299 réponses à ce sujet

[oceanicsurvivor]

 

 

 

Well, as Rel said we are using the dictionary definition of the word. 

 

Though I would argue that my part about adding a character who wants to wait under marriage before having sex does fit both uses of the word, since people like that are underexposed in a world which dominantly tells us that we are wrong or stupid for thinking that way. 

 

 

First of all, dictionaries aren't written with this sort of context in mind, nor are they infallible sources. Words meanings are constantly evolving and changing, and representation, on the internet and in academic circles is very often associated with the ideas and issues of societal inequality.

 

While I would certainly agree that Hollywood and media has not portrayed waiting for marriage as a popular choice, being married or waiting for marriage is not something that has gotten anyone erased from the history books, it isn't something that makes you a target when you walk down the street, and it isn't something that causes you to systemically be denied rights or legal protection.

[KaiserShep]

Though I would argue that my part about adding a character who wants to wait under marriage before having sex does fit both uses of the word, since people like that are underexposed in a world which dominantly tells us that we are wrong or stupid for thinking that way. 

 

 

An equivalent of this would be like me saying that the game should have more representation for those who really don't like cheese.

[Rel Fexive]

I've felt that marriage could totally be a thing added into one of these stories, if it fits.

 

Given the length of time that passed in DA2, you would've thought that'd of been the time.

 

Maybe if they'd had longer to develop it, those companions who moved in would've got a marriage cinematic if that option was chosen.  Who knows?  it would certainly have worked within those time jumps, like you say.

 

I'm not using the dictionary definition of the word, because these posts below were comparing allowing the player to marry in game to LGBT representation (which goes beyond including same sex romance options, BTW).:

 

Also, married characters are included in the game, so I'm not even sure how you could argue people who are married or want to marry in RL (I include myself as one of these people!) aren't represented. I feel like I'm taking this off-topic, though, so I'm not going to post any further on this issue.

First of all, dictionaries aren't written with this sort of context in mind, nor are they infallible sources. Words meanings are constantly evolving and changing, and representation, on the internet and in academic circles is very often associated with the ideas and issues of societal inequality.

 

While I would certainly agree that Hollywood and media has not portrayed waiting for marriage as a popular choice. Being married or waiting for marriage is not something that has gotten anyone erased from the history books, it isn't something that makes you a target when you walk down the street, and it isn't something that causes you to systemically be denied rights or legal protection.

 

We're just having a concept clash here, I feel, and I think we all get what everyone's trying to say as well as they are able to articulate it.  I don't think there's a need to continue with this aspect of the discussion now we know what we're trying to say.

 

So, how do you feel about marriage as a dialogue/cutscene option in Bioware games?

[Rel Fexive]

An equivalent of this would be like me saying that the game should have more representation for those who really don't like cheese.

 

Do you believe fighting against cheese loving to have been an important part of your Dragon Age experience?  Y'know, beyond Alistair's obsession.

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

I'm not using the dictionary definition of the word, because these posts below were comparing allowing the player to marry in game to LGBT representation (which goes beyond including same sex romance options, BTW).:

 

Also, married characters are included in the game, so I'm not even sure how you could argue people who are married or want to marry in RL (I include myself as one of these people!) aren't represented. I feel like I'm taking this off-topic, though, so I'm not going to post any further on this issue.

Since you used my post as one of your examples, I feel like I should clarify that me using homosexual romances as a comparing example was to show that people like to have companions and love interests like them in the game. 

 

We have yet to have a "No sex until marriage" character included in the franchises as far as I am aware of.

[Rel Fexive]

We have yet to have a "No sex until marriage" character included in the franchises as far as I am aware of.

 

We had a "no sex before or after marriage, ever" character, does that count?

 

( Silly Seb )

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We had a "no sex before or after marriage, ever" character, does that count?

 

( Silly Seb )

 

Actually, in party banter it is revealed Sebastian used to be quite the playboy before he took his vows. 

 

• Sebastian: I used to be like you, you know.
• Isabela: You used to be a woman?
• Sebastian: No!
• Isabela: That explains a lot.
• Sebastian: My family put me in the Chantry because I was giving them a bad name.
• Sebastian: It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I found peace. I found a purpose.
• Sebastian: Before I came here, I used to be out to all hours, drinking and whoring. I didn't believe in anything except my own pleasure.
• Isabela: Why couldn't I have met you then?

[Rel Fexive]

 

Actually, in party banter it is revealed Sebastian used to be quite the playboy before he took his vows. 

 

• Sebastian: I used to be like you, you know.
• Isabela: You used to be a woman?
• Sebastian: No!
• Isabela: That explains a lot.
• Sebastian: My family put me in the Chantry because I was giving them a bad name.
• Sebastian: It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I found peace. I found a purpose.
• Sebastian: Before I came here, I used to be out to all hours, drinking and whoring. I didn't believe in anything except my own pleasure.
• Isabela: Why couldn't I have met you then?

