230 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

I'll just point out that "plot armor" isn't the only thing that keeps us from letting you slaughter anyone you feel like-- as in "the only possible reason we don't let you kill this person is because the plot needs them for something really important, maybe in the future." If you really feel that must be the case, then okay, but I think you overestimate our willingness to indulge a player's homicidal fantasies.

[Killdren88]

David said it best. As the Philosopher Jagger once said. "You can't always get what you want." Thank you House.

[Oswin]

Unless she is there as Hawke's LI then I'm not really sure how she will fit in to the game. Maybe if you need to borrow a boat..

 

I didn't like Isabela at first, but she grew on me. Let's face it, your companions in DA2 are all a bunch of selfish A-holes. I have a hard time singling out Isabela on her selfish actions without putting them all on trail. Yeah. Not a bunch that I can imagine going to down in history like many of your Origins companions. 

 

Ah well. If anything I'm somewhat thankful for her selfish character. Thanks to her helping the Arishok to blow a fuse, Kirkwall got rid of that useless viscount. What a total waste of air he was.

[king jacky]

hehehe sea legs anybody

[CronoDragoon]

Even a survivor's skills has its limits and despite your reasoning I consider it quiet far-fetched.

 

Well, most notable escapes are, right? Whether something is logical seems a little beside the point when considering something like prisoners escaping from Alcatraz.

 

The Qunari were also primarily focused on brainwashing Isabela into the Qun, not killing her, so she would have been given time to plan and enact an escape.

 

I am sympathetic to the belief that what a player believes to be the consequences of their decision at the time eventually end up being the consequences. As in, the moral quandary of handing Isabela over to the Arishok is that you are dooming her to slavery or death. Had you known she would simply escape, then the choice basically comes down to destroying her friendship and subjecting her to a short-ish period of extreme discomfort.

 

It is not a belief I necessarily share. I still love the Collector Base decision at the end of ME2 regardless of how it affects ME3. It's a good opportunity to make a character statement, and I view the Isabela choice in the same light. In a sense, Isabela's fate is just a piece of the game event being presented to you: are you, Hawke, going to hand over Isabela to the Arishok?

 

In this way, you can find value in your decisions without eliminating the possibility of unintended consequences, or unforeseen results to a decision, both story choice aspects that I believe are perfectly valid for a game to explore.

 

 

Let's face it, your companions in DA2 are all a bunch of selfish A-holes.

 

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that. Isabela might be the only companion I would classify as selfish, in the sense that she acts for the benefit of herself at the expense of others. Anders and Merrill both act in the service of what they believe to be greater causes for the benefit of a targeted group of people. Fenris never lets his personal quest for vengeance affect those it shouldn't affect. Varric may be cunning and wheely-dealy but he never screwed over Hawke or anyone else for personal gain. Aveline may act selfishly in certain instances, such as changing Donnic's patrol to flirt with him (egads), but overall I think she puts others before herself constantly.

[BubbleDncr]

I've never considered Isabella to have plot armor.

 

Plot armor would be if you weren't allowed to make any choices at all that affected her, or if your choices around her didn't matter.

 

You can choose to give her to the Arishok, or not. If you do, she is gone from the rest of your game. Her escaping is just a bit of a side note - it doesn't undo your choice, because she's still gone form your game, and will probably have a grudge against Hawke if they ever meet again.

[The Baconer]

Anders and Merrill both act in the service of what they believe to be greater causes for the benefit of a targeted group of people.

 

Anders is the supreme douchelord.

[CronoDragoon]

Anders is the supreme douchelord.

 

Well, sure. But not selfish. I suppose we could expand the definition of selfishness to encapsulate a whole wide range of motivation (such as giving to charities being selfish because it makes you feel good about yourself) but I think the assertment would at that point lose any usefulness.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I'll just point out that "plot armor" isn't the only thing that keeps us from letting you slaughter anyone you feel like-- as in "the only possible reason we don't let you kill this person is because the plot needs them for something really important, maybe in the future." If you really feel that must be the case, then okay, but I think you overestimate our willingness to indulge a player's homicidal fantasies.

