230 réponses à ce sujet

[Nukekitten]

I really don't see it as Isabella's fault; how could she have known the Qunari would sack a whole city over a book?
If an American stole some fancy European relic, and Europe decided to burn all of America to the ground... It'd be a bit excessive. Same basic concept really.
Also, tbh in Isabella's situation, I'd have done the same thing

Europeans tend as a whole not to have strong religious feelings. I'd suggest a more appropriate comparison would be if you went to Syria and held a Qur'an burning party. That'd be pretty bad. One can barely imagine how much worse the situation would be if it was the only extant copy of the Qur'an.

And you can expect people to pick up on even subtler things if they've bothered to do any reading about the culture of an area. For instance, it's potentially a bit offensive to go around in China wearing a poppy given the whole Opium War thing.

Same sorta thing. Before going to Rome Par Vollen, do your reading or make a difficult time for yourself.

[TheGusWho]

No, you don't understand anything about me and pretending to is presumptuous. I was just correcting the ignorance in your statement. That simple. Making any assumptions about how I feel about a fictional character by extrapolating my correction is erroneous. Thank you.

 

I'm a presumptuous person, it's true. And what correction did you offer, exactly? What I said was:

 

"Why is the fact that she had some mild sex-related disease (probably crabs, something that's really common even in the world today, and no, it's not a crime) make her someone so dirty that anyone who touches her has to be sterilized?"

 

To which responded with a unrelated claim about people who are infected with HIV. Your "correction" completely ignored the context of my statement, which is that the unintentional transmission of a mild sex-related disease is not a crime and should neither be assumed in this case nor considered proof of Isabela's moral quality.

 

If you want to argue my use of the word "fact" when I mentioned the severity of whatever disease Isabela had, then by all means do so. But don't derail from the issue that I was addressing (and which I let myself get sidetracked away from by your initial response), which is that people in this thread seem way too comfortable putting a moral value on sexual conduct.

[Schreckstoff]

No, it is the fault of that idiotic buffoon the Arishok who couldn't find his bum with both hands in the dark. His massive ego, incompetence and general stupidity is what lead to the Qunari events in Kirkwall.

I liked the Arishok a lot it pained me to have to kill time and again as I liked Isabella even more but exactly because of his flaws.

He had such grand ideas and I Agreed with most of his arguments yet was still a hypocrite. It showed perfectly that the Qun doesn't work as it's subjects are still driven by personal feelings and are just as flawed as every humanoid species.

[Dabrikishaw]

It'd be boring if the writers always had to write in a way for sociopathic players to kill every single one of the followers.

Why? Just don't kill them.

[The Hierophant]

@TheGusWho - tbh i thought she had the clap or syphilis.

[TheGusWho]

@TheGusWho - tbh i thought she had the clap or syphilis.

 

Huh - I always assumed that since it was meant to be a funny moment that it was something less serious.

 

Although this raises an interesting side-discussion about what diseases mean in the context of a world where magic can cure illness. What's the reality of having, say, cancer, if there's a way to get it cured by a healer mage? But I'm sure that's been brought up countless times in this forum, so I won't derail the thread with speculation on that front.

 

My point is that whatever diseases Isabela gets (because she has sex, har dee har har!), since she seemed to be regularly going to Anders to get them magicked away, she's a hell of a lot more responsible than, say, the people who infected her. There are arguments being made in this thread that her sexual health is a reflection of her character; I don't think there's any evidence that her sexual conduct is anything other than responsible and smart and pretty considerate, all things considered.

[giveamanafish...]

That's literally the holiest object related to the Qun. If the Qunari stole the Urn of Sacred Ashes you can bet your ass all of Thedas would band together for another Exalted March.

Wow. I suppose it's pick on Batman day. Your analogy is inexact at best. The Arishok went on a rampage without ever knowing who had the book. If I remember correctly, the general trigger was his disgust with Kirkwall society. The specific trigger was Eveline's demand that he turn over two elven converts who had been accused of murder. The result was a murderous rampage in which he ending up killing the Viscount who had put quite a bit of effort into accomodating the Qunari. 

 

'' I suspect someone in this city store or is in possession of a holy book" is not a justification for murder.Its almost akin to killing someone in what you claim is self-defense because that person looks threatening or spoke to you in a rude tone. This happens but is not a good thing that should be admired.

[Anarya]

Why? Just don't kill them.

 

It'd be boring for me as a player if I could predict with 100% accuracy how my every action would play out. As the PC, I can choose, for example, certain actions with the intent of killing, betraying or exacting punishment on most of the followers. What I can't choose is the effect of that action. So I can attempt to, say, murderknife Morrigan, but I cant control whether she actually dies. If I knew I could antagonize every follower to the point where a "kill" action popped up, and that, if I chose it, they would die every time, that'd be boring. But I see people wanting that degree of control all the time, and being bitter when it doesn't happen. 

