354 réponses à ce sujet

[RiptideX1090]

Might should have expected that after the choice was trivialized in ME2 (among many other things). It became obvious while playing that game that imported decisions were going to offer little beyond thematic flavor for a predetermined story.

As for the pointlessness? You'll have to ask the book's writer, who's responsible for both the original choice and the canonization.

 

*shrug*

 

As if there aren't bigger things to worry about. Either way, Anderson and Udina are dead, in the end. The ramifications of certain... other decisions are the ones that make me nervous about the next game.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Might should have expected that after the choice was trivialized in ME2 (among many other things). It became obvious while playing that game that imported decisions were going to offer little beyond thematic flavor for a predetermined story.

As for the pointlessness? You'll have to ask the book's writer, who's responsible for both the original choice and the canonization.

 

The choice was trivialized in ME2? Anderson didn't leave the Council (if you put him on) until after ME2. ME3 and Retribution are where he was outright made into an alliance admiral again.

[dreamgazer]

The choice was trivialized in ME2? Anderson didn't leave the Council (if you put him on) until after ME2. ME3 and Retribution are where he was outright made into an alliance admiral again.

No matter who's there and in what position, ME2's plot does the exact same things. The choice(s) meant nothing.

Except a small amount of consequence for Shepard's readmission into the Spectres, but, again, that doesn't impact the story whatsoever.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

No matter who's there and in what position, ME2's plot does the exact same things. The choice(s) meant nothing.

Except a small amount of consequence for Shepard's readmission into the Spectres, but, again, that doesn't impact the story whatsoever.

 

I don't think it should have done any differently at all to be honest. And in reality, what difference would having Anderson make? He's still getting the short end of the stick by getting constantly shafted by the Council. There's not a lot a single Councilor could do most likely without the consent of at least 2 more Councilors.

[dreamgazer]

I don't think it should have done any differently at all to be honest. And in reality, what difference would having Anderson make? He's still getting the short end of the stick by getting constantly shafted by the Council. There's not a lot a single Councilor could do most likely without the consent of at least 2 more Councilors.

You honestly believe that having familiar council members (whose lives you've saved) and an ex-superior who trusts you as humanity's representative wouldn't give Shepard more political weight? I don't like to glorify paragon choices, but that's some heavily flawed logic, especially when all roads lead to "Ah yes, Reapers" given the events at the end of ME1.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

You honestly believe that having familiar council members (whose lives you've saved) and an ex-superior who trusts you as humanity's representative wouldn't give Shepard more political weight? I don't like to glorify paragon choices, but that's some heavily flawed logic, especially when all roads lead to "Ah yes, Reapers" given the events at the end of ME1.

 

Yes, I do believe that, seeing as said Council members have proven fickle in the past and willing to sell you out when you become a political liability. One ex-superior isn't going to change that. 

 

I don't think you're very keen on the idea of the Council losing interest and enthusiasm for the idea of the Reapers being real, especially when there is no follow-up evidence being presented. And why wouldn't they? The Reapers are good at their job. Maybe, just maybe, they decide the Reapers aren't a spectacular existential threat after-all. Maybe Sovereign really was a massive Geth construct. It's easier to say that he was. 

 

I think you're vastly overestimating the resolve of the Council and the alliance. Which is why their change of heart in ME2 isn't very surprising to me. Two years, no new evidence? Would you still believe the story if you had nothing more than second and third hand evidence to the true nature of Sovereign?

[dreamgazer]

Yes, I do believe that, seeing as said Council members have proven fickle in the past and willing to sell you out when you become a political liability. One ex-superior isn't going to change that.

Backtracking on saving their lives and acknowledging the credibility of the Reaper threat is far more than "fickle".
 

I don't think you're very keen on the idea of the Council losing interest and enthusiasm for the idea of the Reapers being real, especially when there is no follow-up evidence being presented.

