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Anybody else uncomfortable romancing Merrill?


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#51
King Dragonlord

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 But alistair doesn't have anime eyes.

 

It's worth keeping in mind that merrill is an adult. Not sure how old she is specifically, but she already got her vallaslin before the blight started. And when put in situations where she's comfortable, she sounds a lot more mature. She's just mystified by much of the human world. You see that during her companion quests, she can get downright snarky when dealing with Master Ilen, and she's the only person to routinely get the last word when Sebastian tries to preach at them. Also the dlc implies that she actually plays up her ditzy tendencies with certain people.

 

I can see that. I certainly wouldn't call anyone sick or wrong for enjoying a romance with Merrill. She's a sweet character, that's why I got as far as I did with it. I hope there are more like her in games like this. 



#52
Thermopylae

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I think Merrill is supposed to be basically "nice" and slightly ditzy, basically the archetype of the magical? maniac "pixie girl" you see in movies, the fantasy version of the character Zooey Deschanel plays in "New Girl", who also happens to be involved with sinister blood magic and demonology, which possibly contrasts with the "nice" interpretation.  Her being an elf with the "celtic/ irish" vibe one gets from the DA "elves" helps with the magical pixie girl interpretation. 

 

I preferred Merrill because the alternative Isabella is somewhat free and independent with her affections and I kept on expecting her to betray me at some point. And really who wouldn't want to date a fantasy version of Zooey Deschanel  as an elf. Even if she is utterly committed to doing horrible, horrible things to do with Demons. 

 

I hope Merrill in DA:I is not so ah compelled to do horrible horrible things. 



#53
fhs33721

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I'll say that besides a rivaled Sebastian trying to be prince (which doesn't really count as a romance) none of Hawke's candidates are "normal." We have:

 

- a pirate ****

- an escaped elven slave living in a borrowed mansion who can't be bothered to remove the bodies

- an abomination

- a blood mage who looks like a 12 year old girl

As opposed to the completely normal romance options in origins?

 

-A witch of the wild that was raised by Flemeth herself in a very abusive way.

-A royal (most likely half elf) bastard that also just happens to be a grey warden and most of his friends recently died.

-An mentally scarred ex-spy that was betrayed by a loved one and left to rot.

-A assassin that was basically a slave to the crows and volunteered to take on the Warden because of suicidal tendencies.

 

Let's not kid ourselves. There is nothing even remotely more normal about DAOs romance options.


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#54
congokong

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You're over-criticizing the Origins romances; even criticizing Alistair who is among the most normal. You seem to be arguing that if they don't have a 9-to-5 job then that puts them in the same spot as DA2 romances. Some of your generalizations aren't even true. Leliana is "mentally scarred." Don't think so.

 

In DA2 the pc becomes rich nobility and then champion. Having restrictions to characters like abominations and women who are looked at as the "town bicycle" seems rather absurd. That's why Sebastian seems like the only typical romance option even though he isn't really one. Of course, you might dismiss him as you did Alistair since people he cared about recently died.


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#55
fhs33721

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You're over-criticizing the Origins romances; even criticizing Alistair who is among the most normal. You seem to be arguing that if they don't have a 9-to-5 job then that puts them in the same spot as DA2 romances. Some of your generalizations aren't even true. Leliana is "mentally scarred." Don't think so.

 

In DA2 the pc becomes rich nobility and then champion. Having restrictions to characters like abominations and women who are looked at as the "town bicycle" seems rather absurd. That's why Sebastian seems like the only typical romance option even though he isn't really one. Of course, you might dismiss him as you did Alistair since people he cared about recently died.

I'm not dismissing anyone. I'm just pointing out how easily I can present all the DAO romances as abnormal as you did with the ones of DA2.

And you are over-criticizing the DA2  romances just as much as I did the DAO ones.

 

Zevran and Fenris have a extemely similar storys. Elves that were basically slaves and try to escape from their masters.

