351 réponses à ce sujet

[Killdren88]

You all act like Hawke is pure evil and must die. Seriously He/she did all they could with what information they had at the time.

[Killdren88]

Double post my bad.

[Mr.House]

You all act like Hawke is pure evil and must die. Seriously He/she did all they could with what information they had at the time.

Uh no we don't. Some of us like Hawke but also know Hawke screwed up big time and has to redeem her self. Don't lump everyone into the same pot.

[KaiserShep]

Larious(sp) all of a sudden being able to talk properly or the 180 in Jenekas personality is enough to raise alarm bells for anyone. You don't need ominous music and a evil smile to know that Cory is alive and using their body to get away.

 

This pretty much comes down to whether or not it makes sense for someone to kill someone based solely on an assumption. No one "knows" anything there, because there's absolutely no way to. Is it Corypheus possession? Was Larius suffering under the incessant mimicking call of the darkspawn prior to its defeat? Was Cory playing Slim Whitman on a continuous loop in his head? There's no precedence from their perspective to make this conclusion, only our own meta-knowledge of the DAverse. Sure it's obvious, to the player, because whether the player likes to admit it or not, he/she is at an advantage of having foreboding imagery and lore to expand their perspective.

[Johnny Shepard]

Uh no. Hawke always frees and fights Cory, no matter what. It always happens. this is a canon event, confirmed by Bioware and is in the official timeline on DAI site. If Cory was not back, there would not be any need to make such an event canon let alone put it on the timeline. Put this with mind controlling going on in the wardens(which is recent), the surviving warden never returning to the wardens, all the strange stuff that happened after the battle and the achievement leak that is most likely legit . It's clear Cory is back and this is Hawkes fault for not properly making sure the situation was finished. Unless Hawkes role in this game is to counter this mistake and Hawke helps to kill Cory for good. Hawke needs to redeem herself for her mistakes that have caused alot of issues, that does not mean she should die but writing her off on everything she has done(or didn't do would be better) is also silly as she could have stopped many things from happening if she was not lazy.

 

Petrice? She's just a random mother who tried to spark a religious war and tried to get you killed, kill her and be done with it.

Anders?  Clearly unstable and should have been dealt with after he tried to kill an innocent mage

Quintin? Do a in-depth search of the factory after finding a womans finger and her phylactery pointing to that factory

Cory? Kill any wardens there to ensure nothing escapes

Talis: Kill her to get the qunari spy list

 

ect. The list goes on.

1. So Hawke should have murdered Petrice? Just like that he should have put himself above the law instead of doing as he did and report her?

2. And Hawke should have killed his friend because he is unstable? Is that what you would have done if a dear friend to you suddenly got mental problems and tried to kill someone? Kill him?

3. That was up the the guards, not Hawke. And the Templars wouldn't play ball so how would he get the phylactery? Break in to the Circle, kill some Templars and get it?

4. Again with the murder. You want him to murder everybody? How would that make Hawke a good guy? And how could he have suspected what would happen? If he did this he would be no better than Petrice.

5. Again, killing a friend. And what say he could take her even if he tried? He reported it. Also, the Qunari already have the list. It was their list so them getting it was no danger.

 

1:Except she failed to kill it.

2:Reporting things way after it's done is pointless. Hawke should have acted there instead of waiting.

3:You blame Isabela but not Petrice  or Hawke(who let Petrice go at a time she could have killed her and been done with it) who was the one who sparked the religious overtones of the conflict, seems legit.

1. Yes, but he have no way of knowing that. It's like nothing he ever faced before.

2. Why? He's not the law. It's like saying that if you see someone murdering someone you should kill him instead of reporting it. Hawke is just a guy, not some super-Sheriff.

3. Who said I don't blame Petrice. But she's a villain. And again, he reported her and the Chantry did nothing. You don't just go around and murder people because you think they are bad. Remember that Hawke had no proof. He suspected it but he never knew and she never confirmed what she did. She denied it all. What if he killed her and then found out he was wrong? Say "oops"? Just killing people how ever you like because you feel they are bad is not right. This would make him no better than Petrice.

