230 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Well. 

She stole the most holy relic the qunari has. 

 

Being in chains, under guard and at the ocean is something I took as a given. 

 

Well, we have access to a similar scenario in the comics where Isabela is captured (and escapes). She's under guard but not put in chains, which seems curious until you consider that it is their intent to convert Isabela to the Qun as a sort of victory in principle, and failing that kill her. They use some sneaky-peaky brainwashing techniques which include trying to convince her that they are really on her side and only want what's best for her. Part of that might be not putting her in chains, like a sort of good-cop bad-cop interrogation technique. It's possible Isabela exploited their unwillingness to kill her right away to her advantage.

[Star fury]

Well. 

She stole the most holy relic the qunari has. 

 

Being in chains, under guard and at the ocean is something I took as a given. 

 

Jean Bart was a famous corsair and a scourge of the Royal Fleet and English merchants, when he got jailed by the Englishmen, he escaped. See similarities? Did he also have "a thick plot armor"?

[Ashelsu]

I see Bethany's choice as a suicide. Circle mages don't ever see their families again. She chose, out of kindess to essentially become dead to them. If this is something they had wanted then they wouldn't have given up so many years of their lives to protect her, even after Malcom died 3 years before going to Kirkwall, leaving her as the only mage in the family. It's an insult to them, and why I always find her decision hard to swallow.

 

But I'm going off topic here. Baaaack to Isabela and her plot armour.

 

I see "We sacrificed everything to protect you, how dare you to make a decision about your own life!" as very unhealthy family basis. The way I see it Hawkes went downhill after Malcolm's death. Loving father is no more and we have loving and supporting (well, more like always unhappy, snappy and jealous toward his magic-using siblings) brother Carver, always unhappy and bitter mother Leandra (who probably regretted not once about sacrificing her life of noble to live in poverty with an apostate mage) and Hawke whose career was suffering because having an apostate sister. And the situation became even worse in Kirkwall.

Was there an alternative? Yes, to leave Kirkwall, probably on her own. Yet she can't because plot reason.

 

Sorry, it's just something I feel strongly about, done with offtopic.

 

If Im wrong then I stand corrected and apologize, it wasnt my intention to spread misinformation. 

Doesent Varric say she escapes from the boat on the way back to Par Vollen?
Edit: If this is wrong then my entire purpose with this thread is based on the wrong premise.

 

Here is a video.

 

 

Btw, Arishok promises to return.

[theflyingzamboni]

I'll just point out that "plot armor" isn't the only thing that keeps us from letting you slaughter anyone you feel like-- as in "the only possible reason we don't let you kill this person is because the plot needs them for something really important, maybe in the future." If you really feel that must be the case, then okay, but I think you overestimate our willingness to indulge a player's homicidal fantasies.

I have noticed an odd tendency to guage "freedom of choice" in an RPG based on "how many characters can I successfully murder." I've heard people praise games specifically for letting them slaughter most of the NPCs in the game. I mean, some people criticized Skyrim because it wouldn't let them kill children.

Basically, what I'm saying is that is kinda screwed up when you think about it for 2 seconds.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I see "We sacrificed everything to protect you, how dare you to make a decision about your own life!" as very unhealthy family basis. The way I see it Hawkes went downhill after Malcolm's death. Loving father is no more and we have loving and supporting (well, more like always unhappy, snappy and jealous toward his magic-using siblings) brother Carver, always unhappy and bitter mother Leandra (who probably regretted not once about sacrificing her life of noble to live in poverty with an apostate mage) and Hawke whose career was suffering because having an apostate sister. And the situation became even worse in Kirkwall.

Was there an alternative? Yes, to leave Kirkwall, probably on her own. Yet she can't because plot reason.

 

Sorry, it's just something I feel strongly about, done with offtopic.

 

 

Here is a video.

 

 

Btw, Arishok promises to return.

Now I remember why I concluded that she was in the middle of the ocean atleast.

 

Despite varric not saying that out directly: they couldve still been at the harbour, until Varric says "three days later". If the ships hadnt left Kirkwall, as in Isabela jumping of in the harbour instead of the ocean - the Qunari would probably still be there. Anyway, I realize this discussion may have run its course either way?

[Nefla]

I thought this thread was going to be about Leliana.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I thought this tread was going to be about Leliana.

No that was just a fleshwound and totally plausible  

[Paul E Dangerously]

I thought this thread was going to be about Leliana.

 

I'm not the only one, good.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I'll just point out that "plot armor" isn't the only thing that keeps us from letting you slaughter anyone you feel like-- as in "the only possible reason we don't let you kill this person is because the plot needs them for something really important, maybe in the future." If you really feel that must be the case, then okay, but I think you overestimate our willingness to indulge a player's homicidal fantasies.

