may or may not be in the city. The city has serial killers, blood mage covens, qunari and chantry skirmishes, plots against the viscount, attempts to incite the public, demonic posession being used as a weapon against the templars etc etc etc. One idol which caused one dwarf to lose his already questionable sanity, and kill his own staff in a bloody but apparently isolated tragedy, will have no traction with anyone in power.

 

Of all the things that Hawke sees, all the artifacts found, people met, things witnessed, who is to say what and whom will be the most dangerous? Petrice was just one of a legion of shady and dangerous characters in Act 1. So too was the idol just one of many strange and lethal artifacts uncovered at this time. Feynriel's apparent slip towards full demonic possession, or the threat posed by Merills's deadly mirror (especially for those who played DA:O as a Dalish Elf and know the true menace that the mirror represents), would both command more attention you would think. Tarohne's plot to inflitrate the Templars with sleeper agent demons (and seed blood mage agents throughout the city) was a massacre narrowly avoided - what if Hawke hadn't stopped that plot?!

 

Hawke can't be everywhere at once, can't act blindly and can't be expected to see years into the future. With the delicate political nature of the threats in Kirkwall, and Hawke's status as being either on the run from or sheltering a family from the Templars, *and* having to work his/her way up from nothing, Hawke does a damn fine job of trying to stem the tide. Hawke saves the city from all manner of crises big and small, but the bigger issues at hand are simply too huge for one heroes or set of heroes to address (Mage equality and the Templar Order's crisis of identity in the face of growing public support for mage equality, the Qunari and Chantry who have mutually incompatible views of how life should be, the threats of ancients demonic forces who even if killed can simply bide their time and strike again...) These kinds of problems have no quick fixes, and can only be worked at little by little.

 

Given all that Hawke does for Kirkwall, its ungrateful in the extreme for anyone to blame him/her for what happened, and/or say 'Yeah, you did all those things... but what have you done for me lately?' The whole point of the framed narrative shows through the interactions of Cassandra and Varric, how ludicrous it is to judge Hawke in such a harsh way. Cassandra comes at the interrogation from a 'Hawke was there and during that time the Mages revolted and all this chaos happened - HAWKE'S TO BLAME!!!!' But over the course of the game, she comes to realize what a lazy, inaccurate assessment that is. Varric is a practised liar who has a vested interest in putting a good spin on things where he thinks he can get away with it, she is looking for confirmation of what she thinks is true. And even though all that, the one thing that becomes obvious is that Hawke is not to blame, and did about good a job as anyone reasonable could under the circumstances.

 

I can't believe Hawke gets all this grief. Given the less than stellar intellectual prowess of Bioware's main characters, Hawke comes across as a genius. Just look at the actions of Revan from KOTOR, and Shepard from the Mass Effect series, and you see characters who had no right to succeed in their missions. 'Bring us evidence and we'll consider what you say, Shepard... What;'s that, you're asking us to take all your crazy talk on faith *again*, and you want us to send our fleet to the most unstable region in the galaxy? Sure, why not...

 

Shepard's proposition to the Council in real world terms would go something like this:

 

Shepard: 'Hey there, UN security council, I've heard of a portal that will unleash ancient demons FROM HELL to KILL US ALL!

 

UN: That's... quite a claim. Er... demons. As in *actual* biblical demons... this is crazy! Who let this guy in here?!

 

Shepard: Oh for GOD'S SAKE! Hell NO I don't have evidence, you damn pencil pushing fools! Well, I kind of dreamt about it once, if that counts.

 

UN: Well... not really, no. We were thinking more like camera footage of this portal, the demons you mention, or maybe recorded testimony from a credible source or something...

 

Shepard: What is WRONG with you people?! I'm TELLING YOU its true! We need to get on this!

 

UN: Look calm down. Say we did agree to this. What would be involved?

 

Shepard: Ah, at last you help. Thanks for fricking nothing, you bunch of... Anyway, so here's what I need - I need you to take the American airborne, the British SAS and RAF, the French navy, everything we can get basically and we'll hit that portal good.

 

UN: Riiight - that's not a small request, you know. Where would we be taking this combined force. Because if you're thinking or Russia or something like that, then...

 

Shepard: No, no, no, do you think I'm crazy?! Its cool - its in Tehran. So are we good?

 

UN: You want us to send a western strike force into IRAN?!!!! Hell, send a military force like there *anywhere* in the Middle East?! Somebody get this guy out of here - and garrote him in an alley before he tells anyone else about this nonsense!

 

Shepard: Hey, what gives? Damn you politicians! Damn youuuu!

 

 

And that's before we even get to Shepard buying into Cerberus' bull despite *knowing* who and what they are, and my personal favourite - falling for the old 'our big and powerful ship is disabled, please come close and investigate' gag - the oldest trick in the book! Or how about 'We captured a Geth - let's store it on board the Normandy. We can put it... in EDI's AI core room. That seems like the perfect place...' We could have put it in the cargo storage bay, but we're keeping the dangerous Krogan could burst out of that pod and murder the whole engineering staff, down there...'