 

I was mostly earlier in this thread refering to the illogical scenario that Isabela manages to break free from her chains under qunari guard on a boat filled with armed qunari in the middle of the sea and somehow manages to swim through the ocean like a superhero version of Michael phelps with unlimited fatigue and manages to survive sharks, cold water, dehydration, starvation, high waves and so on.

If you have a logical explanation for this in a future novel than Id welcome it because as I said, I actually like her as a character. My main gripe is that even if she is a survivor plausible explanations have its limits.

 

Edit: I apologize if my "tone" sounds hostile btw, not intended - but my curiosity and wish for answers can come across as abit blunt sometimes. 

[The Baconer]

Well, sure. But not selfish. I suppose we could expand the definition of selfishness to encapsulate a whole wide range of motivation (such as giving to charities being selfish because it makes you feel good about yourself) but I think the assertment would at that point lose any usefulness.

 

I would argue that forcing the very people he is apparently serving to fight for their lives in order to tickle is messiah complex is selfish. That he is an A-hole in addition to this is simply a fact.

[Reznore57]

I was mostly earlier in this thread refering to the illogical scenario that Isabela manages to break free from her chains under qunari guard on a boat filled with armed qunari in the middle of the sea and somehow manages to swim through the ocean like a superhero version of Michael phelps with unlimited fatigue and manages to survive sharks, cold water, dehydration, starvation, high waves and so on.

If you have a logical explanation for this in a future novel than Id welcome it because as I said, I actually like her as a character. My main gripe is that even if she is a survivor plausible explanations have its limits.

 

Edit: I apologize if my "tone" sounds hostile btw, not intended - but my curiosity and wish for answers can come across as abit blunt sometimes. 

 

Maybe she escaped near the shore?I mean she's a pirate , she would know when she has the higher chances of surviving.

[Oswin]

 

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that. Isabela might be the only companion I would classify as selfish, in the sense that she acts for the benefit of herself at the expense of others. Anders and Merrill both act in the service of what they believe to be greater causes for the benefit of a targeted group of people. Fenris never lets his personal quest for vengeance affect those it shouldn't affect. Varric may be cunning and wheely-dealy but he never screwed over Hawke or anyone else for personal gain. Aveline may act selfishly in certain instances, such as changing Donnic's patrol to flirt with him (egads), but overall I think she puts others before herself constantly.

 

I see Merrill and Anders as selfish because they cause the death of so many doing what they think is best for them. It just always struck me as selfish of them to make the decision on behalf of everyone it involved.

You also have Circle Bethany who is somewhat selfish. Hawke's family sacrificed a normal life to keep her out of the circle and the moment the templars get her in Kirkwall it's all 'hey I wanted to go anyways.' Or would it be more selfish that they kept her from the circle to begin with? Hmm.

Templar Carver is selfish and ridiculous.

Sebastian with his army on Kirkwall just because of Anders is also ridiculous and selfish.

Once you find out Fenris wanted to become what he did, all his whines and actions start to boarder on selfish. Didn't he also kill a whole bunch of innocents on his escape? Gah. No wonder he hooks up with Isabela. Between the two I don't know who is more self-obsessed.

 

I'll admit that Varric and Aveline are only small time selfish. Aveline's selfishness only really applies when she nags Hawke to do the work she doesn't want her guards to do. Could be seen as looking out for them, or looking out for her own interests I guess.

 

I guess I could say the same for each of the Origins team. But I dunno, I always felt like they had my back. Whereas the DA2 seemed more likely to stab me in the back instead.

[llandwynwyn]

I'll just point out that "plot armor" isn't the only thing that keeps us from letting you slaughter anyone you feel like-- as in "the only possible reason we don't let you kill this person is because the plot needs them for something really important, maybe in the future." If you really feel that must be the case, then okay, but I think you overestimate our willingness to indulge a player's homicidal fantasies.

 

dat shade...

Yet killing Bethany, the innocent little mage lamb we call a sister (as Hawke), and giving Fenris back to Danarius are valid choices.

[Ashelsu]

You also have Circle Bethany who is somewhat selfish. Hawke's family sacrificed a normal life to keep her out of the circle and the moment the templars get her in Kirkwall it's all 'hey I wanted to go anyways.' Or would it be more selfish that they kept her from the circle to begin with? Hmm.