No, I'm not, because there are several other ways that evidence could verify the threat, from a non-Liara asari melding with Shepard's mind to their suit's recording devices. Or will all those things get ignored as nothing more than Saren's persuasiveness?
 

And why wouldn't they? The Reapers are good at their job. Maybe, just maybe, they decide the Reapers aren't a spectacular existential threat after-all. Maybe Sovereign really was a massive Geth construct. It's easier to say that he was.

Again, that's a big change of tune from the end of ME1, and a hell of way to shrug off an entirely-foreign mecha-Cthulhu. Any quarian who knows anything about the geth would verify that it isn't of geth design, let alone what safely analyzing the debris itself would yield.
 

I think you're vastly overestimating the resolve of the Council and the alliance. Which is why their change of heart in ME2 isn't very surprising to me. Two years, no new evidence? Would you still believe the story if you had nothing more than second and third hand evidence to the true nature of Sovereign?

And I think you're vastly underestimating the impact of the invasion on the Citadel, as well as all the evidence conveniently swept under the rug. I would treat it as a credible threat, yes, especially after people have thoroughly processed the evidence, because they clearly didn't ... all because the writers wanted to railroad the galaxy into an unprepared state against the Reapers.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Backtracking on saving their lives and acknowledging the credibility of the Reaper threat is far more than "fickle".
 

No, I'm not, because there are several other ways that evidence could verify the threat, from a non-Liara asari melding with Shepard's mind to their suit's recording devices. Or will all those things get ignored as nothing more than Saren's persuasiveness?
 

Again, that's a big change of tune from the end of ME1, and a hell of way to shrug off an entirely-foreign mecha-Cthulhu. Any quarian who knows anything about the geth would verify that it isn't of geth design, let alone what safely analyzing the debris itself would yield.
 

And I think you're vastly underestimating the impact of the invasion on the Citadel, as well as all the evidence conveniently swept under the rug. I would treat it as a credible threat, yes, especially after people have thoroughly processed the evidence, because they clearly didn't ... all because the writers wanted to railroad the galaxy into an unprepared state against the Reapers.

 

Once more, I think you're placing undue importance on the concept of a life-debt. Shepard saving the Council's lives does not make him correct about the Reapers. It just means that he saved their lives. To them, he saved them from the Geth attack. The truth is what we know it to be, but without any more evidence to the contrary, the Council doesn't know that. All they have is what they see and analyze. And if you don't know what to look for, or you know what you don't want to look for, it becomes easier to dismiss specific theories, which the Council has done.

 

I don't believe for a second that some kind of mind-meld would be taken as an acceptable form of evidence. By that notion, the Council was wrong to not take Shepard at his word when he received the vision from the beacon in the first place. As for suit recording devices, for starters, there's no substance to the idea that they even have a recorder in their suits. Plus, there is the knowledge that it could have been tampered with. And then, what exactly would such suit recorders have to record? What kind of evidence would be acceptable? 

 

It's a change of tune because the galaxy has changed in 2 years. People don't want to hear that there's a massive incoming storm of mecha-cthulu's coming for them. And it's not hard to say that the only person really championing the idea behind the Reapers has died, so is neither around any longer to champion the cause, or able to bring any more evidence forward pointing to their existence? Exactly what good would the Quarians do? They haven't seen or faced Geth in 300 years. That's a long-time for change. They were desperate enough as it was for any kind of information at all about the Geth. 300 years with the Geth left to their own devices and plans, that one might wonder just what they could come up with if they tried. They are a very alien entity among the galaxy. To play devil's advocate, it really isn't all that difficult to see the Geth creating something completely unrecognizable to the galaxy at large.