Morrigan pracitces forbidden magic just like Merril (If I remember correctly she even says about the Dark ritual: "Some might call it blood magic" implying she knows a few things about blood magic herself. Correct me if I'm wrong about that though.)

And it's implied that Lelina sure as hell wasn't a chaste virgin during her time as bard.

The only one that is really more abnormal than any other romance option is Anders for being kind of  an abomination.


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#56
congokong

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I'm not dismissing anyone. I'm just pointing out how easily I can present all the DAO romances as abnormal as you did with the ones of DA2.

And you are over-criticizing the DA2  romances just as much as I did the DAO ones.

 

Zevran and Fenris have a extemely similar storys. Elves that were basically slaves and try to escape from their masters.

Morrigan pracitces forbidden magic just like Merril (If I remember correctly she even says about the Dark ritual: "Some might call it blood magic" implying she knows a few things about blood magic herself. Correct me if I'm wrong about that though.)

And it's implied that Lelina sure as hell wasn't a chaste virgin during her time as bard.

The only one that is really more abnormal than any other romance option is Anders for being kind of  an abomination.

I mention that the pc of DA2 is a noble who also becomes Champion of Kirkwall. For them to get involved in a romance with an elven blood mage, female pirate who many refer to as a "******", abomination, or escaped elven slave in a run down mansion with bodies on the floors seems rather unbelievable. Sebastian is the only one of similar standing as Hawke in what appears to be something of a feudalistic society. I'm annoyed with myself though for even talking about him as if he were a real romance.

 

Granted, no characters besides Sebastian in either game have "normal" lives; the closest being Alistair. As mentioned, the pc's standing in DA2 makes these abnormal relationships harder to swallow; not to mention I think that some of the romance options in DA2 are even more out there; Anders especially.



#57
birefringent

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Nope, to me she is like Tali'Zorah in Mass Effect.


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#58
BronzTrooper

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tbh, I've romanced Merrill 3 times.  Once as a mage m!Hawke (Friendmance), once as a blood mage f!Hawke (Friendmance), and once as a 2-hander warrior m!Hawke (Rivalmance).  Now, thanks to the fact that my mind can come up with random dirty thoughts out of nowhere, as I was playing my 2-hander Hawke I started thinking about how Hawke and Merrill would preform the act and I imagined Hawke picking Merrill up like she weighed nothing.  That really threw me off for a little while.  I had never really thought about it before, but now that I have, I think that Hawke's class might affect how... appropriate(?) certain romances are.  Maybe that's just me, though.  * shrugs *

 

Also, I feel like Rivalmancing Merrill is less... pedophilish-feeling than Friendmancing her.  She feels more independent in her Rivalmance, imo.



#59
King Dragonlord

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Nope, to me she is like Tali'Zorah in Mass Effect.


Oh she blindsided me. Me2 was my first game in that series. I was set to romance Miranda but not very thrilled about it (I couldn't get behind the whole "I worry that I am only amazing because I'm perfect"). Then Tali came along and I realized I wanted this three toed rubber suited alien to be happy. It was weird. That's part of how Bioware got my attention.

#60
congokong

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Oh she blindsided me. Me2 was my first game in that series. I was set to romance Miranda but not very thrilled about it (I couldn't get behind the whole "I worry that I am only amazing because I'm perfect"). Then Tali came along and I realized I wanted this three toed rubber suited alien to be happy. It was weird. That's part of how Bioware got my attention.

That's largely why I initially romanced Merrill. Not because I find her sexually attractive (I don't) but because she seemed so lonely and I wanted her to be happy. I also thought she was really nice. Realistically, you shouldn't be in a sexual relationship with someone for these reasons; especially when it resembles pedophilia.



