109 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The way my mind works:

"Wow, Star By Star would be like the Red Wedding and Ned's execution all rolled into one long nightmare, coooool."

"Oooh, I wanna see the fall of Coruscant now!"

"...OMG FORGET THAT I NEED TRAITOR"

"Wait, what about Stover's other books?"

"CAINE"

"I NEED CAINE TV SHOWS"

Look what you've done. You monster.

I really don't know much about this "Caine" you speak of. 

Also, 

Spoiler

Elegos in a box, if you know what I mean.

I wonder how that would be received by fans. That part always stuck out to me, for some reason. 

[Aimi]

I really don't know much about this "Caine" you speak of.

The main character of a series of SF/F books written by the guy who wrote Traitor, Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith, and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Also, the forerunner of the ubiquitous modern fantasy antihero; Caine was one of the first and best.

Also, 

Spoiler

Elegos in a box, if you know what I mean.

I wonder how that would be received by fans. That part always stuck out to me, for some reason.

Spoiler

That was a worse moment than Chewbacca's death, because of who Elegos was and what he was trying to do. I mean, it was a little bit heavy-handed - THESE VONG ARE THE WORST THINGS - but it worked. Dark Tide was overall a quality set of books.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The main character of a series of SF/F books written by the guy who wrote Traitor, Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith, and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Also, the forerunner of the ubiquitous modern fantasy antihero; Caine was one of the first and best.

Spoiler

That was a worse moment than Chewbacca's death, because of who Elegos was and what he was trying to do. I mean, it was a little bit heavy-handed - THESE VONG ARE THE WORST THINGS - but it worked. Dark Tide was overall a quality set of books.

Traitor is great, Shatterpoint is good, but Shadows of Mindor was subpar, in my mind. Haven't read much of the RotS novelization, for some reason I thought Luceno wrote it. (Not that that made me not read it.) Just looked up Caine, looks interesting. Probably don't have any time to read it though.

Spoiler

Yeah, damn. The noble, pacifist Caamasi comes to you, to learn about you and look for common ground that can start a process for peace. You torture him, interrogate him, and make something of a friendship with him.

Then you tear all the flesh off his bones and send him to his friend as a message. Real nice, dude.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

EU? Never read it! It may be uncanonized!

[mybudgee]

Plus, nude Mara Jade scenes! 0_o

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The way my mind works:

"Wow, Star By Star would be like the Red Wedding and Ned's execution all rolled into one long nightmare, coooool."

"Oooh, I wanna see the fall of Coruscant now!"

"...OMG FORGET THAT I NEED TRAITOR"

"Wait, what about Stover's other books?"

"CAINE"

"I NEED CAINE TV SHOWS"

Look what you've done. You monster.

 

Eh, the NJO did have some weaker books. Vector Prime was pretty weak, as was the penultimate novel ('The Final Prophecy' if I remember right). I never liked Tahiri, though I found her more compelling in the Legacy of the Force books when Caedus manipulated her into becoming his apprentice. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

EU? Never read it! It may be uncanonized!

 

Disagree.

 

IMO, you aren't a Star Wars fan if you don't have at least a broad understanding of the the EU. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Traitor is great, Shatterpoint is good, but Shadows of Mindor was subpar, in my mind. Haven't read much of the RotS novelization, for some reason I thought Luceno wrote it. (Not that that made me not read it.) Just looked up Caine, looks interesting. Probably don't have any time to read it though.

Spoiler

Yeah, damn. The noble, pacifist Caamasi comes to you, to learn about you and look for common ground that can start a process for peace. You torture him, interrogate him, and make something of a friendship with him.

Then you tear all the flesh off his bones and send him to his friend as a message. Real nice, dude.

 

I liked Shadows of Mindor. Seeing Luke come to terms with his place in the Rebellion and as a Jedi was interesting, where he finally decides that the military isn't for him anymore. 