 

I don't think I'm underestimating the impact of the Citadel invasion at all: ME2 clearly proves that for me. Massive precautions and forays against the Geth have taken place. The impact is there. The target? The Geth. Not the Reapers. The impact is that the Geth had begun a massive attack/crusade against the Council using a massive, very-highly advanced construct to terrorize the Citadel and manipulate it for some unknown purpose. The galaxy is treating the threat as a credible one... just not the real threat. And why should they? Beyond a massive dreadnought that was thoroughly processed as a work of very-advanced engineering capabilities far beyond the scale of anything the organic races of the galaxy have achieved, but still something so alien as to be associated with the Geth? People make connections and assume that it was a Geth construct. The evidence wasn't swept away so much as it was misinterpreted. That's my argument. And beyond the proclamations from a questionably stable special agent with a history for trauma and violence, it's not hard to dismiss the 'Reaper' theory as the ravings of a madman.

[KaiserShep]

Quarian engineer: This is clearly not geth technology.

 

Everyone else: Yes it is.

 

Quarian engineer:

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Quarian engineer: This is clearly not geth technology.

 

Everyone else: Yes it is.

 

Quarian engineer:

 

Honestly, I'd say it goes more along the lines of:

 

"This isn't recognizable Geth technology, but 300 years of complete isolation from the rest of the galaxy, who knows what they've been doing? If the Geth have more of these, they are a grave threat."

 

I suspect that the Quarian would recognize that it isn't Geth technology, as far as known Geth technology goes. However, I don't think that would immediately point to the conclusion that it is Reaper technology.

[KaiserShep]

And yet with EDI's conveniently super advanced scanning, it can be determined that the reapers are also partially organic.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

And yet with EDI's conveniently super advanced scanning, it can be determined that the reapers are also partially organic.

 

Yet, EDI didn't yet exist, and even when she was created, she was under the auspices of Cerberus, an organization (possibly the only organization) that recognized the Reapers for what they were. 

[dreamgazer]

Once more, I think you're placing undue importance on the concept of a life-debt. Shepard saving the Council's lives does not make him correct about the Reapers. It just means that he saved their lives. To them, he saved them from the Geth attack. The truth is what we know it to be, but without any more evidence to the contrary, the Council doesn't know that. All they have is what they see and analyze. And if you don't know what to look for, or you know what you don't want to look for, it becomes easier to dismiss specific theories, which the Council has done.

I don't agree with this, especially when preserving the current council at an integral part of the galaxy's---and humanity's---narrative constitutes more than a "life-debt".

I don't believe for a second that some kind of mind-meld would be taken as an acceptable form of evidence. By that notion, the Council was wrong to not take Shepard at his word when he received the vision from the beacon in the first place. As for suit recording devices, for starters, there's no substance to the idea that they even have a recorder in their suits. Plus, there is the knowledge that it could have been tampered with. And then, what exactly would such suit recorders have to record? What kind of evidence would be acceptable?

Why wouldn't the asari's mind-meld be permissible? It's a direct, unfiltered, acknowledged form of mental communication in the galactic community. You'll have to elaborate further on that. And yeah, they really should have mind-melded with Shepard after Eden Prime, but then we wouldn't have had all those recruitment scenarios and Tali's unassailable audio device. It would've been a shortcut through a lot of filler plotting.

Ashley actually mentions the recording devices in dialogue, and the recording at the beginning of ME1 is a helmet recording. And if they're going to admit a geth's recording device as "irrefutable evidence" from one of its creators, they're easily going to admit both of those things. The conversations with Saren, Sovereign, and especially Vigil should suffice.
 

It's a change of tune because the galaxy has changed in 2 years. People don't want to hear that there's a massive incoming storm of mecha-cthulu's coming for them. And it's not hard to say that the only person really championing the idea behind the Reapers has died, so is neither around any longer to champion the cause, or able to bring any more evidence forward pointing to their existence?

Assuming, of course, that they properly culled evidence while Shepard was still alive ... which they clearly didn't. And no, of course the galaxy's doesn't want to hear that, but people never want to hear about an impending threat that they need to prepare for. I don't agree with that being a credible excuse.

And Shepard wasn't the only one. But yes, Shepard's forced death conveniently took the biggest voice against the Reapers out of the equation.
 

