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[Geoff Pinkerton]

IMO this statement from Sovereign in Mass Effect 1 was all the explanation I needed for the Reaper's and their cycles.

 

I think Bioware made a massive mistake by trying to give the Reapers a noble motive. Although the abandoned Dark Energy  ending is more narratively and thematically coherent than ME3's ultimate ending, it still tries to make the Reapers into the good guys.

 

This doesn't work because of how the Reapers were presented to us before the end of ME3. They were hardly the indifferent and impersonal agents that the Catalyst portrays them as. They were inscrutable, malevolent and arrogant while their methodology was downright horrific. Sovereign was a perfect example of this mindset. Harbinger wasn't quite in the same league but still exemplified the same evil. Making them merely misguided (or should that be misprogrammed) robs the Reaper's of all their power and mystique.

 

The existential conflict between organic and synthetic life is an important theme in the series but this does not justify it's centrality in the final ten minutes of the trilogy. IMO the central theme of the series was the conflict between free will and determinism, all other themes and subplots including the aforementioned organic/synthetic conflict being manifestations of this larger theme.

 

Far better if the Leviathans had made themselves into the first Reapers in a bid to secure immortality for themselves and their empire. Harvesting other races prevents any other species surpassing them and pre-empts existential threats. By archiving the very civilisations they consume they also gift those races a perverse form of immortality. Given the relatively short lifespans of most species not to mention their proclivity for acts of self destruction (as demonstrated many times in the plot) it isn't surprising that the Reaper's view themselves as our 'salvation through destruction'.

 

There was no need for an explanation for the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. There was no need for Drew's Dark Energy plot either. IMO we got all we needed to know in that very first conversation with Sovereign.        

[AlanC9]

Thing is, Sovereign's motives didn't make any sense. I suppose you're saying that it's OK for Sovereign to not make any sense, but it would have really bugged me to just leave it there.

I'm also not at all sure that the Reapers really are the good guys. Sure, they think they're the good guys, but everybody thinks that. Sovereign thought he was the good guy in ME1, didn't he? There's no change there that I can see.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

If I could have had the Reapers have an ideal motivation, it would have been an assimilation plot.

 

Basically like the Cybermen or the Borg. That's really what they are already, they just have a precept of organic vs. synthetic.

[Iakus]

Thing is, Sovereign's motives didn't make any sense. I suppose you're saying that it's OK for Sovereign to not make any sense, but it would have really bugged me to just leave it there.

I'm also not at all sure that the Reapers really are the good guys. Sure, they think they're the good guys, but everybody thinks that. Sovereign thought he was the good guy in ME1, didn't he? There's no change there that I can see.

 

One could pass off Sovereign not making sense as Shepard (and the player) lack crucial information and context.  Maybe there is a reason that makes sense, but right now we're more intersted in escaping the fire than pondering why it burns.  "In the end, what does it matter?  Your survival depends on stopping the reapers, not in understanding them"

 

Later on, though, we learn that, yes, the motive really is as stupid as all that.  More information and context did not, in fact, help.

[Geoff Pinkerton]

The quote from Sovereign pretty much sums up their motivation. I don't think they needed much more explanation than that. They impose order on chaos.

By harvesting advanced civilisations they keep the competition at bay and ensure that nothing catastrophic happens to the galaxy at the same time.

 

The Assimilation process preserves the accumulated knowledge of those civilisations which are of use to the Reapers but from their perspective could be seen as a form of salvation.

 

Ultimately they see themselves as analogous to deities like the Leviathans before them. They have created the cycles to maintain this status. They are the pinnacle of evolution because they themselves prevent any other outcome.

 

As stated in the original post I believe the central theme of the series to be free will versus determinism. This theme runs through virtually every other theme and subplot, manifests itself in many of the characters and is even present in the gameplay (the desired free will of the player is in constant conflict with the necessary determinist diktats of the writers for example).

 

The Reapers, as the major antagonists of the story are the ultimate manifestation of determinism. They need be nothing more. They aren't characters in the sense that Shepard and squad or even Saren and the Illusive Man are. They are antagonists, pure and simple.

 

Sovereigns speech summed this idea up brilliantly, by all means add little things to it like Harbinger's rhetoric on salvation thru destruction or the Reaper on Rannoch talking about order and chaos. I just think anything too specific ruins the Reapers.

 

Imposing order on the chaos of organic evolution just seems like the natural thing for an immortal cyborg control freak to do and is all the motivation and explanation required.      

