299 réponses à ce sujet

[yk1468]

Well I would like the idea for marriage in dragon age. Cause in my opinion it makes the story interesting, and when I mean marriage I don't mean a whole ceremony. No what I mean is a secret very quick marriage. And I don't think it would need a huge effect since essentially the only thing that would be needed to be changed would minor dialogue changes. And a new text in the epilogue slide if there is one.

If people want a huge animation than they should just make a mod.  

[JadePrince]

The difficulty, I think, would be in the writing and planning of the marriage paths. If you have 2 LIs (both bisexual) who the PC can marry (the minimum number which still allows gay, lesbian, and straight men and women players to have a marry-able LI), and the game has 4 races and 2 genders for the PC to chose from, that means writing 16 unique (VERY unique) marriage paths.

 

A marriage between 2 humans might be easy to implement. However, when you start bringing in the other races, stuff gets complicated. The Dalish forbid interracial marrying at all, so if you chose a Dalish PC and wanted to romance a human or a dwarf, marriage would either be impossible, or something that would anger a whole clan. A Dalish PC might have to be prepared to give up their home to have their marriage. Dwarves face a similar problem (perhaps unless they're surfacers). Qunari don't marry at all, so if you wanted to marry your qunari LI, that would need a drastically different story line than the others, since you'd have to convince him/her to go against their religious teachings. City Elf tradition is to not even meet your betrothed until your wedding day! 

 

Basically, to make interracial marriage work, almost none of the different races' marriage traditions could be upheld. You'd have to retcon or break them to make it work. And that's just for heterosexual marriage.

 

When you add s/s considerations to that, things get even trickier. We have no evidence that s/s is legal or exists in Thedas. It seems like Tevinter nobles are okay with s/s relationships with slaves, but they aren't going to marry their slaves. And if the society forbids s/s relationships between nobles, then I feel pretty safe in saying that s/s marriage is off the table. I'd hazard a guess that the Dalish frown on s/s marriage too (maybe unless the people involved agree to either father children for someone else, or carry children fathered by another outside their marriage). Dwarves have similar trouble with their population, so I imagine societal expectations means marriage is a heterosexual institution, where s/s relationships might be allowed to happen on the side (so long as you're still making babies). With the way City Elves get married, I highly doubt any of the arranged marriages are same sex ones. Who knows what the qunari think about s/s marriage. Probably nothing, since they don't get married at all.

 

TL;DR There are some really interesting and potentially cool stories that could be explored if marriage were brought into the DA games. They would largely be expensive, complicated and highly controversial unless the marriage was heterosexual and between two people of the same species.

 

I think that Bioware will probably try to stay out of the marriage game because to implement it would mean them taking a stance on same sex marriage.  Either they don't include it-- which would alienate their large LGBT audience, or they do include it, which would mean giving Thedas (and each of the cultures within it) a big push toward a set of progressive values that don't really mesh with the current (not quite homophobic, but definitely not 100% equitable) lore. 

[Maria Caliban]

If we have eight possible romances, I'm going to scratch my head if not one of them is interested in getting married. I expect romances to be different because companions are different. Some might want to have a casual, no-strings-attached relationship while another one may desire commitment up to wanting to take wedding vows.

For me, it's about diversity in content. If romances with different companions/advisors are all similar then that's wasted potential.

I don't care if the wedding is in game or not. It's the nature of the game's storyline that you're sort of busy saving the world. Though... perhaps a visual modification like they had in DA II, sort of an engagement token?

For those who are interested in (straight only) marriages: The Old Republic.

All of the companion romances end in marriage.

[JadePrince]

If we have eight possible romances, I'm going to scratch my head if not one of them is interested in getting married. I expect romances to be different because companions are different. Some might want to have a casual, no-strings-attached relationship while another one may desire commitment up to wanting to take wedding vows.

For me, it's about diversity in content. I see romances with different companions/advisors all be similar to be wasted potential.

I don't care if the wedding is in game or not. It's the nature of the game's storyline that you're sort of busy saving the world. Though... perhaps a visual modification like they had in DA II, sort of an engagement token?

For those who are interested in (straight only) marriages: The Old Republic.

All of the companion romances end in marriage.

 

Marriage or not, I hope we see the return of the visual cue that means you and your romance are 'serious'. I loved that about DA2. 

