28 réponses à ce sujet

[Riven326]

Hello everyone. I'm currently doing a play-through of Dragon Age: Origins in preparation for Dragon Age: Inquisition and I would just like to share my thoughts and get some feedback on on this topic. Before I forget, yes, I have played and completed Origins and every DLC available for it previously.

 

So, one of the things I didn't really like about this game was how you are almost forced to choose certain dialogue options in order to get your companions to like you. It's almost as if the gifts you're given in the game exist to help you balance the imbalance that occurs should you decide to choose the "wrong" dialogue options which leads to a negative reaction from a party member.

 

Normally this sort of thing isn't a problem for me because I generally play a character that can agree or disagree with others and still get on well enough. This simply isn't the case with one character in particular who seems to get deeply offended if you disagree with her on anything: Morrigan. I want to be friends with the character, but it's like you must agree with her on everything in order to do so. Part of this is, like I said, the game. But another part of it seems to be her personality.

 

She also gets pissed off whenever I help someone. For example, I decided to help a girl in Redcliffe by giving her some extra money to help her get to Denerim. She goes on to say that I'm spending her money. I replied saying it is MY money, not OUR money. Again, she got angry and I lost a certain amount of points because of it.

 

I don't want to cheat and use the gifts to get her to like me. But I also want to be able to role play my character in a realistic way that doesn't involve choosing a certain a dialogue choice just because Morrigan is in the party. Her personal quest is tied to how much she likes you, or maybe I'm wrong about that.

 

How did you deal with the witch?

[metatheurgist]

Nothing wrong with bribing her with gifts. It's a time honoured method of returning to favour with women. You could strategically remove her from the party.

[Icy Magebane]

Just swap her out before you do something that she isn't going to like... I do that when I want to game the system and I don't feel bad about it, although I usually just ignore the party's objections and do whatever the PC needs to do.  The approval system in DA:O is far too rigid for my liking and it can be very difficult to make back significant approval losses.  That's why the gifts exist in the first place... you shouldn't feel guilty about using them.

 

Actually it looks like I didn't add anything that metatheurgist didn't already say, but that's because there are few ways to stay in character and keep high approval with everyone in the party.

 

edit:  One other thing... since you seem to be interested in roleplaying, perhaps you should just accept that Morrigan and this character do not get along.  Maybe you should play as a character she would like if you care that much, although that character would likely be at odds with Alistair, Wynne, and Leliana.  IMO disagreements with the party only add to the rp... keeping everyone happy is just metagaming (not that this is a bad thing, it's simply different from and less restricting than roleplaying).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 It's a flaw of the DA:O game. You have to be a sycophant to be friends with companions or use gift bribes.

[gottaloveme]

RP for my warden is that there is very little to like about Morrigan (especially when she opens her mouth) but there is something vulnerable in her that engages the warden's sympathy. So saying she usually ends up being friendly (even with the dog) and I think how would it be with more time to get past all her crap? And then too, the dog likes her - do you trust your faithful and intelligent Mabari hound?

[TheMadHarridan]

I actually like Morrigan. I don't like everything she does (like giving me disapproval because i want to rescue drowning kittens or something), but I always get along with her. It's probably because, like her, I have a lot of issues resulting from my upbringing, and I understand why she has trouble trusting people.

 

You just have to look past her tough exterior and see that she actually can be a good friend. Her discussion with you when she finally considers you a friend is quite touching. Plus, as gottaloveme said, Dog likes her, and animals are usually good about sensing whether or not someone is evil.

[Hydwn]

I had similar problems with DA2 romances - specifically friendship-romance with Fenris as a mage siding with mages. 

 

The trick is to go to the DA wiki, and look at the approval page.  Then figure out which of those decisions the targeted character would agree with you on, and bring them along for those. Otherwise leave them at home.  In my case since I was playing a good guy, I'd bring Fenris along for anything that involved, say, freeing slaves.  Then I'd agree with him in personal conversations, and so on

 

Here's Morrigan's approval page  DA2 is more forgiving because you "lock in" relationship values, but you can do it with Origins too.

[Riven326]

Just swap her out before you do something that she isn't going to like... I do that when I want to game the system and I don't feel bad about it, although I usually just ignore the party's objections and do whatever the PC needs to do.  The approval system in DA:O is far too rigid for my liking and it can be very difficult to make back significant approval losses.  That's why the gifts exist in the first place... you shouldn't feel guilty about using them.

 

Actually it looks like I didn't add anything that metatheurgist didn't already say, but that's because there are few ways to stay in character and keep high approval with everyone in the party.