#61
AutumnWitch

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Merril deserve elven(especially mage and dalish) lover/husband who will aprove and support her researches for the sake of her kind, not some shem who live with mommy and uncle for more than 10 years and do not inprove his rerationship or get married, have a child and do many sh*t

 

Hawke does not deserve Merril

 

So you are staying a human couldn't support her and her people? I call total BS. If you love someone you do what you have to AND in fact Merrill sees that she has been "blind" to her desires to be so determined to help her people if they don't want to. Even Flemeth says to her, "No path is darker than when your eyes are shut"..clearly as a warning that if Merrill's continues down her same path it will end in disaster. Merrill knowing this at the end would find a better way to help them with Hawke.

I think if Merrill ends up with Hawke that means she has learned perhaps the best way to help her people is to help them in a different way. I don't see being with Hawk as an obstacle in that, in fact, being with someone so influential as Hawke would benefit her esp with opening dialogues with the human population. In all relationships there is give and take and I don't see why either one of them would not support the other fully. 



#62
LiquidLyrium

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I think the creepiest aspect of Merrill's romance is that she will show up at your house, even if you only ever flirted with her ONE TIME. Just once. Like with the others, you have to reaffirm it and stuff in the various companion chats, but Merrill just shows up, ready to jump into bed with you, even if you only flirted one entire time prior to that scene, and it doesn't matter when you flirted with her. Again it feels like... taking advantage. Maybe it was a programming oversight, but it feels really weird to me. I've never romanced Merrill as a female Hawke, but I have heard that it reads better. But there are still issues, the whole relationship is about control and is especially unhealthy with the rival path. Like with the arulin'holm "No I'm going to steal this relic of your people because I obviously know better than you even if I'm not a mage and know nothing of magic, so I'm just another Shem stealing a priceless piece of your people's history now." But that's okay?? Considering Merrill's entire driving motivation is 'restore the lost history of the elves' that is just so wrong and unhealthy.

 

I've always preferred the idea of Isabela and Merrill together, because Isabela is the only person to treat her like the adult she is--capable of making her own decisions and mistakes, and Isa is there to pick Merrill up again after rather than a match of 'I told you so.' No one else in the entire game respects Merrill's choices like Isabela does. And the friendship path just turns Hawke into a doormat kinda, like, 'here do this dangerous thing that might endanger the entire Alienage or all of Kirkwall and I am totally fine with your practicing blood magic despite the horrific things I've seen it do, what I've seen it cost countless mages who became careless.' Or 'Here I will support you 100% in your venture to restore this dangerous relic that cost you (potentially two) clan members!' Also there's Hawke's patronizing attitude towards Merrill too which rubs me the wrong way. IDK, there doesn't seem to be a good middle ground between the two. Maybe there is, but it's just such a minefield of discomfort that I've never really committed to her romance.

 

Like I did a 'Hawke sleeps with everyone' play through, but I had to reload and reject Merrill because it was just so weird. (That's the other thing, her romance wasn't broken at that point either, I think, which was super weird too. It's been awhile though, so I could be wrong, but I could still ask her to move in and I was like '.........this hawke has been a rapscallion and a wastrel and has slept with 2-3 other companions at this point wtf is wrong with you girl? really?') Again possibly a programming oversight, but it's another one that makes Merrill seem extra needy and dependent, when compared with the others who won't pursue a romance with you if you've moved on to someone else. Maybe it's meant to imply a lack of judgement (judement of Hawke, that is) on Merrill's part. 

 

I mean, it's obviously a popular romance, and I suppose other people must read into it differently, but idk, I've never liked Merrill's story arc with the romance attached to it, and it has nothing to do with her, but how Hawke treats her.


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#63
congokong

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I've always preferred the idea of Isabela and Merrill together, because Isabela is the only person to treat her like the adult she is--capable of making her own decisions and mistakes, and Isa is there to pick Merrill up again after rather than a match of 'I told you so.' No one else in the entire game respects Merrill's choices like Isabela does.