Exactly what good would the Quarians do? They haven't seen or faced Geth in 300 years. That's a long-time for change. They were desperate enough as it was for any kind of information at all about the Geth. 300 years with the Geth left to their own devices and plans, that one might wonder just what they could come up with if they tried. They are a very alien entity among the galaxy. To play devil's advocate, it really isn't all that difficult to see the Geth creating something completely unrecognizable to the galaxy at large.

Their design and tactics haven't changed enough to be worth mentioning, yet the geth are going to spend their time putting their eggs in one basket with an incredibly dissimilar dreadnought? And that's entirely avoiding looking into the date and composition of the materials that comprised Sovereign.
 

The evidence wasn't swept away so much as it was misinterpreted.

Yeah, I don't agree. Well, I agree that there was misinterpretation, but there was also quite a bit of evidence and opportunities at evidence conveniently ignored by the writing to pigeonhole the situation into ... well, the one you support.

[dreamgazer]

Honestly, I'd say it goes more along the lines of:
 
"This isn't recognizable Geth technology, but 300 years of complete isolation from the rest of the galaxy, who knows what they've been doing? If the Geth have more of these, they are a grave threat."
 
I suspect that the Quarian would recognize that it isn't Geth technology, as far as known Geth technology goes. However, I don't think that would immediately point to the conclusion that it is Reaper technology.

Dismissing it from being known geth technology would be a significant revelation, considering the way the council has been controlling the narrative.

[DeinonSlayer]

Gotta wonder if the team that inspected the various bits of Sovereign (not to mention the salvage crew assigned to sweep up the pieces) went all "Tekeli-li!" on everyone. The Leviathan of Dis was about a billion years deader and still managed to mindf*** the batarians who found it.

[Steelcan]

Gotta wonder if the team that inspected the various bits of Sovereign (not to mention the salvage crew assigned to sweep up the pieces) went all "Tekeli-li!" on everyone. The Leviathan of Dis was about a billion years deader and still managed to mindf*** the batarians who found it.

those husks on the Collecotr Ship had to come from somewhere I suppose

[dreamgazer]

Gotta wonder if the team that inspected the various bits of Sovereign (not to mention the salvage crew assigned to sweep up the pieces) went all "Tekeli-li!" on everyone. The Leviathan of Dis was about a billion years deader and still managed to mindf*** the batarians who found it.

They'd have to take precautions (especially with their collected data), but yeah, that'd be a concern.

[Steelcan]

They'd have to take precautions (especially with their collected data), but yeah, that'd be a concern.

How would they know what precautions to take?

 

And the unauthorized salvage mentioned by Anderson likely was not in any way supervised or done in accordance with any protocol

[Ravensword]

How would they know what precautions to take?

 

And the unauthorized salvage mentioned by Anderson likely was not in any way supervised or done in accordance with any protocol

Couldn't they use drones when studying the dead Reapers?

[Steelcan]

Couldn't they use drones when studying the dead Reapers?

While studying perhaps, mechs to do the actual clean up, and so on, but how would they know to do that?

[DeinonSlayer]

Couldn't they use drones when studying the dead Reapers?

Cerberus knew what they were up against, and even they didn't think to pursue that (mostly to justify another shoot-'em-up level, but still).

[Steelcan]

Cerberus knew what they were up against, and even they didn't think to pursue that (mostly to justify another shoot-'em-up level, but still).

Cerberus isn't big on things like "a safe work environment" or "projects with a body count of less than 30"

[dreamgazer]

How would they know what precautions to take?
 
And the unauthorized salvage mentioned by Anderson likely was not in any way supervised or done in accordance with any protocol

Trial and error, with some suspicion about its energy capabilities and effects on Saren and Benezia. And drones, yeah.

The Brysons figured it out.

[DeinonSlayer]

Cerberus isn't big on things like "a safe work environment" or "projects with a body count of less than 30"

I think I just heard Doc's lip quirking.