 

edit:  One other thing... since you seem to be interested in roleplaying, perhaps you should just accept that Morrigan and this character do not get along.  Maybe you should play as a character she would like if you care that much, although that character would likely be at odds with Alistair, Wynne, and Leliana.  IMO disagreements with the party only add to the rp... keeping everyone happy is just metagaming (not that this is a bad thing, it's simply different from and less restricting than roleplaying).

I suppose I could do that. Although I'm still uncertain about how the personal quest will work if her approval rating is low.

[congokong]

The approval system in DA:O sucks. I much preferred the friendship/rivalry system in DA2. One thing that sucked about DA:O's method was that you're obligated to either agree with companions' views to keep them from leaving/unlocking all their dialogue or shower them with gifts like a neglectful parent. It's stupid.

 

As for Redcliffe, I can sometimes understand Morrigan's reasoning for being evil but in the case with promising to look for the smith's daughter I have no idea why she disapproves; even making a comment about saving kittens from trees. All we're doing is promising to look in the castle when we get in there which we'd be doing anyway.

 

My canon warden was a young woman mage who was "good" for the most part yet she still got Morrigan's friendship. The main thing they agreed on was mage freedom; both being mages and all. Besides that Morrigan was given gifts like jewelry and the Feastday gift Alistair doll. She also has unique dialogue for the golden mirror sold in the Orzammar commons. Give her Flemeth's grimoire, help her kill Flemeth without fussing, and act like a friend afterwards if nothing else.

[congokong]

I had similar problems with DA2 romances - specifically friendship-romance with Fenris as a mage siding with mages. 

 

 

The Fenris/mage Hawke romance is kind of a mess.

 

If you go the friendship path he'll believe you agree with him that mages should be locked away even if you don't. It's hypocritical since Hawke is an apostate not willing to surrender to the Chantry and Fenris is dating a mage; also making no attempts to turn Hawke, Merrill, or Anders in.

 

If you go the rival path then you're like an old married couple who are constantly bickering/snapping at each other. The relationship seems so unhealthy. He also never sways from his anti-mage views regardless of rivalry score and makes insulting remarks about magic even with his mage lover near him.

[Icy Magebane]

I suppose I could do that. Although I'm still uncertain about how the personal quest will work if her approval rating is low.

I'm pretty sure you just need to do Broken Circle and she will ask you to go back and grab the Black Grimoire regardless.  It's a gift, so handing it over will give her some approval points, and you get approval or disapproval during the conversation when she initially asks you to find it... Also, because it is a gift, you could simply give it to her before she asks about it.  I've done that before with Zevran's dalish gloves... the Warden has a dialogue option saying that such a gift seemed appropriate, and then Zev tells you about his mother being Dalish.  The same is probably true with Morrigan.

 

According to the wiki, the quest "Flemeth's Real Grimoire" triggers when her approval "is high enough," but it doesn't specifically state what the number is... at least I'm not seeing it...

 

Again, this seems like a roleplaying issue.  Oftentimes I don't even fight Flemeth... a Templar, for example, might not trust Morrigan with the original Black Grimoire.  A mage who does trust her with the book may be unwilling to risk his life battling an ancient abomination when the fate of Ferelden is at stake.  Bypassing certain quests for the sake of the rp is what gives the game replay value, for me at least... if you are considering playing the game as a character who genuinely does not get along with Morrigan and is unafraid of openly disagreeing with her, then the next step is to ask yourself what that character would do when asked to obtain a potentially dangerous magical tome for a witch who has shown to place little value on the lives of innocents and the weak.  Perhaps facing Flemeth to save Morrigan from possession in the future is worth it, perhaps not.  Perhaps Flemeth's argument is strong enough that you walk away from the fight and never go back to face her.  However you answer that question will add to the character's storyline... so IMO it's worth asking.

[Icy Magebane]

As for Redcliffe, I can sometimes understand Morrigan's reasoning for being evil but in the case with promising to look for the smith's daughter I have no idea why she disapproves; even making a comment about saving kittens from trees. All we're doing is promising to look in the castle when we get in there which we'd be doing anyway.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I just had to say that Morrigan's behavior throughout the Redcliffe mission was a big turn off for me... even a villain should understand the value in making allies.  Saving the town provides the opportunity to get more loot and keep the stores open... saving the smith's daughter is kind of important if you want the guy to make weapons and armor for you.  You know, things you'll need to continue on your quest?  It's like she doesn't understand the value of money (but maybe not, since she grew up in a forest... lol).

 

Also, I find it annoying that she wants you to risk everything to save her life against a being far more dangerous than a pack of zombies, but sees no value in helping a town full of people who can provide services and join your army as soldiers to aid against the Blight.  It's a very short-sighted view to take.