 

The RotS novelization is probably the singular best novelization of a film I've ever read. The book was absolutely incredible... and Lucas didn't like it because it was too grey and apparently didn't follow his view of the Force. Which makes it even better.

 

Eh, the Caamasi are too pacifistic for their own good. They don't realize when things aren't going to end well (or they do, but don't react to it out of some sense of holding the moral high ground). Problem is, that doesn't work at all on the Vong.

[Vroom Vroom]

I liked Shadows of Mindor. Seeing Luke come to terms with his place in the Rebellion and as a Jedi was interesting, where he finally decides that the military isn't for him anymore. 

 

The RotS novelization is probably the singular best novelization of a film I've ever read. The book was absolutely incredible... and Lucas didn't like it because it was too grey and apparently didn't follow his view of the Force. Which makes it even better.

 

Eh, the Caamasi are too pacifistic for their own good. They don't realize when things aren't going to end well (or they do, but don't react to it out of some sense of holding the moral high ground). Problem is, that doesn't work at all on the Vong.

Darth Plagueis was hands down my favorite Star Wars novel, I loved the coverage that the Sith got, it also made The Phantom Menace more passable to me.

Spoiler

Just knowing that Darth Plagueis was there on Tatooine watching Qui-Gon Jinn explain the Force to Anakin gave me chills. I especially liked it when Plagueis got a vision of Darth Vader while watching Anakin.

. 

 

Labyrinth of Evil was also amazing, I wish that General Grievous was more like how he was characterized in that novel on film and The Clone Wars show.  

Modifié par Vroom Vroom, 17 août 2014 - 10:31 .

[addiction21]

Given how the Marvel Brand has been handled I am not worried. If you are of the mind that explicit violence, sex, blood, gore, and nudity are inherently more "mature" then I am sorry.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Given how the Marvel Brand has been handled I am not worried. If you are of the mind that explicit violence, sex, blood, gore, and nudity are inherently more "mature" then I am sorry.

 

That's never been a theme for Star Wars, and its basically insulting language like this that worries me since Disney shovels the same. Given Marvel's track record for Star Wars, and Disney's apparent belief that they have been entitled to own it and make stories for it and dismiss anything not centered on Luke, Han, and Leia, then yes, I am very worried about it.

 

Dark Horse was the home of Star Wars comics for the last 20 years, and they produced some of the greatest works and moments from it in the history of the EU. Given Disney's simplified approach to how they plan to tackle the story, I'm worried that it won't have the same kind of depth and resonance as that of the previous canon.

[Tremble333]

In a word no. We all know that Disney cancelled the Clone Wars cartoon, and squashed the development of Star Wars 1313. Both a beloved show and a highly anticipated game. Now consider SWTOR for example. Since day 1 the Devs have said that they would include same sex romances in the game, now that Disney is calling the shots? Never gonna happen. However we may possibly get to romance a sentient car, as long as it's Herbie the Love Bug instead of Lightning McQueen I am all content.

[addiction21]

That's never been a theme for Star Wars, and its basically insulting language like this that worries me since Disney shovels the same. Given Marvel's track record for Star Wars, and Disney's apparent belief that they have been entitled to own it and make stories for it and dismiss anything not centered on Luke, Han, and Leia, then yes, I am very worried about it.

 

Dark Horse was the home of Star Wars comics for the last 20 years, and they produced some of the greatest works and moments from it in the history of the EU. Given Disney's simplified approach to how they plan to tackle the story, I'm worried that it won't have the same kind of depth and resonance as that of the previous canon.

 

"apparent belief" are you talking about before when they did nothing related or after they own the IP?

 

First the entire EU is a product. Lucas let people use Star Wars because he got paid either way and to pretend the majority is not grindhouse fanfiction is delusional. Some great things came out of it. Dark Forces games, Jedi Academy, Battlefronts, I own the entire run of Dark Horse, etc...