 

That said, I think "surprise" outcomes should be reasonably foreseeable. Isabela escaping Qunari custody is a reasonably foreseeable outcome for handing her over to the Arishok.

[AshenEndymion]

Wow. I suppose it's pick on Batman day. Your analogy is inexact at best. The Arishok went on a rampage without ever knowing who had the book. If I remember correctly, the general trigger was his disgust with Kirkwall society. The specific trigger was Eveline's demand that he turn over two elven converts who had been accused of murder. The result was a murderous rampage in which he ending up killing the Viscount who had put quite a bit of effort into accomodating the Qunari. 

 

'' I suspect someone in this city store or is in possession of a holy book" is not a justification for murder.Its almost akin to killing someone in what you claim is self-defense because that person looks threatening or spoke to you in a rude tone. This happens but is not a good thing that should be admired.

 

When the Arishok orders his troops to take Kirkwall, and bring the Qun to them, he knows who took the book.  He knows because his troops found it, and were killed trying to get it back.

 

The reason why the Arishok doesn't just leave Kirkwall seems rather simple.  First, they have no ship.  Isabella took one(presumably stole it, but who knows), so it stands to reason that the only way to follow her is by boat.  The Arishok could take a boat, or ask for one, but why bother?  He'd get as much cooperation from Kirkwall as he has for the past 3 years.  Plus, with no knowledge of where Isabella is going, there's no reason to immediately pack up and follow her.  Since there are a number of coastal cities she could head towards.  Until a Qunari spy delivers her location, the Arishok would just be sailing blind.  And again, like Sten, he can't return home until his mission(collect the book) is complete.

 

The Arishok thought about raising Kirkwall to the ground and recovering the book from it's ashes.  He determined that such an action wouldn't be worth it.  Since the book left, and the Arishok has no knowledge of where it's headed, he has no choice but to stay in Kirkwall.  And if he is forced to stay in that pustule of a city, he may as well bring the Qun to its inhabitants.

[oceanicsurvivor]

^I'm pretty sure the Qunari were offered passage out of Kirkwall by the Viscount. They didn't/couldn't take it b/c of the demands of the Qun though.

[AshenEndymion]

^I'm pretty sure the Qunari were offered passage out of Kirkwall by the Viscount. They didn't/couldn't take it b/c of the demands of the Qun though.

 

They were offered passage when they arrived.  The Qunari wouldn't leave because they didn't have the book, and the book was in or around Kirkwall.  The Qunari might have taken a ship after Isabella left, but again, why bother if she's already long gone and they don't know where she is going?  They'd have to sit in one place and wait for information on where she went anyway, that place may as well be where they are now...

[Darkly Tranquil]

Other than some sort of King Alistair style shoehorned in cameo, I don't really see her having a reason to show up. It's not like noble causes are her raison d'être, so I imagine she'd be doing her level best to stay the hell away from what's going on in Inquisition.

[giveamanafish...]

 

...Snip...

The Arishok thought about raising Kirkwall to the ground and recovering the book from it's ashes.  He determined that such an action wouldn't be worth it.  Since the book left, and the Arishok has no knowledge of where it's headed, he has no choice but to stay in Kirkwall.  And if he is forced to stay in that pustule of a city, he may as well bring the Qun to its inhabitants.

 

I stand partially corrected. However, my main point still stands. As you said, "the book left". The book itself had little to do with the rampage ('bringing the Qun') at the end of Chapter II. That action seem to be solely based on the Arishok's whim.

[theflyingzamboni]

Plot armor gripe, huh? Since this is BSN, I can assume that this must be about Liara.

SEMI-CONFIRMED RUMOR: Liara to appear in DA:I. May replace Leliana as spy advisor.

[TK514]

I stand partially corrected. However, my main point still stands. As you said, "the book left". The book itself had little to do with the rampage ('bringing the Qun') at the end of Chapter II. That action seem to be solely based on the Arishok's whim.

I always understood it to be the result of ever increasing provocations on the part of Anti-Qun agitators in the city over the span of their stay, up to and including murder of the newly converted. Certainly there were other tests of the Arishok's patience, like Javaris, but he outright tells Hawke before the attack 'but know this, the provocations against us have worked'. It is not an ambiguous statement on his part.

[InfinitePaths]

I'm a presumptuous person, it's true. And what correction did you offer, exactly? What I said was:

 

"Why is the fact that she had some mild sex-related disease (probably crabs, something that's really common even in the world today, and no, it's not a crime) make her someone so dirty that anyone who touches her has to be sterilized?"