 

 

Isabela

 

And yes, I knew that.  I guess I was thinking more in terms of the relationship we see, rather than his previous ones.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Maybe if they'd had longer to develop it, those companions who moved in would've got a marriage cinematic if that option was chosen.  Who knows?  it would certainly have worked within those time jumps, like you say.

 

 

We're just having a concept clash here, I feel, and I think we all get what everyone's trying to say as well as they are able to articulate it.  I don't think there's a need to continue with this aspect of the discussion now we know what we're trying to say.

 

So, how do you feel about marriage as a dialogue/cutscene option in Bioware games?

 

True enough, I just wanted to establish clearly that the sharing of values with a companion is not the same as the sharing of identity.

I'm completely fine with it as an option as long as it is available to everyone (every player, regardless of orientation) and fits the love interest in question. I am fine with it being the only successful/positive outcome for that particular romance option too.

[Lady Nuggins]

There is something appealing about the "wartime marriage"--two people who don't know if they're going to live to see the end of the conflict, so they scrape together whatever they can find and throw a quick wedding before going back to their duties.  I wouldn't want to see a grand fancy white wedding, but a quick jaunt over to the Chantry or a ceremony under a tree with a couple followers scattered about?  That could be cool.

 

Question, though: what faith would it involve?  Most likely Andrasteism.  What if you're playing a Dalish elf?  Is it assumed that you've now converted?  Religion would be unavoidable in this scenario, because secular marriage probably just doesn't exist in this setting.  So how do you deal with all the people who don't want their characters giving up their faith just to be with someone?

[oceanicsurvivor]

There is something appealing about the "wartime marriage"--two people who don't know if they're going to live to see the end of the conflict, so they scrape together whatever they can find and throw a quick wedding before going back to their duties. I wouldn't want to see a grand fancy white wedding, but a quick jaunt over to the Chantry or a ceremony under a tree with a couple followers scattered about? That could be cool.

Question, though: what faith would it involve? Most likely Andrasteism. What if you're playing a Dalish elf? Is it assumed that you've now converted? Religion would be unavoidable in this scenario, because secular marriage probably just doesn't exist in this setting. So how do you deal with all the people who don't want their characters giving up their faith just to be with someone?

Well this content just got a whole lot more intriguing. Good questions Lady Nuggins!

Two Andrastians wedding doesnt sound super intriguing (personally) but asking an Andrastian to navigate their belief system with a partner who is Dalish, a dwarf, or who left the Qun and now doesnt believe or follow organized religion would be very intriguing. I don't know how that would handle given player input and variance...but that would certainly be a excellent story to witness between two companions as evolving party banter at the very least (if the writers can not make it work for the PC )

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is something appealing about the "wartime marriage"--two people who don't know if they're going to live to see the end of the conflict, so they scrape together whatever they can find and throw a quick wedding before going back to their duties.  I wouldn't want to see a grand fancy white wedding, but a quick jaunt over to the Chantry or a ceremony under a tree with a couple followers scattered about?  That could be cool.

 

Question, though: what faith would it involve?  Most likely Andrasteism.  What if you're playing a Dalish elf?  Is it assumed that you've now converted?  Religion would be unavoidable in this scenario, because secular marriage probably just doesn't exist in this setting.  So how do you deal with all the people who don't want their characters giving up their faith just to be with someone?

Yeah, I like that kind of thing in storytelling. Earlier I used the wedding scene from Mission Impossible III since I think that is a great example of that.

 

As for covering all religions, I suppose that if we lead an organization like in DAi they can just have a priest of that organization do it. Like someone who averse themselves in the wedding practices of the people involved cultures. 

[Lady Mortho]

A piece of paper and a ring is already in the games

[Lukas Trevelyan]

No, I'm not. I'm saying including same sex characters or playable female characters is more important to including marriages because representation is important to groups who are oppressed. While I'm not personally particularly interested in marriages in the game (and that's not even saying I would never make use of the option if it were available with I character I liked), I'm not actually opposed to them as long as they make sense in the plot and with the character. Hell, I'd rather have an additional romance scene replace the sex scenes, because I'm not interested in them, but it doesn't make me upset that Bioware decides to include them anyways.

 

Here's what I actually said.:

Just gonna reply to this and end it there. What I said in short is that same sex representation is more important to you because they're oppressed and marriage is unimportant because it's a majority, and that was exactly what you were saying:

 

Wanting marriage in a game is not at all the same as inclusiveness of groups that are actively oppressed in the real world. People who want to get married in the real world are not a minority and are not oppressed so they do not need representation. If Bioware wants to include marriage (which it has to a certain extent) for other reasons, then that's fine, but representation is not a legitimate reason.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

As for the cross-religion marriage, well they aren't really that difficult to do in my opinion instead of having the priest focus his words on one religion he'll focus on both. Actually come to think of it we haven't seen an actual marriage ceremony for any of the religions so it'd be interesting to see regardless.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As for the cross-religion marriage, well they aren't really that difficult to do in my opinion instead of having the priest focus his words on one religion he'll focus on both. Actually come to think of it we haven't seen an actual marriage ceremony for any of the religions so it'd be interesting to see regardless.