 

I've never pictured Isabela and Merrill together sexually, nor do I picture Isabela treating her like an adult... Rather Isabela's respectfully considerate. She talks to Merrill like she's a younger sister who has maybe just hit puberty. Isabela, despite being overly sexual physically and in dialogue, doesn't probe/push Merrill regarding sexual topics. Some people are polite and wouldn't do this anyway but Isabela isn't one of them. Ex: Isabela will probe Bethany about her sexual history. Why doesn't she do this with Merrill? It's as if she feels Merrill is too young for sex and/or too innocent. She'll only ever question Merrill about sex if Merrill is already romancing Hawke.

 

 

I agree that it shows Merrill's neediness when she comes to the mansion over a single flirt. Only Isabela is that easy. Anders/Fenris need a lot of build-up. Maybe this isn't true on rivalry, but there's indication that Merrill is in love with Hawke even unromanced by their last words in the game.

 

"Hawke, before we go. I..."

 

I've wondered what that meant.



#64
LiquidLyrium

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 nor do I picture Isabela treating her like an adult... Rather Isabela's respectfully considerate. She talks to Merrill like she's a younger sister who has maybe just hit puberty. Isabela, despite being overly sexual physically and in dialogue, doesn't probe/push Merrill regarding sexual topics. Some people are polite and wouldn't do this anyway but Isabela isn't one of them. Ex: Isabela will probe Bethany about her sexual history. Why doesn't she do this with Merrill? It's as if she feels Merrill is too young for sex and/or too innocent. She'll only ever question Merrill about sex if Merrill is already romancing Hawke.

 

That's not strictly true though re: the sex thing, especially when she realizes (I think in the DLC) that Merrill and Carver had crushes on each other. Like she doesn't talk about the two of them getting it on, but she clearly recognizes that Merrill had desires there Nevermind I looked it up that was a conversation with Carver hahaha.. But also if Hawke and Merrill are romanced there are various comments, but also Merrill asks her about her exploits--which also show that Merrill views sex as a more intimate thing. (Which is understandable, if you're part of a dying race, the emphasis is probably on 'sound family units to best raise what few of us there are' rather than 'have lots of children we can't sustain.') Or when Isabela is describing how sailing feels. ("Sailing is like sex, do it wrong, and it'll make you sick. Do it right, and there's no feeling like it.") Let's also not forget though, that Merrill tries to peek at Anders' grimoires in case they had any fun or dirty spells in them--whether or not she's in a relationship with Hawke haha. I mean I have a bff for life. Sometimes we talk about our sex lives, sometimes we don't. It might also be because Merrill is already so out of place and uncomfortable living away from her clan, that Isabela eases up around Merrill. She's already lost and unaware of what is normal in human relations and etiquette, Isa's probably more concerned with trying to help her friend adjust to her new life. (Again, it's much later in Act III, that's when she teases Merrill about her sex life with Hawke. When Merrill is more stable and comfortable in her place in the world.) 

 

Also I think we differ fundamentally on what it means to be treated like an adult. If someone treats you like an adult, they will respect the decisions you make, even if they don't agree with them. They will offer advice, especially if you're close friends, but they still respect your right to go your own way. They allow you to make your own mistakes and grow from them, to make decisions for yourself about your own life. I realize a lot of the problems I have with Merrill's romance arc are rather artificial because the agency of the player trumps that of the fictional characters, but it still doesn't read well. Being treated like an adult does not mean talking about sex with someone, in my opinion.



#65
Riven326

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Yeah... I never once got the impression of Merrill and Isabela together. I did, however, get the impression of Isabela and pretty much everything else that walks and talks.


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#66
SmilesJA

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I mention that the pc of DA2 is a noble who also becomes Champion of Kirkwall. For them to get involved in a romance with an elven blood mage, female pirate who many refer to as a "******", abomination, or escaped elven slave in a run down mansion with bodies on the floors seems rather unbelievable. Sebastian is the only one of similar standing as Hawke in what appears to be something of a feudalistic society. I'm annoyed with myself though for even talking about him as if he were a real romance.