 

To which responded with a unrelated claim about people who are infected with HIV. Your "correction" completely ignored the context of my statement, which is that the unintentional transmission of a mild sex-related disease is not a crime and should neither be assumed in this case nor considered proof of Isabela's moral quality.

 

If you want to argue my use of the word "fact" when I mentioned the severity of whatever disease Isabela had, then by all means do so. But don't derail from the issue that I was addressing (and which I let myself get sidetracked away from by your initial response), which is that people in this thread seem way too comfortable putting a moral value on sexual conduct.

 

I'm not sure where this disscussion is going guys though I wouldn't worry about STDs in Dragon Age and I doubt It'll ever happen.

 

Perhaps the circle casts a mass STD immunity spell every few months or so on the town?

 

I heard blood mages can also hook you up with a contraception spell.

 

Bad jokes aside, I'm still astonished that some people here relate enjoying sex and having lots of it with lacking morals o.0.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Isabela was my Hawke's love interest as well. However, I would say that she is one manipulative and self-centered pirate wench. That is something you have to learn to accept / like / tolerate. 

 

She does remind me of...strike that...she is the female version of Captain Jack Sparrow...I mean if you take Jack, turn him into a woman, remove the weird walking thing and you essentially get Isabela. Both are good swordsmen, both copulate a lot, both drink a lot, both are willing to do anything to get a ship and both have some form of compassion deep down. 

 

As for her not having to pay for her crimes, I am not exactly all up in arms about it. Be it Isabela or Petrice or Loghain or Howe, the whole "people did a great deal of wrong and they have to pay for it in some way !" is a manifestation of karmic beliefs and/or "an eye for an eye" from the Bible. It is, IMO, a manifestation out of the fear that our actions don't really matter on a grand scale / scheme of things or it is a reaction to the unfairness of life. 

 

Sure, there people did mess up the lives of others very badly but the reality is, we live in an indifferent universe does not actually give much of a damn about morality and consequences of moral actions / immoral actions. Sometimes they get what is coming to them, sometimes they do not, sometimes we get to have a say in that, sometimes we don't. That is just reality.

 

Bottom line is, if you dislike Isabela and feel that she has to pay for what she did, then by all means, make her life miserable. You are entitled to that course of action. You can give her away to the Arishok if you wish. However, this is a dynamic world and expecting Isabela to not react to that is quite foolish. 

 

As for Isabela being promiscuous and ridden with STDs, this is Thedas, not Earth. They have magic and we here might, in the future, come up with some genetic / nanotech treatment that renders STDs powerless. In Thedas, a sufficiently skilled healer can essentially bring back someone from the dead with a Revive spell and heal groups of people in one go with a Group Heal spell. As such, curing someone completely of STDs, especially by a Spirit Healer, is quite frankly, a common thing there. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I think you can not put all the responsibility for what happened to Isabela. The crisis of the second act is a collective guilt of many people - Arishok, Viscount, Sister Petris, Aveline and Isabela, in the same way as the crisis of the third act is a collective guilt of  Anders, Meredith, Orsino, Elthina and Champion. Everyone had a hand in what happened due to their action or inaction.

 

Precisely. Saying that it is all Isabela's fault and therefore plot armor is not exactly very sensible. Crap was hitting the fan in that city and Isabela is one of the drivers of it, not the main one or not the only one. 

[Star fury]

Isabela had a "plot armour" only in one game - DA2. She was a pretty insignificant character in DA:O and we probably won't see her in the third installment(maybe a cameo). Why all the fuss? 

[CoffeeElemental]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Isabella from Rivain, which has been occupied by Qunari for quite some time. If I remember the comics, even her mother was Qunari convert. If so, she should know more about Qunari culture than any of your party members, and as such withholding information about the Tome of Koslun from Hawke when he/she is trying to deal with this crisis is inexcusable.

[TheGusWho]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Isabella from Rivain, which has been occupied by Qunari for quite some time. If I remember the comics, even her mother was Qunari convert. If so, she should know more about Qunari culture than any of your party members, and as such withholding information about the Tome of Koslun from Hawke when he/she is trying to deal with this crisis is inexcusable.

 

If you read the comics, then you remember that her beloved Qunari mom also sold her into marriage as punishment for not submitting to the Qun.

 

I'm baffled by the if/then supposition here.

[Vilegrim]

In all honesty, if I owed a debt to a powerful slaver because I took it upon myself to release his slaves, I would probably steal the book too, because it's not something I'd care to die over. I doubt that many outsiders would've predicted that the qunari would be such fanatical a-holes that they'd slaughter a city over a stupid bible thing.

 

 

Exactly..she got so far into the crap because she did the right thing   in freeing a bunch of slaves, she then stole from the Qunari to save her own skin later, which tbh is a far lesser evil, then the Arishok went full psycho over it....