Yeah, the only one we see was interrupted by Vaughan. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

True enough, I just wanted to establish clearly that the sharing of values with a companion is not the same as the sharing of identity.

I'm completely fine with it as an option as long as it is available to everyone (every player, regardless of orientation) and fits the love interest in question. I am fine with it being the only successful/positive outcome for that particular romance option too.

So just so we can avoid this in the future, what term do you think is a suitable compromise? 

[DemonMajor]

So a very small fraction of the fanbase believe resources that would otherwise go to - important stuff - should be spent on a marriage mechanic because that's what they want? Good luck. 

In the recent "Freaking Out the Neighbors" panel, the devs discussed minorities in the player base and how they contribute to what goes into the game. According to their data, 86% of players chose only the "good" choices when confronted with options in the previous two games; and there were more female wardens who romanced Leliana than rogue characters. So according to your logic, Bioware should simply remove all "evil" choices and the entire rogue class. I mean think of all those resources sunk into those two things that could be spent on furthering "important stuff".

My point - and the point they make on said panel - is that just having a choice available has inherent value, especially in the Dragon Age franchise, in which decisions play an integral part of the game.

[oceanicsurvivor]

So just so we can avoid this in the future, what term do you think is a suitable compromise?

Id like to see my values displayed in the game? I want to see characters display values on sex and marriage similar to those I (and many others) hold in real life? Perhaps something along those lines?

[Samahl]

Just gonna reply to this and end it there. What I said in short is that same sex representation is more important to you because they're oppressed and marriage is unimportant because it's a majority, and that was exactly what you were saying:

 

Is it wrong to have priorities?

[Chron0id]

I want to marry Cassandra!

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Is it wrong to have priorities?

No, it's not. But that doesn't mean you should dismiss other people's priorities. 

[Samahl]

No, it's not. But that doesn't mean you should dismiss other people's priorities. 

 

I think it's rather that I would prefer BioWare to prioritize representation of a marginalized group over a group that does not face the same systemic problems. I am of the opinion that it is their moral imperative.

[DemonMajor]

Religion and sexuality would definitely come to the fore should this option be looked into. But after doing some very quick research (extremely quick, so feel free to correct me should I get anything wrong) I have found nothing in the currently known lore that goes against homosexual relationships, apart from being slightly frowned upon by certain races due to the inability to have offspring. Interracial marriages, on the other hand, face quite a few stigmas across each race, but as the protagonist and his/her companions don't fall under the umbrella of "normal" relationships, I feel fairly confident that the devs could spin the romance to accept such a joining. Of course, if the LI's backstory simply doesn't fit, then they could always race-gate like they are doing for Inquisition.

 

If marriages were to be included in a future game, it seems like they'd require a bit of resources, which I know always gets people riled up. But they also offer us a deeper look into the lore of Thedas. I personally am not much of a lore junky; I actually tend to ignore codex entries. Still, I appreciate the breadth and depth of the world Bioware has created - and is creating - for us, and every now and again will look up stuff on the wiki only to be surprised by the mass of the information collected. And despite all that info, there isn't much specifically dealing with marriages. It would be interesting to flesh that section out by allowing the player to interact with one (or several, if you run multiple playthroughs).

[Lady Nuggins]

As for the cross-religion marriage, well they aren't really that difficult to do in my opinion instead of having the priest focus his words on one religion he'll focus on both. Actually come to think of it we haven't seen an actual marriage ceremony for any of the religions so it'd be interesting to see regardless.

 

Would the Chantry allow for that, though?  Their belief is that all people must convert to follow Andraste, so would a Chantry priest (who would be female, btw) be open to even acknowledging the Dalish pantheon or the Ancestors or even the Qun?  Interfaith ceremonies are common in our time and place, but would it be possible in Thedas?

 

 

If marriages were to be included in a future game, it seems like they'd require a bit of resources, which I know always gets people riled up. But they also offer us a deeper look into the lore of Thedas. I personally am not much of a lore junky; I actually tend to ignore codex entries. Still, I appreciate the breadth and depth of the world Bioware has created - and is creating - for us, and every now and again will look up stuff on the wiki only to be surprised by the mass of the information collected. And despite all that info, there isn't much specifically dealing with marriages. It would be interesting to flesh that section out by allowing the player to interact with one (or several, if you run multiple playthroughs).

 

I'm not sure it would require a lot of resources to do a small, quick scene.  Especially if it's done in place of a sex scene.  Instead of the protagonist and love interest having an intimate time in a bedroom, they'd be shown walking hand-in-hand to the Chantry doors, or standing in front of someone conducting a ceremony, or exchanging tokens under a tree.