 

Ends would justify the means? My guess is you joined the Templars because you clearly feel that you should kill people just to be safe. So what if some innocent gets killed as long as the bad gets it also?

 

Larious(sp) all of a sudden being able to talk properly or the 180 in Jenekas personality is enough to raise alarm bells for anyone. You don't need ominous music and a evil smile to know that Cory is alive and using their body to get away.

So because Larious suddenly talked better and Jenekas was different he should have realized that Cory had taken over a new body, something he had never seen or heard of before and didn't know was possible? Even demons can't take over someone without the person agreeing to do so. It's like blaming the parents in "A Nightmare on Elm Street" for all the murders because they should have predicted that Freddy would come back from the dead and kill their children in their dreams. Nobody expects the unexpected, that's why it's unexpected.

[Johnny Shepard]

This pretty much comes down to whether or not it makes sense for someone to kill someone based solely on an assumption. No one "knows" anything there, because there's absolutely no way to. Is it Corypheus possession? Was Larius suffering under the incessant mimicking call of the darkspawn prior to its defeat? Was Cory playing Slim Whitman on a continuous loop in his head? There's no precedence from their perspective to make this conclusion, only our own meta-knowledge of the DAverse. Sure it's obvious, to the player, because whether the player likes to admit it or not, he/she is at an advantage of having foreboding imagery and lore to expand their perspective.

Exactly. In fact we don't even know if Cory really did take over their body. We all think he did and the fact that the warden then disappear points to it but we don't know. Not until Bioware say it's so or we clearly find out in DA:I.

Maybe it's not Cory? Maybe something evil had taken a lift with him from the Black City? Cory knew nothing when you woke him and still thought it was in the old days. And Larious and Jenekas didn't talk like him. Maybe he got their memories in his new body or maybe something else were behind it all and tricking Hawke, the wardens and Cory. Maybe a herald of the old one who then started to make plans to free his master?

[KaiserShep]

I'm not sure why Anders should even be Hawke's responsibility. It's not like she even brought that joker to Kirkwall, and you can ignore him after getting what you need from him anyway. That she doesn't simply murder him after his freakout in Dissent doesn't change anything. Choosing not to kill people you know doesn't make you responsible for the crazy choices they might make later. Hell, Anders could just as well have hung himself in the clinic dealing with this Justice issues for all we knew.

[Mr.House]

You guys do know Hawke killed people for less so killing someone on a valid assumption, and a corrupt priest is hardly an issue and not everyone considered Anders a friend?

[Mr.House]

Also if you help Anders with the bombs you are responsible, it does not matter if you where tricked or not. A Hawke that helps Anders can be held responsible, but it seems everyone just wants to think Hawke did no wrong.

[Drasanil]

You guys do know Hawke killed people for less so killing someone on a valid assumption, and a corrupt priest is hardly an issue and not everyone considered Anders a friend?

 

This. Liked

[The Hierophant]

lol Anders.

But he could be instrumental in the disposing of Varnell's and Petrice's corpses. Magic or cannibalism? Take your pick?

[KaiserShep]

You guys do know Hawke killed people for less so killing someone on a valid assumption, and a corrupt priest is hardly an issue and not everyone considered Anders a friend?

 

For those that wouldn't consider Anders a friend, why would they visit him after his purpose is fulfilled? Once he gets you the maps, you can basically ignore him and leave him to his Darktown clinic shenanigans by his lonesome. Given his very erratic nature, which is made apparent right from the start, you basically have enough to know whether or not you wish to associate with him further.

 

Also if you help Anders with the bombs you are responsible, it does not matter if you where tricked or not. A Hawke that helps Anders can be held responsible, but it seems everyone just wants to think Hawke did no wrong.

 

The key word here is if.

 

This is sort of like Sh0tGuNjUlIa's criticism of Shepard's idiotic line about the asari mating with their own species. Sure, it's dumb, but you can avoid the dumb choice of dialogue.