 

Suddenly, Hawke seems much intelligent for some reason...

[Mr.House]

If by 'instigated' you mean 'unfortunately happened to be in the area when it occurred and got blamed for it', probably a lot.

 

If by 'instigated' you mean 'actually had a major hand in causing', probably about as many as s/he did in DA2. That is, none.

Also people who want to kill Hawke make me sad.

If Cory and the red lyruim are involve,d then yes. Hawke is responsible for that. You can maybe argue that Hawke didn't know the effect the red lyruim would have but there's no excuse for Cory.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I'm not sure what else people expect Hawke to have done about Corypheus. The seals were failing anyway. Hawke did their best to kill him, and believes that they succeeded.

 

It's blindingly obvious to us that he jumped bodies, but what reason does Hawke have to think that's even possible? We only know that type of magic exists because we learned in DAO that it's how Archdemons work. Hawke lacks our metaknowledge of the system.

[LaughingWolf]

I don't understand the complaining about Hawke not successfully killing Corypheus?
I mean, the only reason we know he survived is because of our meta knowledge of the lore we got from DA:O on how the taint and Old Gods work.
Hawke has every reason to believe he killed Corypheus.
You gotta seperate you're knowledge, and the knowledge of your character.
It's like if we meet Tallis again; we all know she's a Qunari spy and a backstabber, but our character wouldn't know as this is their first time meeting them.

[Sir George Parr]

Why would you want to kill Hawke???!!! I was dead after nerdgasm seeing Hawke in the new trailer, I am soooooo excited to see my Hawke in DAI. I've never heard someone want to kill a former protagonist, what's up with BSN? 

Its just easier to blame the player character, than the failings of the story that Bioware choose to tell with that character. How a lot of events could have being easily nipped in the bud by Hawke, if only the developers had allowed you to have a choice in the matter.

[brightblueink]

I'm a little baffled by people that want to kill a character just because they didn't like them (or the game that they're from). I mean, I've had plenty of characters whom I've initially found boring (I'm sorry, I don't care about the dog in Origins, and I didn't like Sten either--I was wrong about Sten, I'll admit, but I still don't care about the dog), annoying, or even at times morally reprehensible. But I've never actively sought for a way to kill them in a game because of it?

 

Then again, I'm more of a roleplayer in Bioware games, so it comes down to "does it make sense for my character to attack them?" than "Do I like this character enough to spare their lives?" but...still. It's a little weird, guys.

[mashasi]

I'd guess either the Warden or Hawke will die during DAI.

[Fearsome1]

...can we kill him/her? Here's hoping the answer is yes

 

Since there isn't an "unlike" button to click, I quoted your post in order to MASSIVELY "un-like" it within the thread. Pretend that Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries was playing in the background while I was slamming my poor finger down on that button!

[Chewin]

The problem with Hawke is that he is portraid in the game as someone who achieves his/her goal by simply killing everyone that stand in his way (to put it simply). He is also portraid as a person that simply deals with the different threats b/c he has no other choice than do it without ending up dead or making it worse for him (e.g. the Qunari during act 2, the Mage/Templar incident in act 3). He is portraid as a lazy person that instead of doing something about it (during the years between the acts), he waits it to simply fall to him 'til he has no other way. In act 2, Hawke kills the Arishok (in one outcome that is). That doesn't necessarily make him--as some would call him-- "ineffectual". But it's the fact that he saves Kirkwall by simply killing many Qunari by himself that makes it a bit unbelievable.

 

That was not the impression I (and the majority of people I would bet) got from the marketing and BW was giving us when they introduced Hawke and his "rise to power". A rise to power is about building connections you can rely on. A rise to power is about politics. Most of the people Hawke interacts with could in fact help him save the city. The smugglers or mercenaries, Vanard's forces (if he has any) or the elves of the alienage, etc. That's what DAII should've been about, in my opinion. Story changing. How did Hawke rise to power? Who did he ally with that helped him? Who were his allies outside of the companions that he could call on when he needed them? Not through what important person(s) he killed to achieve it.

 

He's not proactive, and that's the major problem I have with him. A shortsighted character that has the inability to look forward and anticipate the consequences of his actions. Sure, you could call him a survivor - that's cool, if you want to believe that. But he can hardly take credit for being "the person who changed Thedas". In fact, I think Aveline said it best; "you stumbled into being Champion."

 

The Corypheus incident can't be blamed on Hawke, since our metaknowledge about the whole situation is what makes us doubt Cory is dead. However, letting Tallis go in Mark of the Assassin just further portrays Hawke as the idiot he / she is.

 

So while I might loathe Hawke, I have no sort of 'vendetta' against him. If Hawke shows up and actually does something proactive for once or something similar, then I won't have any problem with him. 

[KennethAFTopp]

Will the look of the Hawke's be based on the default face?