[congokong]

I agree with the rest of your post, but I just had to say that Morrigan's behavior throughout the Redcliffe mission was a big turn off for me... even a villain should understand the value in making allies.  Saving the town provides the opportunity to get more loot and keep the stores open... saving the smith's daughter is kind of important if you want the guy to make weapons and armor for you.  You know, things you'll need to continue on your quest?  It's like she doesn't understand the value of money (but maybe not, since she grew up in a forest... lol).

 

Also, I find it annoying that she wants you to risk everything to save her life against a being far more dangerous than a pack of zombies, but sees no value in helping a town full of people who can provide services and join your army as soldiers to aid against the Blight.  It's a very short-sighted view to take.

 

I think her "reasoning" is that she's just evil. I don't think Bioware made any attempt to display her as anything else yet you'll find plenty of fans who'll say she isn't. Morrigan isn't altruistic at all. She'd only help someone if it would benefit her in some way. What you say about helping Redcliffe being advantageous makes sense but besides being evil Morrigan is also a fool; ironic since she likes to call Alistair one even though I can't recall him ever being really foolish. She's very short-sighted.

 

Ex: She finds slaughtering the elves for a werewolf army fun even though werewolves as allies are far less controllable than the Dalish.

Ex: She suggests slaughtering all the mages because they let themselves be put in the Circle even though they could fight against the Blight. It's also quite evil.

Ex: She suggests just freeing Jowan and Sten simply because they're caged.

Ex: With a female warden she still makes no attempt of getting Alistair to like her despite her end-game involves sleeping with him.

[Hydwn]

The approval system in DA:O sucks. I much preferred the friendship/rivalry system in DA2. One thing that sucked about DA:O's method was that you're obligated to either agree with companions' views to keep them from leaving/unlocking all their dialogue or shower them with gifts like a neglectful parent. It's stupid.

 

Agreed.  DA2's system was less realistic, but more enjoyable from a gaming standpoint.  In DA1, I had to reload after I'd unlocked reaver from destroying the urn of sacred ashes, because it would have meant losing my one and only healer.  In DA2, you can make any pro-templar decisions you want, and if he's enough of a rival and you did his quests Anders will heal you as you cut your way through mages

 

Some characters are crucial for battle, and having to keep them happy constricts roleplay for realism.  The only announcement so far that I've disliked about Inquisition is that it's returning to origins friendship/no-rivalry system, and they can leave the party 

[Icy Magebane]

I think her "reasoning" is that she's just evil. I don't think Bioware made any attempt to display her as anything else yet you'll find plenty of fans who'll say she isn't. Morrigan isn't altruistic at all. She'd only help someone if it would benefit her in some way. What you say about helping Redcliffe being advantageous makes sense but besides being evil Morrigan is also a fool; ironic since she likes to call Alistair one even though I can't recall him ever being really foolish. She's very short-sighted.

 

Yeah, Morrigan has a few flaws, and low intelligence seems to be one of them.  I don't take issue with her philosophy, but she doesn't represent it very well.  Her suggestions always seem to be very short-sighted, yet the writers often portray her as having some kind of cunning plan going on in the background.  They also have her rising to a position of power as the advisor to the empress of Orlais? Huh?  Unless she's using blood magic to directly control Celene's mind, it seems very inconsistent with her character...  I mean, her best advice in the beginning of the game was to ignore the treaties and try to fight Loghain directly.  ROFL... the Hero of River Dane and one of the greatest soldiers of the generation.  And a group of novice adventurers who just barely fought off the bandits blocking the path to Lothering is supposed to hunt him down and take him out.  Yeah, ok. 

 

Even my villainous Wardens tend to ignore what Morrigan says most of the time... she still enjoys it when the Warden is cruel, so it's not a huge hit to her approval rating if you do what you think is best in most cases.

[Hydwn]

the good thing for Morrigan, though, is that she's so selfish that the positive points you get for flattering her and doing her quest massively outweigh any disapproval at moral actions.  You'll get -5 at worst for lacking in pragmatism, and much higher than that on the positive side for doing nice things for her and agreeing with her.

 

Unlike others here, I thought she was mostly consistent.  The one that threw me for a loop was keeping Sten alive.  She wants Zevran dead because he's a potential assassin, but Sten is also introduced as a dangerous killer, and an adherent of a fanatical anti-mage religion.  You'd think she'd want to leave him in the cage.

 

The worst (and most inconsistent) in any of the games is Velanna from Awakening.  No two decisions of hers seem to fit together.  Sometimes she's preaching morality, sometimes pragmatism, but she's always very angry whatever she's saying.