[Oldkoboldqueen]

Comparing people asking for representation for LGBT or other marginalized groups is not the same as asking for representation for people that value marriage for a few reasons.  Married people are not erased from art/media, they aren't typically victimized because they are married, and as such I feel a resistance with respect to being unfair because it isn't something we typically do in our games.

 

 

This goes back up to the top point of my response: opportunity costs.  Making content costs money, what's the best way we want to make content.  Deciding to not go into marriage content is a cost thing.  Deciding to not go into LGBT content (or female representation) is also a cost thing.  But to me (and presumably more of BioWare), I feel there's a greater problem with saying "We don't do LGBT/women because we spent our money elsewhere" compared to "we don't go into marriage content because we spent our money elsewhere."  That's not to say that people don't value marriage.  But saying "we don't want to include marriage in our game because we want to focus on something else" has a minimal cost on the overall representation of marriage in many societies.  I mean, I'm over 30 and unmarried, which typically sees me fielding questions as to why that must be.  So my own experiences don't align with the idea that marriage is disrespected.

 

Saying, however, that we don't want to include women in our game because we wanted to spend our money elsewhere reinforces the notion in media as well as gaming that women often don't exist, and are much less often in positions of power or significant contributors with a respectful depiction and variety of representation.  Within the greater societal image, we feel that's the wrong thing to do.

 

 

Having said that, I don't consider the ideal to be "all games have male/female and LGBT content."  The ideal is "gaming/entertainment is so diverse with positive male, female, and sexualized content that it's no longer a topic."  Consider LGBT content important criteria for buying a game?  Sure there's lots to choose from.  This game only features a female protagonist?  Sure.  This game only features a male protagonist?  That's cool too.  If gaming/entertainment, in aggregate (i.e. not individual games) is diverse enough, the individual differences between games become less of an issue in terms of asking for representation.

 

And yes, I have no problems saying I see a greater moral imperative to include LGBT, racial, or gender representation than that of marriage representation, at this time.  If someone feels marginalized or outraged because of our lack of marriage content in the game, they have the benefit of dipping into an ocean of other content that includes positive and healthy depictions of married people.  Not all groups have that choice, however.

Exactly, not all groups have that choice: like the committed gay couples that have been living with the cultural perception that all gay people are inherently promiscuous, or the asexuals who are completely ignored or accused of having a mental disorder because they don't want to have sex as part of their relationship, or people in polyamorous or open relationships who are often depicted only as backwards country bumpkins or emotionally-stunted sex-fiends. If you want to argue that two-person heterosexual marriages have ample representation, I agree, but I think it's short-sighted to assume that those are the only people invested in having a level of publicly-acknowledged commitment a la marriage or similar commitment/household joining ceremonies. I don't see this as a separate issue from LGBT representation, but yet another symptom of our societal assumptions of what makes a "normal" relationship.

I know you weren't addressing my post in particular, but I think to write off the entire concept of marriage as solely the providence of straight couples is inaccurate and ultimately doesn't serve your stated goals.

Granted, there's still a long way to go and it's unrealistic to expect any one game, no matter how well-funded or well-intentioned, to be able to address every facet of inequality in our culture. So, yes, we would like you to focus on having a wide range of well-written characters with different genders, racial and cultural backgrounds, sexual orientations, desires, drives, and goals. Yes, we would like to continue seeing strong, nuanced interactions between individual characters as well as between different factions of the world. Anyone who is expecting you to sacrifice these things for the sake of letting two straight characters have an animated church marriage is off their rocker and it's ridiculous for those people to then cry "unequal representation!" when they don't get it.

On a personal level, I wouldn't say this is a case of "unequal" representation so much as that the matter seems to have been missed entirely. So far, most Bioware games have made all romantic relationships essentially equivalent in structure. They're all monogamous, they're all sexual, and (depending on the game) either all lead to marriage or all don't (the one exception being Alistair, but given that he only marries a human Noble IF he becomes king, that comes off as more a political maneuver than an expression of commitment). There's little to no variation in the structures of relationships, even if there is variation in your options for partner, and there's general little to no discussion of what being in a relationship actually means to either of you beyond the implied (by the fact that your partner breaks up with you if you have sexual or romantic interactions with another character) monogamy. Saying "I love you" is not the same as saying "I want to have sex with you" or "I want to marry you" or "I want to have children with you" or "I won't have sex with other people".

tldr; Love, marriage, and relationships mean a lot of different things to different people, regardless of their sexual orientation. If this aspect of it isn't a beast you want to/can tackle in your IP, that's fine. Just please don't write it off as unimportant/unrelated to underrepresented groups.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Also, something that has left me kind of scratching my head at this conversation:

 

It seems that two seperate things are being asked for in the OP.