 

This kind of reminds me of criticism I've read around here about how Hawke wipes out the Dalish clan on Sundermount, as if it's a fixed event.

[Johnny Shepard]

So killing someone because they might be bad or killing people because something bad might happen if they live (but you have know idea) would be alright? Because to me, murder is never the solution.

 

And who Hawke kills for less is up to the player. My Hawke never killed anybody who didn't attack him first or asked to be killed because they were waiting a horrible end.

[Johnny Shepard]

For those that wouldn't consider Anders a friend, why would they visit him after his purpose is fulfilled? Once he gets you the maps, you can basically ignore him and leave him to his Darktown clinic shenanigans by his lonesome.

 

 

 

The key word here is if.

Exactly. It's the players choice. I helped him the first time because I trusted him and I had no idea he was planing something like that. Also, my Hawke was in love with him. But how to do the other playthroughs when the player know what he is planing but Hawke doesn't know. Did you guys help him the first time (if you didn't already know what would happen)?

[Marshal Moriarty]

This continued assertion that killing Petrice would have solved things is utterly absurd. Such an action would martyr her, and would be viewed as an absolutely outrageous action, for whcih Hawke would likely be executed. Even if Hawke escaped justice by doing it quietly, her death would be a rallying cry to her supporters. Until she acts openly against Sheamus (which she does out of desperation, due to the Qunari making significant inroads converting the disenfranchised of the city to the Qun), you have no basis for doing anything to her directly. Your simplistic 'just kill her' solution, would lead to disaster (because there would no mitigating circumstances behind her death, and the chantry would be obliged to kill all the Qunari in retaliation, as they would be suspected and blamed, even if you did the deed - her supporters would see to that.) You say its just as simple as murdering a corrupt priest, but without evidence, it will be viewed as the murder of a devout priest who was killed for standing up to Qunari heresy. The city would explode if that happened, before evidence of her crimes had come to light. And in such a charged atmosphere, there would be no room for diplomacy of any kind, because the Qunari would be viewed as being completely to blame for an innocent holy woman's murder - I,e the return of the book of Koslun, and the Qunari's peaceful withdrawl would become impossible.

 

As for Corypheus, how on earth is Hawke supposed to know that Corypheus survived? And even if she did, what could she do about it? Even if you suspected he had possesed the Grey Warden, and decided to summarily execute him on the spot, what's to stop him from jumping to someone else, or another Darkspawn nearby? Is Hawke supposed to just know how this all works? Do *you* claim you understand how this all works? If its a similar process to the Archdemon (i.e possessing someone with taint), then it would be impossible to prevent, as it would require killing every darkspawn, which clearly isn't going to happen. Corypheus is a being of unknowable powers and knowledge. There's no telling what it would take to kill him for good. What choice did Hawke have after they entered the prison? Just stay there forever and die, so he can't escape? What kind of solution is that?! What would stopping someone from coming along and using the blood from her body to unlock the prison anyway? 

 

And just on the subject of Shepard and the whole Alpha Relay thing. Under the circumstances, Shepard does the only thing he/she can. The fault lies with Bioware and their silly railroaded plot. Admiral Hackett makes the incredibly unreasonable demand that Shepard attempt the mission alone (despite the fact that Shepard may not be in any way suitable for such a stealth operation, depending on class). Sending in a lone operative to preserve denability etc is fair enough, but rather obselete when the person you send is the most famous human operative of the current age, and someone who possibly has an acrimonious relationship with the Batarians already. They then have Shepard knocked out, given her just an hour or so to prevent the Reaper's return. So the system was dead anyway - and in case you felt the situation wasn't stacked heavily enough in favour of destroying the relay, they add in that the relay in question will allow the reapers instant access to the whole galaxy.

