25 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

For melee attacks or abilities? The melee FF was patched out of DA2.

[In Exile]

Was it? I thought it was made so that they only did glancing blows. It's been a while.

I mean for both basic attack and talents.

I believe the original default was glancing only but because of the HP/damage assymetry it worked out to a something pretty harmful.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It was patched out of DA2 for the default attacks, but left in for melee talents (like scythe).

I think that was a terrible decision; I loved the melee friendly fire, and I used mods to put it back.

I hope the original DA2 friendly fire design returns.

[Icy Magebane]

Melee friendly fire only makes sense if the damage for enemies and allies is properly balanced.  It doesn't work when one of my warriors can kill me with an attack that only takes a fraction of a normal bandit's health...

 

Actually, that goes for all friendly fire IMO.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Melee friendly fire only makes sense if the damage for enemies and allies is properly balanced.  It doesn't work when one of my warriors can kill me with an attack that only takes a fraction of a normal bandit's health...

 

Actually, that goes for all friendly fire IMO.

Not to mention if one side experiences friendly fire effects the other should too.

[Sidney]

Not to mention if one side experiences friendly fire effects the other should too.

 

 

Well and given the mob nature of the enemy they'd basically kill themselves off if this happened. 6 or 7 Hurlocks all doing some sort of smash attack would wipe themselves out.

 

Frankly a lot of the issue with FF is that the AI on any side is incompetent to deal with it effectively -- all the moreso if you run your allies off scripts and don't micromanage them. I effectively left all AoE spells at home in DAO because my allies couldn't be trusted to use them.

[Neon Rising Winter]

It's not impossible. In NWN2 I ran a mod called TonyK's AI that allowed your companions use area of effect spells fairly intelligently. It's just a matter of actually getting that kind of advanced AI into the game.

 

In this case you would want specifically for the other hurlocks to give broad clearance to the hulking alpha with his two ton hammer, and attack targets outside of his range of attack, ideally. And the emissaries would use their area spells in locations that don't contain other hurlocks, or spells that only affect enemy targets. And some enemies wouldn't have any qualms about steamrolling their own allies, if they happen to get underfoot.

 

And it opens up tactical options - if I encourage this large, smash happy boss back into its own ranks it either causes massive damage to its own side or is forced to modify its behaviour. To a small extent you could do that in DA2, ogres charging could be quite unfriendly to their own side - I liked playing the hurlock bowling game.

[Sidney]

And it opens up tactical options - if I encourage this large, smash happy boss back into its own ranks it either causes massive damage to its own side or is forced to modify its behaviour. To a small extent you could do that in DA2, ogres charging could be quite unfriendly to their own side - I liked playing the hurlock bowling game.

 

 

Again, mobs aren't smart and they are mobs. If they have an AoE and you neuter that with FF because lets face it the mobs can't do proper spacing then you take away their best effect. Allied FF is problematic enough for those of us who aren't obsessive micromanagers. Enemy FF is a whole other threshold to deal with that.

[Magdalena11]

I'm really hoping FF will be an option on more than hard and nightmare.  I missed the challenge of keeping NPC allies alive in DA2 and play DA2 on nightmare just to get the FF and the tactical challenges.  

[yullyuk]

i know that FF will be off on easier modes, as for higher modes, i imagine it will be in there for the tactical value

[Sidney]

I'm really hoping FF will be an option on more than hard and nightmare.  I missed the challenge of keeping NPC allies alive in DA2 and play DA2 on nightmare just to get the FF and the tactical challenges.  

 

 

I want the opposite, I want it off at higher difficulty levels unless the AI gets a lot smarter.

[Lanavis]

I don't always mind FF, but I do hope we have the choice to toggle it on/off regardless of which difficulty setting you are on.

I love playing in nightmare, but sometimes FF + nightmare + tough opponents/mob have proved too difficult for me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't always mind FF, but I do hope we have the choice to toggle it on/off regardless of which difficulty setting you are on.

That is what we've been told we'll get.

If FB3 is as unmoddable as rumoured, it's even more important that these sorts of options exist. I used a mod to enable FF at lower difficulties in DA2.

[Dabrikishaw]

Yuck, I don't like the idea of FF for basic attacks. Glad that got patched out.

[Sidney]

That is what we've been told we'll get.

If FB3 is as unmoddable as rumoured, it's even more important that these sorts of options exist. I used a mod to enable FF at lower difficulties in DA2.

 

 

I though it was on at higher levels and off at lower levels? It was "part" of the difficulty setting just like health regen. I hope you are right and it is configurable.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I though it was on at higher levels and off at lower levels?