[AlanC9]

One could pass off Sovereign not making sense as Shepard (and the player) lack crucial information and context.  Maybe there is a reason that makes sense, but right now we're more intersted in escaping the fire than pondering why it burns.  "In the end, what does it matter?  Your survival depends on stopping the reapers, not in understanding them"
 

My Shepards would have been OK with this. Wouldn't have worked for me, though.

[Dabrikishaw]

The Reapers THINKING they're the good guys is a whole world different than then BEING  the good guys.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The Reapers THINKING they're the good guys is a whole world different than then BEING  the good guys.

 

Not really. Being the good guys depends on how well your actions pan out compared to the others.

 

For over a billion years, the Reapers were the good guys.

[AlanC9]

By harvesting advanced civilisations they keep the competition at bay and ensure that nothing catastrophic happens to the galaxy at the same time.

 
The latter part of this is more or less what we got, isn't it?

Keeping the competition at bay via the cycles is silly. The way to keep the competition at bay is to keep developing your own civilization rather than sleeping away 99% of the time.

As for the theme..... I've seen an awful lot of posts about how the real theme of ME was X, or Y, or Z., or should have been X, or Y, or Z. Even if we could all agree that X was the correct theme, I'm not sure what that would prove unless Bio had actually intended X.

[AlanC9]

The Reapers THINKING they're the good guys is a whole world different than then BEING the good guys.

I'll agree with this, but only because there's no such thing as actually being "the" good guy.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Not really. Being the good guys depends on how well your actions pan out compared to the others.

 

For over a billion years, the Reapers were the good guys.

 

I don't think the Reapers ever saw themselves as that (pre-ME3). They were merely enforcing their will.

[AlanC9]

I don't think the Reapers ever saw themselves as that (pre-ME3). They were merely enforcing their will.

Harbinger says they are our salvation through destruction. That's not the way I'd talk to ants I was crushing because they intruded on my picnic, or whatever other metaphor you want.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I always thought it would be kinda like they were experimenting on how life develops, as part of an even bigger group or something. 

A variable is changed each cycle, and they observe exactly what change the variable brings about. Then, the Reapers come and wipe the slate clean, ready to run it again. 

[AlanC9]

I always thought it would be kinda like they were experimenting on how life develops, as part of an even bigger group or something. 
A variable is changed each cycle, and they observe exactly what change the variable brings about. Then, the Reapers come and wipe the slate clean, ready to run it again.

This isn't really consistent with exterminating the experimental subject. It'd work with a little retconning, though.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Harbinger says they are our salvation through destruction. That's not the way I'd talk to ants I was crushing because they intruded on my picnic, or whatever other metaphor you want.

 

I guess I should have said pre-ME2. I tend to not think of Harbinger's dialogue unless I'm thinking something comical.

[ZipZap2000]

It's not that sovereign didn't make sense he was deliberately vague. The assumption on his part is that organics will always oppose the idea so there's no point in arguing over it or explaining it because they never seem to understand. It left the door open for it to be explained later, which makes more sense in a trilogy. Sovereign made perfect sense his purpose was to ensure the harvest continued on schedule, he's under no obligation to have a cup of coffee with you and explain why you're about to die. 

 

When you look at the big picture sovereign makes perfect sense especially when you take Vigil and Harbingers comments into account. The Citadel is used to help civilizations rise and advance to be harvested at their apex, the OPs version of events fits nicely within that. Once you defeat the collectors and Harbinger is done ranting the overall impression is they are going to kill organics save organics from something ,which I think most people realised fairly quickly (We are your salvation through destruction) it's only when you find the story conflicted with your preconceptions of what you THOUGHT the game was about that neither Harbinger nor sovereign make sense.  

 

Imposing order on the chaos is actually a great explanation, only a machine could bring that kind of logic to a galactic war, it maintains a dark feel to it and since you can't reason with a machine it gives you the necessary feeling of impending doom. You either fight these things to halt their twisted logic of extinction for the purposes of salvation and win, or you don't there's no room for anything else.

[Matthias King]

I agree with the OP, especially on the point of 'free will vs determinism' being the real central theme of the series, rather than 'organics vs synthetics' which never was, nor should have ever been, the real central theme.

 

All further attempts to clarify the Reaper's motivations just made them more of a mess.  Less was definitely more in this case.