She didn't ask for this. It was decision made by Malcolm and Leandra, they didn't ask the opinion of their children. Family was keeping 2 (or maybe 3) their mages away from the Circle. Then Malcolm dies and it's only her. They escape into Templar Capital of Thedas, the last place any apostate would like to be. Bethany's family is struggling with poverty and danger of being discovered by Templars. Because of her. They are not happy. Bethany and Hawke are serving one year debt and then she starts to cautiously find out about circle. She probably surrendered  herself. Bethany just wants normal life for her and her family, no running away and being in danger, how is it selfish?

[Wulfram]

Isabela escaping is only rumours, I think?

[CronoDragoon]

I was mostly earlier in this thread refering to the illogical scenario that Isabela manages to break free from her chains under qunari guard on a boat filled with armed qunari in the middle of the sea and somehow manages to swim through the ocean like a superhero version of Michael phelps with unlimited fatigue and manages to survive sharks, cold water, dehydration, starvation, high waves and so on.

 

Sorry if this is posted somewhere in the thread, but where do we find out such details about Isabela's escape?

[Star fury]

I was mostly earlier in this thread refering to the illogical scenario that Isabela manages to break free from her chains under qunari guard on a boat filled with armed qunari in the middle of the sea and somehow manages to swim through the ocean like a superhero version of Michael phelps with unlimited fatigue and manages to survive sharks, cold water, dehydration, starvation, high waves and so on.

And you know all of this? How? Bsn is always full of bullshit.

[Star fury]

Sorry if this is posted somewhere in the thread, but where do we find out such details about Isabela's escape?

He's talking out of his ***.

[CoffeeElemental]

Tbh I think the real problem is that DA2 had such short development time. So some events do not have player input or happen off-screen. If DA2 had at least one more year then perhaps Isabela/Qunari plot would have been expanded in-game, giving more closure, instead of other media, maybe the player would be able to save her from Qunari ship himself even.

[Oswin]

She didn't ask for this. It was decision made by Malcolm and Leandra, they didn't ask for their children opinion. Family was keeping 2 (or maybe 3) their mages away from the Circle. Then Malcolm dies and it's only her. They escape into Templar Capital of Thedas, the last place any apostate would like to be. Bethany's family is struggling with poverty and danger of being discovered by Templars. Because of her. They are not happy. Bethany and Hawke are serving one year debt and then she starts to cautiously find out about circle. She probably surrended  herself. Bethany just wants normal life for her and her family, no running away and being in danger, how is it selfish?

 

I see Bethany's choice as a suicide. Circle mages don't ever see their families again. She chose, out of kindess to essentially become dead to them. If this is something they had wanted then they wouldn't have given up so many years of their lives to protect her, even after Malcom died 3 years before going to Kirkwall, leaving her as the only mage in the family. It's an insult to them, and why I always find her decision hard to swallow.

 

But I'm going off topic here. Baaaack to Isabela and her plot armour.

[In Exile]

Well except for a the viscount and a few dozen kirkwall citizens and that one noble that actually said, hey! you can't kill the viscount!  Oh and all the people that died due to their poison gas little trick because dumbo horns wanted to make Javarris tintop look bad.

 

We're confusing "wasting" with "valuing". We can come up with a justification for each of those actions that makes them coin well spent, so to speak. For example, that executing the Viscount is necessary to intimidate the population into surrendering and to establishing control over the city. 

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

If Im wrong then I stand corrected and apologize, it wasnt my intention to spread misinformation. 

Doesent Varric say she escapes from the boat on the way back to Par Vollen?
Edit: If this is wrong then my entire purpose with this thread is based on the wrong premise.

[TheTurtle]

If Im wrong then I stand corrected and apologize, it wasnt my intention to spread misinformation.

Doesent Varric say she escapes from the boat on the way back to Par Vollen?

She does.
I think the problem people have with your post is that you're assuming things about the details of her escape none of which we know exactly.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

She does.
I think the problem people have with your post is that you're assuming things about the details of her escape none of which we know exactly.

 

Well. 

She stole the most holy relic the qunari has. 

 

Being in chains, under guard and at the ocean is something I took as a given. 

[Vilegrim]

Escaping captivity isn't plot armour, it's plausible.  Leliana coming back from the dead due to...reasons that is plot armour.