 

Granted, no characters besides Sebastian in either game have "normal" lives; the closest being Alistair. As mentioned, the pc's standing in DA2 makes these abnormal relationships harder to swallow; not to mention I think that some of the romance options in DA2 are even more out there; Anders especially.

 

Each romance in Dragon Age has a lot of baggage. The only romance that is close to "normal" is Allistair. I wouldn't paint Origins romances as "sane".



#67
Sifr

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Merril deserve elven(especially mage and dalish) lover/husband who will aprove and support her researches for the sake of her kind, not some shem who live with mommy and uncle for more than 10 years and do not inprove his rerationship or get married, have a child and do many sh*t

 

Hawke does not deserve Merril

 

Except the rivalmance (and even rival friendship) has Hawke conflict with Merrill because they're trying to make her see that her obsession with the Eluvian is damaging her life. While it's easy to do the friendship path and you want to because she's sweet, you're basically coddling her and agreeing that her obsession is more important than everything else in her life and she is right to put her own life in danger to try to restore an old mirror that even her Keeper thought she have stayed buried with the past.

 

It's not about the Blood Magic, that's only part of the problem and while Hawke can berate her for it, the real problem is the Eluvian. She's neglecting her friendships with people (if you don't romance her, Varric has to bring food to her because she becomes a complete shut-in and forgets to eat) and has become ostracised from her own people because she's too stubborn to let it go.

 

While restoring the Eluvian would be a great boon to her people and I can both understand and see why she wants to do it for the sake of understanding lost Elven knowledge, the truth is that a normal person would not see a broken mirror that was corrupted by the Darkspawn Taint that requires seeking out a Demon and learning Blood Magic to cleanse it, as being a worthwhile endeavour.

 

As for living with his/her parents, dialogue with Aveline in Act 1 implies that Hawke wasn't still living at home before their family fled Lothering (although it's suggested they still lived near), but returned either to fight in the King's army or make sure the family got out of Lothering safely. In Act 1, the entire family is forced to live with Gamlen in his shack in the slums, which is far better than some refugees who were forced to live on the streets or in Darktown. By Act 2, Hawke has bought back the estate for both themselves and a gift for their mother, so she can live the rest of her life (unfortunately, far shorter than anyone could have dreamed) in comfort in her childhood home.

 

And if I can speculate for a moment, part of the reason that Hawke might not mind everyone living in their estate and is willing to also take in Bodahn, Sandal, Orana and their love interest is because otherwise it'd just be them and their mother living in a great big empty house. We know that most of the nobles in Hightown have tons of servants, guards etc and most of the other noble's estates we enter into are huge, so the small scale of the Hawke Estate is incongruous given that we also know the Amells were once powerful enough to nearly take the Viscouncy for themselves. That and the fact it has wine cellars that reach all the way down to Darktown suggest that we only ever see a fraction of the Esate in the game and in reality, the place is absolutely massive.

 

I'd also disagree that Hawke's relationship with Merrill should be measured on whether or not they get married or have children. Most couples in our world neither get married or have children, either by choice or otherwise (and in some countries, to be married to someone of the same sex is nigh impossible), but that doesn't make their relationships any less important.

 

I also have to point out that Merrill is Dalish and believes in the Creators and Hawke (nominally) follows the Andrastian religion and believes in the Maker. Asking her to get married in the Chantry is probably out of the question, since I doubt Merrill would want to get married in the church of the Shemlen God, nor do I doubt anyone would even agree to conduct the ceremony anyway, since the Dalish are often considered "heathens" by the more pious of the clergy?

 

Asking for a Dalish ceremony is also out, given that we know that many Dalish frown on their people fraternising with Shemlen (Arianna had to leave her clan because of it) and even though Marethari's clan are somewhat more tolerant, I suspect that most of her clan would frown on it simply because it's something that Merrill wanted to do.