 

I don't think it's so much that as that it's one of those things where it boils down to a false choice. Writer A wants Character B to survive, so there are a few options, but they all wind up to one end result - Character B gets away scott-free. Nothing you do actually matters whatsoever.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do that at all, but it really comes off as kind of sketchy, especially when the whole "Choices will really mean something, guys!" has been pushed so hard.

[CronoDragoon]

I don't find it to be a false choice. In one instance you back Isabela and duel the Arishok for her fate. In another you let him take her and he leaves peacefully (ish). That sounds like a worthwhile choice to me. If the point of the choice was not to placate the Arishok but rather make sure Isabela suffers imprisonment, brainwashing, or death, then I'd agree.

[David Gaider]

I don't think it's so much that as that it's one of those things where it boils down to a false choice. Writer A wants Character B to survive, so there are a few options, but they all wind up to one end result - Character B gets away scott-free. Nothing you do actually matters whatsoever.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do that at all, but it really comes off as kind of sketchy, especially when the whole "Choices will really mean something, guys!" has been pushed so hard.

 

Perhaps, but I suspect it then lies with a difference between why the player's making the choice and the choice we're actually providing them. At no point is the choice "kill Isabela" offered, just as at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered. If someone thought the Qunari would kill Isabela, that's fine, but the fact they didn't doesn't change the fact that the choice was to turn over the person they wanted in order to get a peaceful resolution with the Qunari... which you actually got.

 

Thus saying "my choices don't matter" is like a shorthand for "what I wanted to happen didn't happen"... which is fine, as folks will want what they want, but I'm afraid you're not going to get much more than a shrug from the writers.

[Malanek]

Isabela has plot armor because a) she is awesome and b ) it is in character. She is a slippery rogue. Think Saemon Havarion (spelling) from BG2. No matter how many bad situations he got himself into he could (almost) always wiggle his way out of them. Just so he could get into trouble again.

[TheGusWho]

I'm really confused as to what makes you say that "at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered." when in DAO there is absolutely a point where, if you defile the Ashes with her present, she attacks you and you have to kill her. That is a choice that the game provides. Saying that it isn't there when it is doesn't make sense to me.

[Malanek]

Perhaps, but I suspect it then lies with a difference between why the player's making the choice and the choice we're actually providing them. At no point is the choice "kill Isabela" offered, just as at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered. If someone thought the Qunari would kill Isabela, that's fine, but the fact they didn't doesn't change the fact that the choice was to turn over the person they wanted in order to get a peaceful resolution with the Qunari... which you actually got.

 

Thus saying "my choices don't matter" is like a shorthand for "what I wanted to happen didn't happen"... which is fine, as folks will want what they want, but I'm afraid you're not going to get much more than a shrug from the writers.

Hmm, I actually find the Isabela and Leliana situations quite different. While I agree with what you said about Isabela, with Leliana you actually personally witness Leliana getting killed. It felt to me very much like an oversight and post-actively changed so the character could be be used again. Can you honestly say that when the writer who wrote the sacred ashes intended her not to be killed at the time?

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I'm really confused as to what makes you say that "at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered." when in DAO there is absolutely a point where, if you defile the Ashes with her present, she attacks you and you have to kill her. That is a choice that the game provides. Saying that it isn't there when it is doesn't make sense to me.

 

That is actually not your choice, but her choice in fighting for what she believes in?

 

I actually like that part more than most events in the whole DA series to date. Not the fact that she ends up dead, but because a character acts believable and is actually willing to physically oppose you due to staying so true to their character. There was no way the PC would know she would react that way, and that surprise was almost worth the buying the game alone for imo.

Edit: Atleast thats my opinion. I think that was masterfully done and executed. You dont "have the choice" really, unless you are metagaming and already know her response.
 

[Paul E Dangerously]

Perhaps, but I suspect it then lies with a difference between why the player's making the choice and the choice we're actually providing them. At no point is the choice "kill Isabela" offered, just as at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered. If someone thought the Qunari would kill Isabela, that's fine, but the fact they didn't doesn't change the fact that the choice was to turn over the person they wanted in order to get a peaceful resolution with the Qunari... which you actually got.

 

Thus saying "my choices don't matter" is like a shorthand for "what I wanted to happen didn't happen"... which is fine, as folks will want what they want, but I'm afraid you're not going to get much more than a shrug from the writers.

 

Understandable, but I've always found it a line that's a bit difficult when it comes to crossing. Kind of like DMing a P&P game, really. It's a bit of a pain to balance "What we want to happen", "What they think will happen", and "What actually happens" when it comes to choices.

 

The problem is that people can - and sometimes will - resent it if they feel like they're just being railroaded.