 

1) To have a companion love interest who does not want to have sex until they are married

2) To have a romance arc culminate in marriage

 

I don't feel like those need to be the same character? If one of the romances in Inquisition expresses a desire to wait until marriage for sex but the game never presents an opportunity for the PC and LI to marry, that seems perfectly acceptable to me. Including a marriage ceremony ultimately feels like it would be doing the same thing as most current romance arcs do, which is still forcing the relationship to culminate in a sex scene or at least, in the promise of sex. If a character who wished to wait until marriage had a romance arc where marriage was stated as the intended goal of the relationship (so, the couple has the opportunity to discuss the future they want together), I think that could potentially be better then seeing the wedding itself, since that would orient the romance arc around the idea of planning ones future with their loved one, instead of situating marriage as a barrier or obstacle to a sex scene.

 

Similarly, a character who desires to get married does not need to have abstained from sex for the entire game for the marriage to be meaningful (I do not believe anyone thought such, as I said, I just felt these two points have been paired directly hand in hand when they don't need to be). There could be a sex scene BEFORE the marriage scene for a LI companion, again treating the marriage and not the sex scene as the culmination of the characters time together.

[Steelcan]

The Founding Fathers I believe put it the best way;

 

Life, Liberty and the Pursue of Happiness to all, PERIOD.  

 

lets not go there

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well I would like the idea for marriage in dragon age. Cause in my opinion it makes the story interesting, and when I mean marriage I don't mean a whole ceremony. No what I mean is a secret very quick marriage. And I don't think it would need a huge effect since essentially the only thing that would be needed to be changed would minor dialogue changes. And a new text in the epilogue slide if there is one.

If people want a huge animation than they sould just make a mod.

Yeah, the dialogue talking about it and then just a few second ceremony showing your character, the love interest, and someone marrying them would be enough to illustrate the actual wedding I think. 

 

I think there's the risk of highlighting the lack of relationship depth that would normally be needed to start thinking about marriage. Just how many conversations do you have with this character before popping a question like that? Even if you can abstract the amount of in-game time and unshown conversations that have passed (though that would have been easier with the previous game's time skips), it would probably still feel a little sudden.

I see what you mean, but we already sort of have that problem with the current love interests becoming lovers after only 3 conversations.

[Ravensword]

I support political marriages in DA:I.. That pretty much seems to be the entire purpose of marriage. Oh, and tax breaks.

[AresKeith]

For those who are interested in (straight only) marriages: The Old Republic.

All of the companion romances end in marriage.

 

I didn't like that about the companion romances in TOR

[Steelcan]

If we are going to have marriages I would ask that BioWare bring on professionals writers and planners for such a momentous occasion

 

the idea writer for such a story decision

 

Spoiler

 

and the characters in game we need to organize it

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

and of course what wedding is complete without a killer musical score?  https://www.youtube....h?v=vU8eL2CjzHw

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If we have eight possible romances, I'm going to scratch my head if not one of them is interested in getting married. I expect romances to be different because companions are different. Some might want to have a casual, no-strings-attached relationship while another one may desire commitment up to wanting to take wedding vows.

For me, it's about diversity in content. I see romances with different companions/advisors all be similar to be wasted potential.

I don't care if the wedding is in game or not. It's the nature of the game's storyline that you're sort of busy saving the world. Though... perhaps a visual modification like they had in DA II, sort of an engagement token?

For those who are interested in (straight only) marriages: The Old Republic.

All of the companion romances end in marriage.

I hope at least one love interest in Inquisition talks about settling down or something like that. And I agree about wanting diversity in the story arcs. 

 

And yes, I would love the visual cues like Dragon Age 2 had. 

 

Also, something that has left me kind of scratching my head at this conversation:

 

It seems that two seperate things are being asked for in the OP.