 

Its an insulting and foolishly written DLC, which forces Shepard to become a mass murderer, and yet its barely ever addressed. The batarians are people too! It was absolutely not okay to murder them, and just say 'Eh, who cares about the batarians...' The (heavily contrived) situation demanded it, but it was still a terrible crime which will have Shepard (if she somehow survives the ending of ME3) looking over her shoulder for the rest of her life, because of the outrage that the batarians feel over the incident. The worst part is that its all in service of setting up a plot thread that will lead into ME3 - which they then dropped completely! And like many other plot threads that were held up as being important (the whole Liara being the Shadow broker thing being another), they just canned it, and did something else instead. Basically it was just 'We're going to put you on trial... except that the Reapers have invaded, so never mind. And hey - pretty much all the Batarians and their whole government is dead before the game even begins, so never mind about it ever again'.

 

Bioware really need to stop doing this kind of thing. Forcing your character to enact momentous acts, and then dropping the whole thing, because they've lost interest. You kill the Shadow broker, and let Liara take his place (which many people were not happy about, and didn't appreciate having to let her do that). And then what does any of that matter in ME3? Not at all - she's lost the ship, her status as Shadow Broker provides zero new intel in the game, and its really only brought up at all at the start. For the rest of the game, its just 2 terminals with some wacky e-mails, and some minor stat boosts. Not exactly the powerhouse of intel and secrets both ancient and modern that you would have imagined. The whole thing was just dropped completely, because Liara didn't focus test well as a cold, distant spy character. So they just changed her back to the socially awkward scientist.

 

The long and short of it is that Bioware are serial offenders in all their games at making your characters and the NPCs make really silly and counter intuitive decisions, because 'it seemed cool at the time'. All we need now is for DA:I to come out, and have the Mage/Templar war that they forced so rudely upon us, ruining the final Act of an otherwise great game for, turn out to be a plot device that is quickly and easily ended almost immediaely. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they did that.

 

The final act of DA2 should have been Hawke sounding out various people of authority in the city, factions etc, gaining their support for a bid to become Viscount and depose Meredith. You could still have been fully aware of the problems that the mages are causing, and they could still have had Orsino turn against you, but its clear that no solution could work with Meredith still in power, and the Templars overstepping their mandate (which even they don't want for the most part). Securing the support of the nobles, merchants, Cullen, Bran etc would enable you to make a stand against the various hardliners in the city (Orsino, Meredith and eventually Anders too), and knock some sense into the lot of them (with lethal force if necessary, as it would be against most of them). Hawke ending up as Viscount is the logical final step to the story of her rise from rags to riches. But the only way to do that as it stands, is to support Meredith's obviously unjust purge of the mages.

 

Ultmately, DA2 reminds me of KOTOR 2, another classic game undone by a forcibly rushed and chronically underwritten final sequences of events. People have been fiercely unjust in their criticism of DA2, and Bioware appears to be caving to this, trying to distance themselves from it. But I stress that it was for large swathes of its playing time, their best main story. Because finally, *finally* they made a game whicb didn't follow the same formula that all their games follow. You can chart the same progress, the same basic sequences of events, the same story beats in their other games, leading to the accusation that they have basically been making the same game for decades now. DA2 if nothing else, was not gullty of that, and had a completely new structure, with plot threads evolving slowly over the course of the game, sustained relationships with NPCs, and most importantly the feeling that Hawke actually lived in this world and couldn't just blow through town upending everything and everyone, because she had to live in this town and with these people. Hawke felt like she existed as a person in the city, had an everyday life. And that is something that Hero characters like Shepard and Revan etc don't have - they feel isolated from the universe at large, to the point where you don't feel they actually are people living in that universe. They are just these roaming superheroes who can go anywhere, do anything, and never have any actual consequences, because they just seem so far above anyone's laws.

 

I implore Bioware not to abandon DA2's brand of more down to earth storytelling, with characters (and a main character) who is falliable and identifiably still just a guy or gal going through life as best they can. They had it exactly right when they said they wanted the story of DA2 to not just be 'An Ancient Evil Returns - Again!' But that seems to be exactly what DA:I is, and your Inquisitor held up as some kind of chosen one messiah... NO! So its right back to the old formula is it? Power trip fantasy 101. Rules do not apply to you, savior of the galaxy, all bow down! An intro that has leaders wiped out attending a conference, where only you survive... Wait, are we talking about DA:I or ME3...?