 

That's one of the reasons the ending struck such a sour note with so many people, because regardless of all the other disconnects and various plotholes and deviations from lore, the blatant and inexplicable bait and switch at the end that tried to force the idea that 'organics vs synthetics' really was the central theme and that the Reapers were secretly the good guys all along not only made no sense, but was extremely unsatisfying, and deep down, even if only subconsciously, you knew it felt wrong.

[angol fear]

I agree with the OP, especially on the point of 'free will vs determinism' being the real central theme of the series, rather than 'organics vs synthetics' which never was, nor should have ever been, the real central theme.

How "free will vs determinism" is the real central theme? Could you explain? What, in the trilogy, makes you think that?

[AlanC9]

I guess I should have said pre-ME2. I tend to not think of Harbinger's dialogue unless I'm thinking something comical.

Right. Not a Harby fan either.

Anyway, the point is that Bio making the Reapers be something other than merely self-interested isn't new to ME3. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea pre-dates ME2, and the actual reason Sovereign's rationale is so vague is to leave themselves room for the big twist they always intended. To some extent this may be confirmation bias; it was pretty obvious to me when playing ME1 that Sovereign was holding back something, though I wasn't sure if he was maybe covering up his own ignorance about why he was doing what he was doing.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I disagree with the sentiment that the reapers were secretly the good guys. Even according to the writers, there was nothing redeemable about them. People must have Stockholm Syndrome to think they were the good guys. Make people mush and preserve it.... for what? It's their reproduction cycle apparently, but they're machines. I had no trouble blowing them up. I will not let fear compromise who I am.

 

Winning doesn't make one good. It just makes one the victor. The victor gets to write history to make themselves look good.

[AlanC9]

It's not that sovereign didn't make sense he was deliberately vague. The assumption on his part is that organics will always oppose the idea so there's no point in arguing over it or explaining it because they never seem to understand. It left the door open for it to be explained later, which makes more sense in a trilogy. Sovereign made perfect sense his purpose was to ensure the harvest continued on schedule, he's under no obligation to have a cup of coffee with you and explain why you're about to die.

Right. What I meant upthread was that Sovereign doesn't make sense without additional data.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Anyway, the point is that Bio making the Reapers be something other than merely self-interested isn't new to ME3. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea pre-dates ME2, and the actual reason Sovereign's rationale is so vague is to leave themselves room for the big twist they always intended. To some extent this may be confirmation bias; it was pretty obvious to me when playing ME1 that Sovereign was holding back something, though I wasn't sure if he was maybe covering up his own ignorance about why he was doing what he was doing.

 

I figured it was just one of those things where the writers didn't have any idea what the Reapers goals would be so they handwaved it away as being all-so-above us, which I was fine with.

[Matthias King]

Virtually every enemy you face in the series was being controlled by someone or something else.  Even the geth in the first game.  The idea of synthetics vs organics as the central theme is a theory that could be supported largely by the events of the first game, that is, until you consider that the geth were being controlled by the Reapers and Saren, who himself was being controlled by Sovereign, and all their actions were at the behest of the Reapers.  Consider that the geth hadn't been seen beyond the veil in centuries, and the sole reason they ventured out and attacked Eden Prime or anywhere else is that they were being controlled by the Reapers.  Even Saren's Krogan weren't acting of their own free will. 

 

In ME2, the Collectors weren't acting of their own freewill either, they were thralls of the Reapers, twisted into tools for their use. 

 

And in ME3, most of the races of the galaxy got the same treatment and were turned loose as Reaper ground forces under their control. 

 

The idea of free will vs determinism permeates the entire series.  All synthetic vs organic conflicts in the series, aside from the conflict with the Reapers themselves, were manifestations of the freewill vs determinism conflict.

 

The ending, as presented, was based on circular logic, to solve a problem that, through three games, was proven to actually not be a problem.

[Quarian Master Race]

If I could have had the Reapers have an ideal motivation, it would have been an assimilation plot.

 

Basically like the Cybermen or the Borg. That's really what they are already, they just have a precept of organic vs. synthetic.

And like the Borg, a vague origin story and completely alien ideology and goals to keep them interesting, as opposed to claiming to be incomprehensible, yet ultimately being starbrat's science project.

[AlanC9]

And like the Borg, a vague origin story and completely alien ideology and goals to keep them interesting, as opposed to claiming to be incomprehensible, yet ultimately being starbrat's science project.

 

 

Huh? The Borg ideology and goals are hardly vague.