[WildOrchid]

*snip*

 

Yeah, totally agree with you. All this Hakwe blaming is really grating on my nerves, which clearly shows they didn't play the game more than 1-2 playthroughs (and i can assure you i've done many DA2 playthroughs than any other bioware game). Hawke is far more smarter than Shepard, yet Shepard is praised. Give me a break, it's not Hawke's fault that everything around her goes out of control.

 

 

If you still didn't like DA2, it isn't Hawke's fault. Blame the writing, not the protagonist.

 

 

 

 

Will the look of the Hawke's be based on the default face?

 

No. You can customize your Hawke.

Seriously, with customizable protagonists, you really think bioware would go with the default faces only? They used their default for the trailer only.

[KennethAFTopp]

No. You can customize your Hawke.

Seriously, with customizable protagonists, you really think bioware would go with the default faces only? They used their default for the trailer only.

 

Eh, who knows, maybe. I do wonder how they will do it then.
 

[The Hierophant]

He's not proactive, and that's the major problem I have with him. A shortsighted character that has the inability to look forward and anticipate the consequences of his actions. Sure, you could call him a survivor - that's cool, if you want to believe that. But he can hardly take credit for being "the person who changed Thedas". In fact, I think Aveline said it best; "you stumbled into being Champion."
 
The Corypheus incident can't be blamed on Hawke, since our metaknowledge about the whole situation is what makes us doubt Cory is dead. However, letting Tallis go in Mark of the Assassin just further portrays Hawke as the idiot he / she is.
 
So while I might loathe Hawke, I have no sort of 'vendetta' against him. If Hawke shows up and actually does something proactive for once or something similar, then I won't have any problem with him.

Agreed, especially on the bolded. Now about Cory, what you said is true. It's doubtful that your average GW knows about him or his powers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Share your headcanon with the class, Sylvius.

Also I'm using you as a basis for a wizard companion in the Pillars of Eternity beta, hope you don't mind.

Not at all.

Okay, so basically everything Varric says about Hawke is an elaborate cover story.

Hawke didn't flee the Blight. He was driven out of Lothering for his unsavory magical experiments. Because of the coming Blight, though, he went to Kirkwall, hoping to find the resources he needed to continue his research, and to take advantage of the local poverty to find subjects for that research.

Unfortunately, with his Uncle Gamlen having squandered thw family fortune, the expected resources weren't there. So, Hawke entered a business arrangement with the slavers in Darktown, which granted him both funds and subjects. Leandra discovered his venture, however, and had to be disposed of. Hawke had long tired of her whinging about how he should try to be more like Malcolm, so it was quite satisfying to reanimate her.

Varric concocted the story of the serial killer to explain the remaining evidence.

Hawke and Anders got along famously, but Anders mellowed with age and threatened to reveal their long-term plan to incite a full-blown mage-templar war by blowing up the Chantry. Hawke was forced to kill Anders to keep him quiet, and then carried out the plan. Varric blamed the whole thing on Anders, and gave Hawke credit for killing him afterward.

The fictional Hawke was a hero. The real Hawke was an evil mastermind and revolutionary.

[Jayce]

Petrice wasn't a prominent chantry figure until she was promoted after act 1. Aside from killing Petrice to curb her plot and influence among the Chantry faithful, the issue is that Hawke made no attempt whatsoever to undermine her scheme despite Petrice clearly explaining her plan to instigate conflict between Kirkwall against the Qunari. Petrice having the ability to murk a squad of Qunari should've set off alarm bells.

 

How? Hawke can tell both the Grand Cleric and the Viscount what Petrice has been up to. It's not Hawke's fault the Grand Cleric does nothing when told and the Viscount refuses to act without more evidence than Hawke's word. The only other recourse is to turn vigilante and kill Petrice which would get you locked up by Aveline, as without proof Hawke would be committing murder.

[The Hierophant]

Hey i figure attempting to do anything is better than doing squat. Plus Aveline arresting Hawke is not a forgone conclusion. This is the same person who chalked up the pile body parts of Quentin's victims to the work of bandits despite the jewellery being left behind, and didn't investigate the foundry properly. If she isn't in the party what evidence besides rumors does she have?

[Paul E Dangerously]

I expected That Guy, the thread. I was not disappointed. I'd start on why it's wrong and where, but Marshal Moriarty did a damned good job of summing it up already.

 

Really, the most Hawke is guilty of is being written like a moron. Can you really hate a character because they're forced to carry the Idiot Ball because the game shipped a year or so too early and he's the only thing holding the plot (such as it is) together?

 

For what it's worth, I would've just sided with the Arishok. Kirkwall is a dump for a lot of reasons, and the Qunari could fix it. It wouldn't be the nicest, most freedom-loving sort of way, but hey.

[LexXxich]

I place "BW will kill Hawke no matter player does" as more probable than "BW will let player kill Hawke".

[Mummy22kids]

I think if Hawke can help the inquisitor in some way then I'm happy to have her along and keep her alive, if she's a threat then I'll kill her, if it's just a random cameo like Alistair in DA2 then Meh.