 

- DAO did a rather good job at avoiding this, except with that Leliana choice. Connor's fate is actually in your hands. As is Alistair, Anora, or Loghain's. Or any number of people. Or even "lesser" choices, like in Awakening with the trials. It doesn't always have to be life-or-death.

- In DA2, you feel more like a bystander than anything else, because so much is never in your control. That's part of the point, granted - Hawke isn't exactly the force for change the Warden is - but that game has a lot of false choices. You are led around by the nose more often than not, and there's not a great deal of deviation.

[TheGusWho]

That is actually not your choice, but her choice in fighting for what she believes in?

 

I actually like that part more than most events in the whole DA series to date. Not the fact that she ends up dead, but because a character acts believable and is actually willing to physically oppose you due to staying so true to their character. There was no way the PC would know she would react that way, and that surprise was almost worth the buying the game alone for imo.

Edit: Atleast thats my opinion. I think that was masterfully done and executed. You dont "have the choice" really, unless you are metagaming and already know her response.
 

Oh, agreed, it's a really cool aspect of the game - and you're right that it's not the in-game Warden's choice. However, a lot of people deliberately rig their playthroughs so that Lelianna dies at this point, so I would describe that as a player choice. I mean, even in the game you have the choice to change your mind based on her opposition to what you're doing, you know?

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm really confused as to what makes you say that "at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered." when in DAO there is absolutely a point where, if you defile the Ashes with her present, she attacks you and you have to kill her. That is a choice that the game provides. Saying that it isn't there when it is doesn't make sense to me.

Feels consistent with how Gaider remembers these sort of choices though.

[Wulfram]

I think people say their choices don't matter because they don't feel their choices matter.  It's not like getting a peaceful resolution with the Qunari actually changes anything.  Maybe Bioware will surprise me and it'll have some effect down the road, but that's not what experience has led me to expect.

 

Though giving Isabela to the Arishok is one of the better choices for that as far as DA2 went, because at least she's actually gone for the rest of the game.

[AshenEndymion]

At no point is the choice "kill Isabela" offered, just as at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered.

 
Great.  Now I have to worry about Alistair being alive and ruining Thedas for everyone, don't I?  After all, at no point was I given the choice to "kill Alistair".  I just gave him to Anora's guards...

[Star fury]

Perhaps, but I suspect it then lies with a difference between why the player's making the choice and the choice we're actually providing them. At no point is the choice "kill Isabela" offered, just as at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered. If someone thought the Qunari would kill Isabela, that's fine, but the fact they didn't doesn't change the fact that the choice was to turn over the person they wanted in order to get a peaceful resolution with the Qunari... which you actually got.

 

Thus saying "my choices don't matter" is like a shorthand for "what I wanted to happen didn't happen"... which is fine, as folks will want what they want, but I'm afraid you're not going to get much more than a shrug from the writers.

Leliana was too good to be killed. One of the rare cases where I'm absolutely fine with a retcon.

[David Gaider]

Understandable, but I've always found it a line that's a bit difficult when it comes to crossing. Kind of like DMing a P&P game, really. It's a bit of a pain to balance "What we want to happen", "What they think will happen", and "What actually happens" when it comes to choices.

 

The problem is that people can - and sometimes will - resent it if they feel like they're just being railroaded.

 

Yep, I get it. All I'm saying is that the bar for what one considers to be "their" choice and what one allows for the plot to determine varies wildly from person to person, and in this sort of case seems to rely more on how much they like the character in question. I'm not going to get into a discussion of choices in general, as that's typically a move-the-goalpost kind of argument on the forums, but feel free if that's your thing.

[Malanek]

That is actually not your choice, but her choice in fighting for what she believes in?

 

I actually like that part more than most events in the whole DA series to date. Not the fact that she ends up dead, but because a character acts believable and is actually willing to physically oppose you due to staying so true to their character. There was no way the PC would know she would react that way, and that surprise was almost worth the buying the game alone for imo.

It was a good dramatic part of the game but was actually spoiled in a magazine preview before the game came out. I cant say for sure whether I would have guessed that could happen but the player should have been aware that her character would extremely object to the action. From playing games like BG2 we saw characters actually turn on you so it had been done before.

[Killdren88]

Great. Now I have to worry about Alistair being alive and ruining Thedas for everyone, don't I? After all, at no point was I given the choice to "kill Alistair". I just gave him to Anora's guards...

Would like those sort of choices to have parentheses that say ( This does not mean this character is dead) Just so you don't have further disappointment in the future.

[AshenEndymion]

Would like those sort of choices to have parentheses that say ( This does not mean this character is dead) Just so you don't have further disappointment in the future.

 

On the plus side, it does mean that Merrill's clan isn't necessarily slaughtered.  Because there was no "kill Merrill's clan" choice offered.  I look forward to seeing Master Ilen again.