[Hydwn]

If you go the friendship path he'll believe you agree with him that mages should be locked away even if you don't. It's hypocritical since Hawke is an apostate not willing to surrender to the Chantry and Fenris is dating a mage; also making no attempts to turn Hawke, Merrill, or Anders in.

 

If you go the rival path then you're like an old married couple who are constantly bickering/snapping at each other. The relationship seems so unhealthy. He also never sways from his anti-mage views regardless of rivalry score and makes insulting remarks about magic even with his mage lover near him.

 

Very true.  I think the rival romances are meant to look unhealthy.  But yeah - I was hoping on the friendship path with a mage, he'd change.  He never does though, and he sounds very bitter if you join Orsino at the end.  he'll still follow you, though

[Icy Magebane]

@ Hydwn -  When I called Morrigan "inconsistent," I was referring to her lack of intelligence and foresight during dialogues and quests, compared to the games allusion to a master plan that she had going on behind the scenes (Dark Ritual and Witch Hunt are examples of this).  She doesn't understand the basic principles of manipulation and would throw away potential allies without gaining anything in return, yet she rises to the position of advisor to the most powerful ruler in Thedas.  None of that makes any sense unless she was just playing dumb throughout the course of DA:O and just trolled the Warden with illogical plans to see what he or she would do (if that were the case, however, I would find that appealing and perhaps even impressive).

[Hydwn]

I thought that was meant to be a reflection of her character.  She projects confidence and charisma, but a lot of the time it falls apart as an act.  Being friends with her, you discover how inept she is at reading motivations.  She wears a mask of being confident at worldwise, and fools people with it.  But really she's grown up alone in a hut with Flemeth, and all she knows are her mother's views and what she's read in books.

[Icy Magebane]

I thought that was meant to be a reflection of her character.  She projects confidence and charisma, but a lot of the time it falls apart as an act.  Being friends with her, you discover how inept she is at reading motivations.  She wears a mask of being confident at worldwise, and fools people with it.  But really she's grown up alone in a hut with Flemeth, and all she knows are her mother's views and what she's read in books.

I guess I just find it unappealing when people refuse to acknowledge their flaws and even go so far as to dislike my character when he disagrees with plans that are obviously detrimental to the team's success.  *shrugs*  Maybe she's smarter than I give her credit for if she managed to overwrite her entire personality, something that had been developed for around three decades, over the course of a few years and then used that new persona to not only infiltrate the Orlesian court but also rise to one of the highest possible ranks, advisor to the Empress herself.  Keeping in mind, of course, that espionage and deception are ingrained into the heart of every Orlesian noble, and that there are many, many others who would have been seeking this position and who would have had a lifetime of experience in successfully playing the Game.  Yet Morrigan, a character with no such experience and a long history of isolation comes out of nowhere to snatch the proverbial brass ring.  Seems fishy.

[Tonishi]

@ Hydwn -  When I called Morrigan "inconsistent," I was referring to her lack of intelligence and foresight during dialogues and quests, compared to the games allusion to a master plan that she had going on behind the scenes (Dark Ritual and Witch Hunt are examples of this).  She doesn't understand the basic principles of manipulation and would throw away potential allies without gaining anything in return, yet she rises to the position of advisor to the most powerful ruler in Thedas.  None of that makes any sense unless she was just playing dumb throughout the course of DA:O and just trolled the Warden with illogical plans to see what he or she would do (if that were the case, however, I would find that appealing and perhaps even impressive).

 

Or perhaps she tried to weaken Ferelden for an upcoming war after the Blight? Though why she would do it isn't really clear since if she spent most of her life in the Wilds... She probably doesn't have that much information about different nations, only what Flemeth has taught. Perhaps it's just that she has lived with the animals mostly. Survival to the fittest usually is "act quick, think later" in a deep sh*t situation which Blight is pretty much. Also, since she learnt from Flemeth that trusting someone too much isn't wise, she probably doesn't believe in the treaties too much.

 

I thought that was meant to be a reflection of her character.  She projects confidence and charisma, but a lot of the time it falls apart as an act.  Being friends with her, you discover how inept she is at reading motivations.  She wears a mask of being confident at worldwise, and fools people with it.  But really she's grown up alone in a hut with Flemeth, and all she knows are her mother's views and what she's read in books.

 

That's a very good explanation! One cannot learn how to live in the world by only listening to stories and reading books. As she herself stated, she was very much confused about ... Pretty much every "normal" Man behavior. I actually imagined she was burbing a lot at the dinner table, since she said "Like how to act at the dinner..." That would be a hilarious scene. So, it's just probably the fact that she doesn't have experience with the rest of the world (which probably could be Flemeth's plan: Let your daughters know about the world but not everything so they won't escape. Problem was, the Blight started and Loghain wiped the Wardens) and lack of social experiences with people who actually care or aren't afraid of her.