 

The Marvel movies have been done very well for the most part and I have seen little interference with the comics or the other side. I see no reason to worry at this time. Sorry your EU is dead but that has been coming from day one. Now I think I will dig out my original Dark Forces disks and have some fun.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

"apparent belief" are you talking about before when they did nothing related or after they own the IP?

 

First the entire EU is a product. Lucas let people use Star Wars because he got paid either way and to pretend the majority is not grindhouse fanfiction is delusional. Some great things came out of it. Dark Forces games, Jedi Academy, Battlefronts, I own the entire run of Dark Horse, etc...

 

The Marvel movies have been done very well for the most part and I have seen little interference with the comics or the other side. I see no reason to worry at this time. Sorry your EU is dead but that has been coming from day one. Now I think I will dig out my original Dark Forces disks and have some fun.

 

The majority of the EU wasn't grindhouse fanfiction. To say otherwise in the face of licensing and a team built at LucasFilm and paid to put all the works into one singular timeline by authors all commissioned by LF kind of completely confirms that none of the works were fanfiction.

 

It wasn't coming until Disney got their hands on the franchise and decided to change up everything like a jealous child wanting the story to be about how they wanted it to be and be damned with the original ways. The success of the Marvel Movies is not a valid point, considering that they're not related to the Star Wars universe in any way beyond a deal to make new comic books. 

[addiction21]

The majority of the EU wasn't grindhouse fanfiction. To say otherwise in the face of licensing and a team built at LucasFilm and paid to put all the works into one singular timeline by authors all commissioned by LF kind of completely confirms that none of the works were fanfiction.

 

It wasn't coming until Disney got their hands on the franchise and decided to change up everything like a jealous child wanting the story to be about how they wanted it to be and be damned with the original ways. The success of the Marvel Movies is not a valid point, considering that they're not related to the Star Wars universe in any way beyond a deal to make new comic books. 

 

Organized and lawered up fanfiction is still fanfiction. Off shoots like games and comics are one thing but the novels they were churning out 6+ a year for a decade that makes up the majority of the EU are just **** fan fiction.

 

And yes Marvel is a valid point because its been shown they can make "mature" movies and do not interfere with other sides of that IP.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Organized and lawered up fanfiction is still fanfiction. Off shoots like games and comics are one thing but the novels they were churning out 6+ a year for a decade that makes up the majority of the EU are just **** fan fiction.

 

And yes Marvel is a valid point because its been shown they can make "mature" movies and do not interfere with other sides of that IP.

 

Considering that it was considered official (it had to be) and sanctioned and commissioned by LF, it was, by definition, not fanfiction. You defining it as such means that you're dismissing it because you didn't like it. Plus, that's a no-true-scot fallacy, considering that your own comics produced much more than 6+ a year and you're not judging it as fanfiction, which goes against your definition of it. Officially licensed, sanctioned, and acknowledged by LF (which everything was) does not equal fanfiction. 

 

It's not a valid point because of one little token: Marvel Films aren't making the Star Wars films. They're making the Star Wars comics based on the story that Disney wants them to make. There really isn't a huge room for leeway there. So your point is invalidated because you're defining how an un-involved fellow subsidiary of Disney is handling their own in-house productions.

[addiction21]

Considering that it was considered official (it had to be) and sanctioned and commissioned by LF, it was, by definition, not fanfiction. You defining it as such means that you're dismissing it because you didn't like it. Plus, that's a no-true-scot fallacy, considering that your own comics produced much more than 6+ a year and you're not judging it as fanfiction, which goes against your definition of it. Officially licensed, sanctioned, and acknowledged by LF (which everything was) does not equal fanfiction. 

 

It's not a valid point because of one little token: Marvel Films aren't making the Star Wars films. They're making the Star Wars comics based on the story that Disney wants them to make. There really isn't a huge room for leeway there. So your point is invalidated because you're defining how an un-involved fellow subsidiary of Disney is handling their own in-house productions.

 

Nothing outside the movies has ever been considered "official canon".  Prove me otherwise... you cant. I dismiss it because huge swaths of the EU is ****. Conveyer belt mass produced crap that will sell just because it has "Star Wars" on the cover.