 

You're better than this, Bioware. You were really onto something with DA2. The structure of the game's narrative wasn't the problem - that's the bit you got right! The game needed more money and development time, so you could do the final Act properly, and cut out all the recycled environments. And the combat needed to be tighter, getting away from that silly waves system. Going back to the tired old formula of your other games, having blandly infallible main characters, losing great ideas like the personality system where you can tailor cut scenes to more accurately reflect your character... Show some backbone and keep refining and innovating - don't just go into full scale retreat back to the safety of your old games, at the first signs of resistance!

[Ryzaki]

Hawke can kill Javaris "because he bothered me." killing someone who threatened your mother anyway because he might have a evil mage in him is hardly beyond the pale.

[Johnny Shepard]

Petrice tried to get Hawke killed with zero remorse. You could create Hawkes willing to kill with much less provocation than that, but somehow Petrice is immune to their murderous intent.

The key is that:

 

1. Petrice never attacked Hawke and as a default Hawke only kills in defence. You have to chose the aggressive way for him to attack people first. And attacking her might have been problem for Hawke. She wasn't alone in this so is she died someone would know it was Hawke and would have made sure the Chantry knew and that would be the end for Hawke's life in Kirkwall.

2. The most important reason: She was important to the story so Bioware wouldn't let us.

[Ryzaki]

Pshhhhh, nobody hates Shepard for that.

 

Probably because if Shep hadn't done that the Reapers would've killed everyone.

 

Hawke killing Cory properly would've saved lives not gotten more people killed. Hawke would've been better off leaving him imprisoned and letting it eventually break rather than hastening it.

 

Trying to compare the two is being ignorant at best or misleading at worst.

[KaiserShep]

Exactly. It's the players choice. I helped him the first time because I trusted him and I had no idea he was planing something like that. Also, my Hawke was in love with him. But how to do the other playthroughs when the player know what he is planing but Hawke doesn't know. Did you guys help him the first time (if you didn't already know what would happen)?

My rogue and mage F!Hawkes boot him after Dissent, because the option was there and I figured it was most appropriate, given the circumstances. That, and I found his dialogue really awkward and I just didn't like him being in the group in general. I didn't do all that other stuff until I did my aggressive M!Hawke mage who was a total anti-Templar fanatic in the end, but then that was my screw-everyone playthrough.

[Johnny Shepard]

Hawke can kill Javaris "because he bothered me." killing someone who threatened your mother anyway because he might have a evil mage in him is hardly beyond the pale.

Again, can. It's the players choice. You can't claim the choices you make as Hawke as a part of his core character because it's all up to you.

[Ryzaki]

Again, can. It's the players choice. You can't claim the choices you make as Hawke as a part of his core character because it's all up to you.

 

No one said it was his core character. However it can be in Hawkes character to kill people for minor things so claiming Hawke won't kill Peatrice cause she endangered his/her life when they can kill for less is ridiculous. It's not part of Hawke's core character to spare people cause death is bad. It's plot induced stupidity. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Edit: Now if you said that when it was a choice to attack Peatrice I'd agree with you. Except no Hawke's even given the option despite it going against some Hawkes character. That's the problem.

[KaiserShep]

Probably because if Shep hadn't done that the Reapers would've killed everyone.

 

Hawke killing Cory properly would've saved lives not gotten more people killed. Hawke would've been better off leaving him imprisoned and letting it eventually break rather than hastening it.

 

Trying to compare the two is being ignorant at best or misleading at worst.

 

Wait, who did Corypheus kill after the events of Legacy?

[Ryzaki]

Wait, who did Corypheus kill after the events of Legacy?

 

Gotta play DAI for that but I highly doubt he's back to play with butterflies.