 

Still, I really enjoyed her character even if she disagreed with most of my decisions... I tried to roleplay a "bad guy" but I just couldn't. Somehow it always makes me feel bad.

[Hydwn]

I guess I just find it unappealing when people refuse to acknowledge their flaws and even go so far as to dislike my character when he disagrees with plans that are obviously detrimental to the team's success.  *shrugs*  Maybe she's smarter than I give her credit for if she managed to overwrite her entire personality, something that had been developed for around three decades, over the course of a few years and then used that new persona to not only infiltrate the Orlesian court but also rise to one of the highest possible ranks, advisor to the Empress herself.  Keeping in mind, of course, that espionage and deception are ingrained into the heart of every Orlesian noble, and that there are many, many others who would have been seeking this position and who would have had a lifetime of experience in successfully playing the Game.  Yet Morrigan, a character with no such experience and a long history of isolation comes out of nowhere to snatch the proverbial brass ring.  Seems fishy.

 

All the characters are flawed.  It's part of what makes them interesting.  Wynne comes closest to perfection, but even she isn't there

 

Morrigan reads people badly, but she knows magic.  in The Masked Empire, we see Celene - and one thing she does very well (most of the time) is read people.  She doesn't need Morrigan for that.  But she doesn't know much about magic, and that comes up too in that book.  She needs an expert on spellcraft, which Morrigan is.

 

The thing I wonder is the relationship between Vivienne and Morrigan.  Both are supposed to be Celene's magic advisors.  Did Morrigan replace Vivienne when Vivienne took over as First Enchanter at Val Royeaux?  Or was Morrigan Celene's "unofficial" advisor, while Vivienne was her respectable one?  Morrigan's status as an apostate means she can say and do the things the respectable Vivienne can't.

 

Y'know, in the end it all comes down to that golden mirror.  When you talk to her, he tells you that she stole a pretty mirror because she wanted something beautiful, and Flemeth smashed it.  She claims she learnt a lesson - that beauty and love have no meaning, only power.  When you get her the replacement mirror, though, it's obvious the little girl she was still craves it.  

 

Then the last thing we see her do (in Witch Hunt) is walk into a mirror.

 

Ten years later, she shows up in Dragon Age 3 in a pretty dress, in Orlais where the path to power is at least partly through love and beauty (you see that in The Masked Empire).  So the question is, is the adult Morrigan using beauty and love to get at power, or is the child Morrigan using power as an adult excuse to get at beauty...?

[gottaloveme]

Morrigan aint evil. She is many things not nice but not strictly evil. That is for the abominations and archdemons and Flemeth and stuff. Blood magic not evil in and of itself - but it is corrupting and powerful and may bite the hand that feeds it if handled without strong willpower. Even then be very, very wary.

[DinkyD]

I too, find Morrigan an enigma and inconsistent.

 

I always end up getting disapproval from Morrigan in that conversation where you discuss survival – because none of my pcs so far have believed that there are no fates worth than death, and survival above all else is all that matters. (I can't imagine playing a character that has no noble feelings along those lines at all) Yet, at the Mage's tower she says that the mages deserve to die – does it not occur to her that they are doing what they must to survive? That had it not been for Flemeth, protecting her when she was weak, she would have suffered the same fate? Worse, iirc, in a banter she says if she was forced to live like that she'd throw herself from the tower. So she does believe that some fates are worse than death.

 

Romancing Alistair ends in negative approval from her unless you agree with her opinion of him. That's not nice Morrigan. On the subject of what a poor manipulator she is, why doesn't she encourage the relationship between Alistair and the pc, considering her end game chances are bolstered by it? She clearly understands the potential, because she has a banter with Alistair in which she is trying to find out what he knows, and what he will do if he has to choose between his love and the ending the blight. When he clearly doesn't realise the significance of the question, and is unable to answer what he would do, she is pleased and replies “I have my answer” - she knows things are playing out well for her yet, other than not telling the pc how the archdemon dies,  she does nothing to actively encourage the situation.

 

 

Morrigan aint evil. She is many things not nice but not strictly evil. That is for the abominations and archdemons and Flemeth and stuff. Blood magic not evil in and of itself - but it is corrupting and powerful and may bite the hand that feeds it if handled without strong willpower. Even then be very, very wary.

 

Not sure about blood magic: does blood magic not feed off life itself? Draining someone's Life to power magic is morally suspect in and of itself, irrespective of what might arise from it.(Unless you only use it on yourself of course)