 

You're also ignoring the brave step that Hawke and Merrill take as a prominent couple in Kirkwall. It's common knowledge that many people in Thedas have their odd dalliances and children with their Elven mistresses or lovers, but it's always on the sly and mentioning it in public is considered taboo, especially among the nobility. Instead, Hawke is a noble who not only openly lives with and acknowledges an Elf as their lover (and a Dalish Elf at that), which is practically unheard of.

 

I think Hawke deserves Merrill as much as she deserves him/her.


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#68
fhs33721

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I mention that the pc of DA2 is a noble who also becomes Champion of Kirkwall. For them to get involved in a romance with an elven blood mage, female pirate who many refer to as a "******", abomination, or escaped elven slave in a run down mansion with bodies on the floors seems rather unbelievable. Sebastian is the only one of similar standing as Hawke in what appears to be something of a feudalistic society. I'm annoyed with myself though for even talking about him as if he were a real romance.

 

Granted, no characters besides Sebastian in either game have "normal" lives; the closest being Alistair. As mentioned, the pc's standing in DA2 makes these abnormal relationships harder to swallow; not to mention I think that some of the romance options in DA2 are even more out there; Anders especially.

You are forgetting that you have to start most romances in act 1, when Hawke has no social standing whatsoever and is basically a pennyless refugee that lives with her/his uncle.

By act 2 one s/he has probably survived quite a few adventures with the person s/he has a romantic interest in, which might create more trust and strengthen whatever feelings already were there. Then Hawke is supposed  to drop them like a hot potato because s/he is a noble now and her status entitles them to better partners than the people that constatnly help her/him with dangerous adventures and risk their live for her/him?



#69
congokong

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You are forgetting that you have to start most romances in act 1, when Hawke has no social standing whatsoever and is basically a pennyless refugee that lives with her/his uncle.

By act 2 one s/he has probably survived quite a few adventures with the person s/he has a romantic interest in, which might create more trust and strengthen whatever feelings already were there. Then Hawke is supposed  to drop them like a hot potato because s/he is a noble now and her status entitles them to better partners than the people that constatnly help her/him with dangerous adventures and risk their live for her/him?

All romances actually start in Act 2.

 

And yes, in a feudalism society (which DA resembles) you would "drop them like a hot potato."



#70
congokong

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My view of Merrill and the Dalish was that Merrill should give up on the eluvian as long as the Dalish stop bitching about how great things used to be and let go of the past themselves. Otherwise by scolding Merrill they're just being martyrs. They want to reclaim their history but it has to be on their terms without any risks? Until then I guess they keep whining about it.



#71
Milan92

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I liked Merill, but I didnt romance her, no.

 

Other than the fact that she is absolutely not my type, she is feels too young.



#72
sylvanaerie

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I like the Merrill romance, but then I usually rival her and she definitely comes across as a stronger individual when done so, one who experiences character growth.  Friendship Merrill seems to stay more childlike, more like my kid than an adult, and I really didn't settle comfortably into the romance till i tried Rivaling her.



#73
General TSAR

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Mentally, emotionally, and physically underdeveloped.

 

Plus Dalish Blood Mage trying to fix a cursed mirror.

 

Do not want. 



#74
Gallimatia

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All romances actually start in Act 2.

 

And yes, in a feudalism society (which DA resembles) you would "drop them like a hot potato."

 

Well Leandra was looking for a suitable bride or husband for Hawke regardless of his or her relationship status so she probably assumed that Hawke would drop the LI as a hot potato or at worst keep them on the side like Alistair. Sadly she found a suitor for herself first.

 

Hawke living with Merrill:

Leandra: The Reinhardts' second daughter is very interested in meeting you. :) | Those elves you're friends with, they're... rather strange, aren't they?  <_<

 

Hawke living with Anders:
Leandra: I've seen how that Anders fellow looks at you. ;) | Seneschal Bran has a son about your age. :ph34r:



#75
The_Other_M

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She has a quirky personality, a Welsh accent, and she's cute as hell.

That being said: She comes off more as a "little sister-type character" for Hawke, than a potential love interest.

 

Besides, I've always preferred Isabella anyway.

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