That's what it was in both DAO and DA2.  But we were told, some time ago, that we'd get to turn it on or off at any difficultly level.

 

And that's important.  Because I insist on FF, but I cannot stand the arbitrary and lore-breaking mechanics that are typical to Nightmare.  DAO worked because Hard was a fairly even setting, and it had full FF damage, but I needed to mod DA2 to make it playable.

[rocsage]

while still not quite at DAO levels, health ratio between enemies and allies is more reasonable than that of DA2.

While I truly do loath DA2 friendly fire mechanism under nightmare difficulty, I do understand and appreciate that its intent is to force flawless game play and discourage aoe spamming, not create symmetry.

[rocsage]

That's what it was in both DAO and DA2.  But we were told, some time ago, that we'd get to turn it on or off at any difficultly level.

 

And that's important.  Because I insist on FF, but I cannot stand the arbitrary and lore-breaking mechanics that are typical to Nightmare.  DAO worked because Hard was a fairly even setting, and it had full FF damage, but I needed to mod DA2 to make it playable.

lore-breaking mechanics exclusive to nightmare? which ones?

[Icy Magebane]

while still not quite at DAO levels, health ratio between enemies and allies is more reasonable than that of DA2.

While I truly do loath DA2 friendly fire mechanism under nightmare difficulty, I do understand and appreciate that its intent is to force flawless game play and discourage aoe spamming, not create symmetry.

In DA:O, you did normal damage to your team, so launching a fireball at Alistair while he was surrounded by darkspawn but not under a force field (for whatever reason) was a calculated risk.  With the DA2 system, the Fireball spell was so dangerous that it was better to just never learn it and stick with Chain Lightning.  Fenris might as well have been on the enemy side with the amount of damage he could do to the party.  These types of restrictions increase the difficulty in an unrealistic or even "cheap" way.  Unbalanced FF rules basically restrict you to a few viable builds and party compositions, and/or keep you locked into micromanagement for every second... that just doesn't appeal to me, I guess.  There have to be better ways to make Nightmare challenging.

 

I can overlook the enemy not having to deal with FF if the AI is just too stupid to figure it out, but I still would prefer symmetry...  if the damage numbers are close, as you say, but not perfect, I might be willing to work with that, even if it's not ideal.

[Magdalena11]

lore-breaking mechanics exclusive to nightmare? which ones?

 

 

In DA:O, you did normal damage to your team, so launching a fireball at Alistair while he was surrounded by darkspawn but not under a force field (for whatever reason) was a calculated risk.  With the DA2 system, the Fireball spell was so dangerous that it was better to just never learn it and stick with Chain Lightning.  Fenris might as well have been on the enemy side with the amount of damage he could do to the party.  These types of restrictions increase the difficulty in an unrealistic or even "cheap" way.  Unbalanced FF rules basically restrict you to a few viable builds and party compositions, and/or keep you locked into micromanagement for every second... that just doesn't appeal to me, I guess.  There have to be better ways to make Nightmare challenging.

 

I can overlook the enemy not having to deal with FF if the AI is just too stupid to figure it out, but I still would prefer symmetry...  if the damage numbers are close, as you say, but not perfect, I might be willing to work with that, even if it's not ideal.

In addition to the exaggerated damage FF did to companions in DA2 (and still none to bystanders) Icy Magebane mentioned, there's no reason I can think of that one group of Kirkwall baddies would be immune to fire and vulnerable to ice, while another would be the reverse.  I think they were the Raider-type and Street thug-type, but I'd have to check the detailed immunity charts I have for each group to be sure.  I can understand qunari being immune to fire and lightning, since those are the elements their saarabas use, but Dog Lords and Raiders on the Cliffs don't have spellcasters (except Fell Orden).  Most of the immunities were made up just to make nightmare more challenging.  The fact that I need to have a notebook with charts so I know which staff, weapons, and spells to use really says it all.

 

I'm not a combat nut - I have to micromanage in DA2 just to keep everyone alive, pausing and positioning and giving orders with each round.  Fenris did a total party wipe in the second combat of Denarius' manor first time I played nightmare, and I take 100 or more hours to play through, pausing while I look stuff up or position people.  I don't care for that type of fight really (imagine if every fight was like Corypheus ), but it's better than walking into every fight knowing that the bad guys are going to go down like bowling pins and Hawke & Co. are going to walk unscathed.  For me, at least, why have combat at all if that's going to be the case?

 

If enemy AI is better and there's no scaling or mods, I'm thrilled if FF can be turned on in normal mode.  I think that sounds like a good fit for me and I can't wait to try it.  I hope the folks who want to play without it will also find a fit that works for them.  

[Dubozz]

Yes, Friedly Fire plz.