 

1) To have a companion love interest who does not want to have sex until they are married

2) To have a romance arc culminate in marriage

 

I don't feel like those need to be the same character? If one of the romances in Inquisition expresses a desire to wait until marriage for sex but the game never presents an opportunity for the PC and LI to marry, that seems perfectly acceptable to me. Including a marriage ceremony ultimately feels like it would be doing the same thing as most current romance arcs do, which is still forcing the relationship to culminate in a sex scene or at least, in the promise of sex. If a character who wished to wait until marriage had a romance arc where marriage was stated as the intended goal of the relationship (so, the couple has the opportunity to discuss the future they want together), I think that could potentially be better then seeing the wedding itself, since that would orient the romance arc around the idea of planning ones future with their loved one, instead of situating marriage as a barrier or obstacle to a sex scene.

 

Similarly, a character who desires to get married does not need to have abstained from sex for the entire game for the marriage to be meaningful (I do not believe anyone thought such, as I said, I just felt these two points have been paired directly hand in hand when they don't need to be). There could be a sex scene BEFORE the marriage scene for a LI companion, again treating the marriage and not the sex scene as the culmination of the characters time together.

Sorry if that was confusing. I wrote them close together like that in order to list possible ways. So it was kind of an either/or situation with it being 'You can have some characters have optional marriage paths in their romance arcs or you can have characters who wish to marry before any physical stuff'. I agree that in those cases, the endgame should be getting married with the sex scene being the icing on the cake rather than the sex scene be the cake itself. And I'm not saying those who this should be available should only be that archtype. I only went that specific since we haven't had a character like that yet so would be interesting to see. There can be characters who have a sex scene first and then later pursue the wedding path as the final endgame of the relationship if the player chooses. 

[Ravensword]

If we are going to have marriages I would ask that BioWare bring on professionals writers and planners for such a momentous occasion

the idea writer for such a story decision

Spoiler

and the characters in game we need to organize it

Spoiler

and of course what wedding is complete without a killer musical score?

If only reality TV star weddings were like that.

[Bugsie]

The Founding Fathers I believe put it the best way;
 
Life, Liberty and the Pursue of Happiness to all, PERIOD.

Who are these 'founding fathers' of which you speak?

Blood sweat and tears and the broken backs of convicts, some free men and women, oh and sheep, is my countries heritage.

Lots of people died on the way here, most were in chains, and when they arrived, life was miserable (and all the wildlife tried to kill them)

Anyway, on a more serious note, sure, I don't mind if marriage is bought up in conversation, but I have no interest in seeing it actually executed in game unless it's story relevant (ie Alistair/Anora).

[PsychoBlonde]

Introducing marriage into this franchise would be a bad idea. Nothing kills the sense of adventure like marriage.

 

Bioware already has enough trouble with their games being labelled "dating sims". Let's keep the happily ever after in the realm of head-cannon.

 

Although I might agree to this feature if it advanced the plot like the DAO city-elf origin. You get married, you lose your spouse in a horrific George RR Martin style wedding. 

Heh, the arranged marriage (and your ability to have varying reactions to it) was the one thing I actually liked about the City Elf origin.

I think a chosen marriage to any LI isn't worth the amount of effort it would take to introduce it as an overall game feature.  And I don't think it makes much SENSE in the context of the game world, either. What does "marriage" mean in Thedas?  We've seen that the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves all practice versions of it (and the Qunari adamantly DON'T).  But it doesn't mean the same thing for the 3 races that practice it.  Nor does it mean the same thing to the various social strati of the different races and cultures.  For many, it seems to be largely about legal inheritance and producing offspring.  No romance involved.  Interracial marriages are probably close to nonexistent.  The only example we've seen was in the comics, between a transwoman Tevinter magister and a dwarf--and most people probably considered it to not be a "real" marriage (Varric being a notable counter-example) because there was no possibility of any progeny from such a relationship.  Did that marriage have legal standing in Tevinter?  Did they share legal common property?

And then you have the ceremonial aspect.  How are marriages officiated in Thedas?  We've seen ONE example--of a Chantry priest holding a marriage.  I'd assume that the Dalish and dwarves have their own officials, but can you even GET married as a human unless you're officially a member of the Chantry?  What about for people who might not want a Chantry priest to officiate at their wedding?

 

It might make for an interesting subplot if the devs decide they want to explore the concepts and culture of "marriage" in Thedas, but as a game feature it's basically meaningless, transplanting a bit of modern-day culture for the sake of some goofy romantic associations some people have with a word--not the legal structure, not the reality of progeny, common property, etc.  Just the WORD.  You might as well ask them to include "evolution" and "environmentalism" in there, too.  It'd make about as much sense in context.