 

I never said my comics were not anything else.Hell I only knew of them because I was a fan of comics and Star Wars. Some are good some are bad but again they all exist because Star Wars sells.

 

It does not matter if it was ever sanctioned by a Lucas studio since the god almighty of the time had made it clear (that would be Lucas himself) nothing outside the movies mattered. The EU has always been a printing press and on the chopping block. That's all it ever existed for.

 

And for the topic at hand I still don't think what will come after this change of IP holders will diminish how "mature" whatever comes after. I tend to judge that by piece by piece and what material and how it is handled. Winter Solider might be a pg-13 movie but it deals with some heavy stuff just like Frozen might be a cartoon but again has some mature material in there.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Nothing outside the movies has ever been considered "official canon".  Prove me otherwise... you cant. I dismiss it because huge swaths of the EU is ****. Conveyer belt mass produced crap that will sell just because it has "Star Wars" on the cover.

 

I never said my comics were not anything else.Hell I only knew of them because I was a fan of comics and Star Wars. Some are good some are bad but again they all exist because Star Wars sells.

 

It does not matter if it was ever sanctioned by a Lucas studio since the god almighty of the time had made it clear (that would be Lucas himself) nothing outside the movies mattered. The EU has always been a printing press and on the chopping block. That's all it ever existed for.

 

The words and statements by LucasFilm? The Holocron community created by LucasFilm and hired by Lucas himself to handle continuity? Lucas may not have ever been into the EU himself, but he didn't decry it as non-canon, and he did personally dictate what era's the EU could write about. For starters, he didn't want anybody writing about the early life of Vader so that he could tell his story. He was the one who personally approved Chewbacca's death in Vector Prime? What authority will you accept? You seem to be willfully dismissing any evidence based 'ALL THE BOOKS ARE SH*T PIECES OF MASS PRODUCED GARBAGE!!!' While that's your prerogative (and I certainly completely disagree), you have no basis for calling it fanfiction because I have provided irrefutable evidence to the contrary. If it was fanfiction, LF would never have sanctioned to have the Star Wars logo or LF books stamp placed on each and every novel. Your argument to this point is dead. 

 

And yes, Star Wars does sell. But you're cherry picking what is canon and what isn't. You say that the books weren't canon and were fanfiction (while being officially sanctioned and published, thus proving you false) while the comics are canon and arbitrarily 'separate' based on your own opinion of the works (while also being officially sanctioned, as well as both being interconnected with each other, with the comics referencing events in the books and vice versa. Honestly, did you ever even read any of the books?

 

That's completely untrue. Lucas only stated that the only part of the saga he was interested in handling was his own stories, and, while not being involved or personally interested in any other stories, admitted that he had created a universe for others to create their own windows and interpretations into and for other stories to be told. If he had stated that the EU was completely non-canon and not true, he never would have approved of the licensing for it in the first place, for other stories to be told outside his own.

[addiction21]

The words and statements by LucasFilm? The Holocron community created by LucasFilm and hired by Lucas himself to handle continuity? Lucas may not have ever been into the EU himself, but he didn't decry it as non-canon, and he did personally dictate what era's the EU could write about. For starters, he didn't want anybody writing about the early life of Vader so that he could tell his story. He was the one who personally approved Chewbacca's death in Vector Prime? What authority will you accept? You seem to be willfully dismissing any evidence based 'ALL THE BOOKS ARE SH*T PIECES OF MASS PRODUCED GARBAGE!!!' While that's your prerogative (and I certainly completely disagree), you have no basis for calling it fanfiction because I have provided irrefutable evidence to the contrary. If it was fanfiction, LF would never have sanctioned to have the Star Wars logo or LF books stamp placed on each and every novel. Your argument to this point is dead. 