[OctagonalSquare]

A marriage between 2 humans might be easy to implement. However, when you start bringing in the other races, stuff gets complicated. The Dalish forbid interracial marrying at all, so if you chose a Dalish PC and wanted to romance a human or a dwarf, marriage would either be impossible, or something that would anger a whole clan. A Dalish PC might have to be prepared to give up their home to have their marriage. Dwarves face a similar problem (perhaps unless they're surfacers). Qunari don't marry at all, so if you wanted to marry your qunari LI, that would need a drastically different story line than the others, since you'd have to convince him/her to go against their religious teachings. City Elf tradition is to not even meet your betrothed until your wedding day! 

Well, my elf will be anti-Dalish. Not a problem for me.

 

DwarfQuizzies are surfacers.

 

QunQuizzies are Vashoth and don't follow the Qun.

[JadePrince]

Well, my elf will be anti-Dalish. Not a problem for me.

 

DwarfQuizzies are surfacers.

 

QunQuizzies are Vashoth and don't follow the Qun.

 

I'm really talking more about future games (and assuming/hoping we'll still have our choice of PC races). I think it's pretty much a given that marriage won't be implemented in DA:I. Unless the devs were lying when they said there wouldn't be marriage or kids in this game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It might make for an interesting subplot if the devs decide they want to explore the concepts and culture of "marriage" in Thedas, but as a game feature it's basically meaningless, transplanting a bit of modern-day culture for the sake of some goofy romantic associations some people have with a word--not the legal structure, not the reality of progeny, common property, etc.  Just the WORD.  You might as well ask them to include "evolution" and "environmentalism" in there, too.  It'd make about as much sense in context.

I am curious why you call something that has been around for millennium as 'modern-day culture'? 

 

And it isn't meaningless to those who would want to see their values able to be expressed by their protagonist and shared by love interests. 

[Not a Cat Doll]

 

I am curious why you call something that has been around for millennium as 'modern-day culture'? 

 

And it isn't meaningless to those who would want to see their values able to be expressed by their protagonist and shared by love interests. 

 

It's probably in reference to the fact that the type of marriage you are arguing for the inclusion of (a romantically and often spiritually significant rite meant to signify the permanence of a "deeper" relationship than friendship) is widely considered to be an early 20th century development. Stephanie Coontz's "Marriage: A History," is good reading on this subject.

[dreamgazer]

It's amazing some of the stuff fans come up with

 

Which is precisely why weddings and the like are best left to fan-fiction and the imagination. 

[Allan Schumacher]

So I think perhaps I wasn't particularly clear with my previous posts.

 

 

If you want to call us unfair for not having marriage in the game then fine, that's your prerogative.  Someone can call us unfair for not having a particular weapon in the game and focusing so much on swords and maces or whatever.

 

But I am not going to tolerate making this issue equivalent towards underprivileged groups being marginalized in all aspects of life, including video games.  Suggesting that us making LGBT content is somehow "catering" and "focusing on them" is wrong.  It's us (finally) treating them the same.

 

 

I do not believe that not having marriage in game serves as another reminder to married people (or people that value marriage) that they have less worth in our society and do not deserve attention.

 

I do not consider the lack of marriage in our game to be a social justice issue (and by extension, that it's absence reflects a social injustice).

 

I consider a request like this to be a "nice to have" not an "ought to have."  That is, if it isn't included the level of offense levied is minimal, despite large amounts of people valuing marriage.

 

I consider equating this to asking for LGBT/women content disrespectful as it misrepresents that LGBT/women content are asking to be treated the same.  If you feel that we're somehow "catering" towards people that don't value marriage, you're going to need to convince me that this is a wide scale, prevalent issue among people that value marriage and that they perceive themselves as being reinforced of the reality that they are victimized as a consequence of being married.  I haven't seen that.

 

 

With respect to "no sex until marriage" I can understand that that may be a perspective that actually has more merit.  Although I do not have any information beyond anecdotal accounts, which are conflicting.  I do know that men are more often encouraged to be promiscuous and women typically are not.  But given that the idea of abstinence only education is still commonly taught and encouraged, I consider the perspective unclear.  I think that BioWare can address this by not making sex a focal point of a romance, and even include the lack of sexual content in some romances.  Though I do acknowledge that people can, and do, get pressured into sex before they want to and that that is a bad thing.

 

 

Given that I already had asked people to not continue down the avenue of injustice, and several posters insisted on continuing to do so, the thread is now closed.