 

And yes, Star Wars does sell. But you're cherry picking what is canon and what isn't. You say that the books weren't canon and were fanfiction (while being officially sanctioned and published, thus proving you false) while the comics are canon and arbitrarily 'separate' based on your own opinion of the works (while also being officially sanctioned, as well as both being interconnected with each other, with the comics referencing events in the books and vice versa. Honestly, did you ever even read any of the books?

 

That's completely untrue. Lucas only stated that the only part of the saga he was interested in handling was his own stories, and, while not being involved or personally interested in any other stories, admitted that he had created a universe for others to create their own windows and interpretations into and for other stories to be told. If he had stated that the EU was completely non-canon and not true, he never would have approved of the licensing for it in the first place, for other stories to be told outside his own.

 

 

First you need to reign it in a bit. First I have not and tried to make clear I do not find all the books to be **** but around the late 90's they opted to mass produce series. Most of Tim Zahns, Splinter of the Minds Eye and X-wing series are some of my favorites.

So why was it all left on the chopping block? Really all of that huge EU was just left in the air. How important must it of been? Lucas liked to be lazy and collect the checks but do you really believe if he said "cut it I am making a episode 7" any of this would be different?

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

First you need to reign it in a bit. First I have not and tried to make clear I do not find all the books to be **** but around the late 90's they opted to mass produce series. Most of Tim Zahns, Splinter of the Minds Eye and X-wing series are some of my favorites.

So why was it all left on the chopping block? Really all of that huge EU was just left in the air. How important must it of been? Lucas liked to be lazy and collect the checks but do you really believe if he said "cut it I am making a episode 7" any of this would be different?

 

Reign it in a bit? You're the guy who started swearing and saying that everything was crap. But seeing as you aren't addressing my point on its validity, I'll take it as a concession.

 

Why was it put on the chopping block? I never knew it was there to begin with. Lucas had said previously that he was retiring from the business and LucasFilm, so that really wasn't much of an issue. A lot of people thought it was pretty important, up to senior LucasFilm staff. Disney was the one who cut everything. If they could get away with it, they'd probably try to sell themselves as the sole creators of the entire franchise.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

If one can dismiss the EU because some parts, the more obscure and lesser known parts, are shitty, then can I dismiss the PT because the whole thing is?

[addiction21]

I am the person that wrote two sentences and did not need explicit violence to be mature.

 

And if you did not know it was on and has always been on the chopping block that is your problem.

 

Anyway

 

Star Wars (or any other franchise) does not need graphic anything to deal with mature subject matter.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Star Wars (or any other franchise) does not need graphic anything to deal with mature subject matter.

Well, of course. KotOR 2 didn't have any blood, but it's still one of the darkest entries in to the SW universe. 

 

[addiction21]

If one can dismiss the EU because some parts, the more obscure and lesser known parts, are shitty, then can I dismiss the PT because the whole thing is?

 

I do not dismiss the EU. It is there but IMHO the majority of it is bad. 20+ years since any of them hit a bestseller. Other then in Star Wars fandom do you hear about the comics?

 

The biggest legacy I see (outside the movies) are the great games that have been made... many after the prequels.

 

But again I see no reason why Disney being the parent group (if you drink soda you are likely drinking a Disney product. That is how persuasive they are) that side projects wont handle mature issues,

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I do not dismiss the EU. It is there but IMHO the majority of it is bad. 20+ years since any of them hit a bestseller. Other then in Star Wars fandom do you hear about the comics?

 

The biggest legacy I see (outside the movies) are the great games that have been made... many after the prequels.

 

But again I see no reason why Disney being the parent group (if you drink soda you are likely drinking a Disney product. That is how persuasive they are) that side projects wont handle mature issues,

"I dismiss it because huge swaths of the EU are ****." Sounds like you kinda did. Of course you don't hear about the comics. People tend to associate Star Wars with the movies, for some reason. And they dismiss the EU because of that. Doesn't mean they're bad. 

Many after the prequels? What does that matter?

Do you really think the powers that be would allow another the novels to have something like the Vong again? Doubtful